Several have said that they fear wars starting in Europe if the EU breaks up. - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15035153
I find the peace argument generally weak:
- Eurosceptics don't want to end economic and political cooperation in Europe, they just want to do it differently.
- In the past decade, the EU has rather led to strife, from the euro crisis to the opposition to a workable solution in NI.
- It's an argument that could come from the CCP: If you oppose us, you're disturbing the peace.
#15035157
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:The last proper war in Europe, and it was vicious, happened in a political union called Yugoslavia.


By the way, this is proof that the EU has helped things enormously.

Many of the ex yugoslav countries are doing as well as you can expect. The EU has really helped them. That was a pretty self defeating line of inquiry tou took up.

The Troubles were not a war but a terror campaign similar to that in Spain around the same time


You can use whatever terms for the 'campaign' you like.

But it's telling that you're saying the campaign was similar to ETA's.

You do know that Spain was Fascist in 1959 (when ETA started up) til 1975? And right wing (Fash) paramilitaries were apparently fighting ETA even in the 1980s?

What does it say that you're comparing the UK govt to a fascist one? Btw ETA also disarmed in 2011. That's partly thanks to EU diplomacy and negotiation.

But hey, in the 1970s we had billionaire James Goldsmith (founder of the Referendum Party - a predecessor to UKIP who outspent every party in campaigning in 1997) and David Stirling; founder of the SAS - Threatening to overthrow the UK govt if it all got too left wing.

He then turned his attention to infiltrating trade unions and ruining them.

Btw Priti Pratel was in the Referendum Party.
#15035158
I'll accept the claim that the EU prevents war if we admit it is really designed to prevent one particular kind of war: German invasion of its neighbours. It's not polite to talk about it these days, but the two world wars weren't caused by some generic "nationalism", they were caused by very specific German expansionist aims in Central and Eastern Europe. It's hardly a coincidence that the post-Cold War settlement in Eastern Europe looks a hell of a lot like Brest-Litovsk, or that the EU's foreign policy goals currently involve prising Ukraine away from Russian influence.

Atlantis wrote:When Ireland gained independence from its colonial masters, the British split up the island to carve out a part with a majority unionist population, who would have been a minority in a united Ireland. Most Irish never accepted that division. That legitimized the armed struggle. With both Ireland and the UK being in the EU, the border between Ireland and NI became invisible and people were able to cross from one country to the other like you cross from one side of the street to the other.

The border is actually invisible because of the Common Travel Area, which predates the EU by several decades. But don't let facts get in the way of a nice propaganda opportunity. ;)
Last edited by Heisenberg on 21 Sep 2019 12:05, edited 1 time in total.
#15035159
Rugoz wrote:I find the peace argument generally weak:
- Eurosceptics don't want to end economic and political cooperation in Europe, they just want to do it differently.
- In the past decade, the EU has rather led to strife, from the euro crisis to the opposition to a workable solution in NI.
- It's an argument that could come from the CCP: If you oppose us, you're disturbing the peace.


Completely false points.

- They want to trade with the RoW instead of Europe, and sod the consequences.

Take it from Pascal Lamy; ex WTO head; it ain't gonna work, trade deals are about CLOUT, as he says; they're not about one small country against huge ones.

- What part of the 'euro crisis' was specifically caused by the EU? Are you American?

And it's the UK's fault there's no solution; the only workable solution' is the backstop or something very similar, there are no other magical technological solutions. That's a lie. Btw they(uk gov) just wanted the backstop removed....That's alice through the looking glass stuff; if the next stage of negotiations stalled or failed, then a hard border would automatically kick in; damaging the ROI economy, ours, and the rest of the EU.

- It's true that those who fight the EU don't want peace.

They are far-right libertarian ideologues.

There used to be a lot of kommunisty and trade union old laboury types who supported Brexit, but they'd never support this power grab by the far right. Cos that's what it is.
#15035161
Heisenberg wrote:I'll accept the claim that the EU prevents war if we admit it is really designed to prevent one particular kind of war: German invasion of its neighbours. It's not polite to talk about it these days, but the two world wars weren't caused by some generic "nationalism", they were caused by very specific German expansionist aims in Central and Eastern Europe. It's hardly a coincidence that the post-Cold War settlement in Eastern Europe looks a hell of a lot like Brest-Litovsk, or that the EU's foreign policy goals currently involve prizing Ukraine away from Russian influence.


Well, as bad as Euromaiden, RS, Svoboda and the others are; and as bad as Tymoshenko et al were; you can't deny that Russia simply annexing Ukraine is equally bad.

Because that's what would have happened if everyone else stayed out of it.

I don't agree with either side on Ukraine, they're both very culpable for the catastrophic events that transpired in 2014.

Equally, the 'west' helped support the fascist KLA in the 90s. They get it wrong a lot, very wrong, but you're not appreciating the other side of the argument..I think, or maybe you do(?).

As you are presumably communist, what would you have the UK do? Or are you not going to speculate on reforming capitalism?
#15035162
Heisenberg wrote:It's not polite to talk about it these days, but the two world wars weren't caused by some generic "nationalism", they were caused by very specific German expansionist aims in Central and Eastern Europe.

No they weren't. They were caused by French and Russian expansionism and British and US perfidy. The German liberation of Alsace Lorraine in 1871, was righteous and moral. The 1871 border between Germany and France was, highly generous to France, allowing them to keep nearly all their ill gotten gains from centuries of aggressive war mongering expansionism. The post 1815 border between Prussia and Russia and the post 1847 border between Austria and Russia was even more generous to Russia.

The immediate cause of world War was Russian backed Serbian terrorism, which was itself underwritten by Russia's alliance with France. Russia de-facto declared war on Germany on July 29th. Germany's response to this aggression, was itself aggressive, high handed, bullying and was politically and diplomatically inept. But none of this changes the fact that France and Russia were the original aggressors. And that prior to the July crisis, Britain had colluded and conspired in French aggression. The German increasing radicalised nationalist response to other Great power aggression and the economic crushing and humiliation of Germany that started with the demands against Belgium and culminated in the death camps and Barbarrossa's occupation policies, may have been deeply regrettable, but they were also fully understandable.

It is bare faced naked racism to suggest that Germans have the slightest thing to be ashamed about their actions from 1914 to 1945. French, British, American and Russian nationalism would all have shown comparable radicalisation in comparable circumstances.
#15035163
Heisenberg wrote:I'll accept the claim that the EU prevents war if we admit it is really designed to prevent one particular kind of war: German invasion of its neighbours. It's not polite to talk about it these days, but the two world wars weren't caused by some generic "nationalism", they were caused by very specific German expansionist aims in Central and Eastern Europe.


The world wars are a result of European imperialism. The ill-fated German attempt at imperial expansion in the first half of the 20th century was the response to the threat of imperial powers, in particular French, British, Russian and Turkish. The small states of the HRE had been under attack and partial occupation by imperial powers for centuries.

It's no coincidence that one of the first things Hitler did was to destroy the federal structures Germany inherited from the HRE in order to build a centralized state on the model of imperial Britain and France. Neither is it a coincidence that today Erdogan tries to build a strong centralized presidential system in order to fulfill his imperial ambitions. Federal structures are not suitable for imperial expansion. That's why your attempt at portraying the EU as an expansionist empire is fundamentally flawed.

Just like right-wing populism spreads today from country to country, fascism spread in the 20th century and imperialism in previous centuries. You really have to be British to believe that only the British have the right to imperialism. In real life, other countries will respond in kind.

The current predicament your country finds itself in is because people like you, together with your soulmates Farage and Johnson, have been busy portraying the EU as the "4th Reich".

Ultimately, your hostile anti-EU propaganda does not damage the EU but your own country because it has misled your people into this extraordinary adventure of self-harm.
#15035164
Atlantis wrote:The world wars are a result of European imperialism. The ill-fated German attempt at imperial expansion in the first half of the 20th century was the response to the threat of imperial powers, in particular French, British, Russian and Turkish. The small states of the HRE had been under attack and partial occupation by imperial powers for centuries.

It's no coincidence that one of the first things Hitler did was to destroy the federal structures Germany inherited from the HRE in order to build a centralized state on the model of imperial Britain and France. Neither is it a coincidence that today Erdogan tries to build a strong centralized presidential system in order to fulfill his imperial ambitions. Federal structures are not suitable for imperial expansion. That's why your attempt at portraying the EU as an expansionist empire is fundamentally flawed.

Just like right-wing populism spreads today from country to country, fascism spread in the 20th century and imperialism in previous centuries. You really have to be British to believe that only the British have the right to imperialism. In real life, other countries will respond in kind.

The current predicament your country finds itself in is because people like you, together with your soulmates Farage and Johnson, have been busy portraying the EU as the "4th Reich".

Ultimately, your hostile anti-EU propaganda does not damage the EU but your own country because it has misled your people into this extraordinary adventure of self-harm.


What country do you live in?

Don't think HB's a far righter, seems like an anti imperialist communist from what I could glean, therefore I doubt HB loves British colonialism. :)

There are legitimate criticisms to be made of some of the ill-fated interventions in Africa, the ME, Ukraine and Yugoslavia; most of these were spearheaded by the yanks and us, but other EU countries joined us.

Therefore we are all partly responsible.

^ That's no defence of how awfully this country has acted, nor how brainwashed and self-sabotaging people are in this country btw. Nor is it a defence of historical British colonialism. It's true that WWI was just as much a product of British pigheadedness as it was anyone else's.

Plus, aftef WWI; us, France and the US crippled DE at the league of nations with too large debt repayments.

The UK/US, by destroying their economy and praising Hitler and Fascism during the early years; basically gave Hitler all the power he needed; and we thought we could use Fascism to beat communism.

It didn't work obviously...in WWII the Red Army pretty much helped save our bacon. Even though the molotov ribbentrop pact was a catastrophe, and Stalin was responsible for atrocities, we still owe him.
Last edited by Presvias on 21 Sep 2019 13:23, edited 1 time in total.
#15035187
@Presvias, I’m a died-in-wool European who celebrates our common heritage.

The arguments of the anti-EU left in the UK resemble those of the anti-EU right to the point of anti-immigration rhetoric and latent xenophobia. The nice thing about Brexit is that it forces them to come clean and show where they stand. There can only be one type of Brexit. That is an ultra-neoliberal Brexit with strong nationalistic undertones. Leftist Brexitters still haven’t explained how they can reconcile that with their ideology. To watch how Corbyn is refusing to come down from the fence is a spectacle to behold.

@Heisenberg compared me to Rees Mogg, which is obviously absurd since nobody here will doubt that I’m pro-EU. That just goes to show that he has no argument and just wants hurl insults. My comparison of him with Farage and Johnson, on the other hand, is justified since he keeps on harping about how the EU is allegedly a tool of German hegemony. He, like Johnson, is so British that he can’t understand that this is an insult to all Europeans.
#15035203
Heisenberg wrote:I'll accept the claim that the EU prevents war if we admit it is really designed to prevent one particular kind of war: German invasion of its neighbours. It's not polite to talk about it these days, but the two world wars weren't caused by some generic "nationalism", they were caused by very specific German expansionist aims in Central and Eastern Europe.

One particular neighbour especially: France. The EU is a result of Franco-German reconciliation and unprecedented cooperation in the first place, with which Central and Eastern Europe don't have much to do, although the latest EU-expansion towards Central and Eastern Europe was due to growing German economic and political influence in the region indeed.
#15035205
@Atlantis I compared you to Rees-Mogg in the sense that you think the only possible Brexit is a hard, no-deal one. It's a position you share with the ERG, but not with me. I've advocated a Norway-style deal for years, as my posting history will show.

As for "hurling insults", you spend your entire time in these threads calling me a hard-right fascist because I don't share your vision of the EU as being about peace and love.

You simply lack the self awareness to recognise that the reason you paint the EU in this fashion is because you live in the EU's main power centre, who the EU's institutions are primarily designed to benefit. It's genuinely hilarious to see you use the word "alleged" when I say Germany is the hegemonic power in the EU. Of course it is . Its size and industrial output alone mean that it is inevitable that Germany will dominate the continent, just as it's inevitable that China will dominate it's neighbours and the USA will dominate the Americas. It's not an "insult" to point out simple facts, except to insecure fanatics.

Watching you make these posts is really no different in principle to the governors of far-flung British or French colonies in the 19th century saying European imperialism was a "civilising mission".

And for about the twentieth time, I have no problem with European countries that wish to integrate further into the EU. I wish them well. I just don't think Britain should.
#15035209
Atlantis wrote:@Presvias, I’m a died-in-wool European who celebrates our common heritage.

The arguments of the anti-EU left in the UK resemble those of the anti-EU right to the point of anti-immigration rhetoric and latent xenophobia. The nice thing about Brexit is that it forces them to come clean and show where they stand. There can only be one type of Brexit. That is an ultra-neoliberal Brexit with strong nationalistic undertones. Leftist Brexitters still haven’t explained how they can reconcile that with their ideology. To watch how Corbyn is refusing to come down from the fence is a spectacle to behold.

@Heisenberg compared me to Rees Mogg, which is obviously absurd since nobody here will doubt that I’m pro-EU. That just goes to show that he has no argument and just wants hurl insults. My comparison of him with Farage and Johnson, on the other hand, is justified since he keeps on harping about how the EU is allegedly a tool of German hegemony. He, like Johnson, is so British that he can’t understand that this is an insult to all Europeans.


Ah I see your point of view a little better now. Are you not willing to say which country you're in? It doesn't make any difference to me, I was just curious.

Anyone is welcome to discuss any country IMHO.

Which government are you most closely aligned with in the EU right now? I guessed you might be a social democrat or something.
#15035257
Beren wrote:although the latest EU-expansion towards Central and Eastern Europe was due to growing German economic and political influence in the region indeed.


That is factually incorrect. It was Poland and other Eastern European (perhaps Central European to you) countries that pushed hardest for the EU's Eastern partnership or for Ukraine to become an EU member, which is still being vetoed by Germany and other Western members. Even as we speak, the Visegrad 4 are trying to get the Western Balkan countries into the EU, irrespective of whether they are ready or not, while most Western members favor a temporary halt to enlargements as previous enlargements still pose problems. Anyways, German industry does quite well, even outside the EU, as in China, which is now the most important market for some of the biggest German car makers.

@Heisenberg, I never once portrayed you as a "hard-right fascist". Quite on the contrary, I always regretted that we can't get on, but your visceral anti-EU rants just brush me the wrong way. I guess it is second nature to many in the UK and that you aren't even aware of it.

While Germany is the biggest economy in Europe, it in no way dictates the direction of the EU. Since the voting system in most EU institutions gives an advantage to smaller member far beyond their actual size, Germany is outvoted more often than not, as can be seen, for example, in the refugee crisis. Unlike the UK, Germany also submits to the rulings of European courts without complaining.

You are projecting imperial ambitions onto the EU which are inherently British.

You simply lack the self awareness to recognise that the reason you paint the EU in this fashion is because you live in the EU's main power centre, who the EU's institutions are primarily designed to benefit.


I live at the outer edges of the EU in one of the poorest regions of the continent. The previous owner of my property signed the sales contract with his fingerprint as he is illiterate because during his childhood he was too poor to get a pair of shoes for going to school. This 3rd world-level of poverty is still in the living memory and contrasts sharply with the relative prosperity of today. Thanks to the economic convergence in the EU, poor regions have seen a remarkable increase in prosperity. That is of course something the British vehemently oppose (like you oppose EU budget contributions and Freedom of Movement), because the brown people ought to stay in their place in your imperial worldview.

The centralized British model impoverishes the regions while enriching the greater London area. The EU's economic convergence helps poor regions to benefit from the prosperity achieved by the richer industrialized regions.

You are so ignorant of the EU that it is truly sickening. You just keep on repeating your ideological rants without any regard for reality. You can pose as a leftists all day long, at heart you are a closet imperialist who hates the EU because Britain can't use it at will for its geopolitical ambitions.

Presvias wrote:Which government are you most closely aligned with in the EU right now? I guessed you might be a social democrat or something.


I believe in the pragmatic application of the social free market economy to avoid the pitfalls of socialism, on the one hand, and neoliberal-style capitalism, on the other hand. Since most countries have now introduced some form of welfare, it can be considered the most successful system in existence. I also believe in pan-European democracy as it mitigates the extremes and because purely national democracy has not future without an international or regional framework that protects it from adverse external influences.
#15035279
Beren wrote:It was the case with Hungary and Germany was considered our greatest Western political ally and the greatest advocate for Eastern expansion when we joined, and the whole Eastern end of the EU has always been considered part of the German economic sphere.


I misunderstood. I thought you meant the EU's Eastern Partnership program and not the East Enlargements. Obviously, industry wants a bigger market, but unlike in common law countries, the political takes precedence over the commercial in continental Europe. Germany supported Eastern enlargements because that is what the German government promised as condition for German reunification. Kohl said that German reunification must not come at the expense of European unification, which committed all subsequent governments to support East enlargements. The UK government supported East enlargements because it wanted a bigger single market and because it wanted to consolidate Nato.

The latter proves that the argument according to which peace in Europe is due to Nato and not the EU is false. Nato is just a military alliance that doesn't bind people in a profound way like the EU. That is why the UK/US always pushed for EU enlargements including Turkish EU membership. Even though Turkey is a Nato member, it doesn't preclude war, for example between Turkey and Greece.

@Heisenberg, is that you having a go at Verhofstadt? :lol:



@Heisenberg, so you think that MEP Alyn Smith from Scotland is like Rees Mogg too because he believes, like me, that there is no good Brexit?

Last edited by Atlantis on 21 Sep 2019 20:47, edited 2 times in total.
#15035287
Atlantis wrote:Obviously, industry wants a bigger market, but unlike in common law countries, the political takes precedence over the commercial in continental Europe. Germany supported Eastern enlargements because that is what the German government promised as condition for German reunification.

The EU is an economic and commercial union first and a political union second. Germany supported Eastern enlargement because they do a whole lot of trade with East-Central Europe and invest a lot there, so they're economically interconnected, which is why we also should be supposed to join the euro area. They also hoped for political and diplomatic gains and support, so the Germans must be really disappointed by recent political developments in the region.
#15035295
Presvias wrote:If you think firing a rocket at Vauxhall Cross (MI6), destroying the Lloyds building or even just 7 year old kids throwing bricks at police... is the same as a couple of threats, mostly defused bombs which are just warnings, and the very sad and thankfully very rare occasional assassination, and beatings, then I really don't know what to say to you.

If it was the same, then we would be seeing more death and destruction, so it is clearly not. I haven't claimed it was either. The point is that the paramilitary groups still exists and are active. There are to this day from 15 to 40 incidents per year in NI which are classified as terrorist attacks and NI usually dominates the terror statistics in the UK in terms of the number of incidents. There are also, as I've shown, a lot of other bomb incidents, intimidation, assaults and shootings.

Presvias wrote:Those terror incidents have gone up since D Cameron said he was a "proud unionist" and defended an evil policy with the then-secretary for NI; Theresa Vilestliers. Then Theresa May said that she would try to stop prosecutions against ex squaddies who perpetrated horrific abuses in NI. The UK govt are a bunch of terrorist, and war crime supporting feckin cunts.

Considering our other exchanges, I'm not surprised by this ill-informed and ignorant diatribe.

Presvias wrote:Btw a poll said that the majority in NI would vote for reunification with the republic in the event of no deal. So maybe something good will come out of this joke saga.

I have it on good authority that votes, especially when it comes to leaving a union, can be ignored.

Presvias wrote:By the way, this is proof that the EU has helped things enormously. Many of the ex yugoslav countries are doing as well as you can expect. The EU has really helped them. That was a pretty self defeating line of inquiry you took up.

The relative prosperity of the Balkan countries is essentially as it was going back at least to the beginning of the 20th century when some of them were still part of the AH empire and persisted throughout the existence of Yugoslavia: Slovenia does best followed by Croatia. Anyway, as you well know, my point was that political unions are not necessarily a safeguard against violence and war as evidenced by this violent breakup. It's a testament to the selective amnesia that befalls people when they are ideologically committed that it never occurs to them that the last proper war in Europe happened in Yugoslavia. And while we are at it, we can also observe that the rest of continental Europe was exceptionally useless in preventing or stopping the ethnic cleansing and violence happening in its own "backyard".

Presvias wrote:You can use whatever terms for the 'campaign' you like. But it's telling that you're saying the campaign was similar to ETA's. You do know that Spain was Fascist in 1959 (when ETA started up) til 1975? And right wing (Fash) paramilitaries were apparently fighting ETA even in the 1980s? What does it say that you're comparing the UK govt to a fascist one?

It's you who made this stupid comparison. You have a strange habit of attributing your own statements and arguments to the person you are debating.

Presvias wrote:Btw ETA also disarmed in 2011. That's partly thanks to EU diplomacy and negotiation.

It wasn't until 2017 that ETA gave away the location of its weapons and officially declared it had fully disarmed, and then by 2018 it had dissolved. I'm happy to look at your evidence that EU diplomacy contributed to this, rather than it simply being due to the eroding support for terrorism and the ETA's frustration in the face of its inability to achieve its objective (brought about in no small part by Spain's refusal to engage).
#15035303
"Considering our other exchanges, I'm not surprised by this ill-informed and ignorant diatribe.
"

QED.

You have betrayed your absolute lack of knowledge about what's going on in this country, every claim made in the post is very quickly & easily verifiable.

Simply saying the EU is the big bad, when you're a kiwi with (?) an axe to grind, is kind of not good enough.

People like me and MANY NI Catholics, who I will always happily stand up for, view the UK govt as terroristic for their actions in NI.

But hey, I'm just making it up right and you know all about this country :roll:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.belfas ... 36897.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... d-48961053

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljaze ... 57461.html

Etc etc.

Don't get me started on the actual abuses perpetrated by soldiers, RUC and Loyalist paramilitaries (something you no doubt have studiously educated yourself about).

Face it, you don't know about this issue, or the other issues raised.


This took the fucking biscuit by the way

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... d-47471469


Victims' families have called for the Northern Ireland secretary to resign over comments she made about the Troubles.

Karen Bradley said that killings at the hands of the security forces were "not crimes".

^ Her backtracking means nothing.

She's absolutely vile and defends war criminals who killed innocents in NI, not to mention their collaboration with Loyalist terrorists who tortured innocent Catholics, burnt them out of their houses and perpetrated very many horrific abuses.

Only a completely ignorant prat would deny or play this down
#15035325
Presvias wrote:Simply saying the EU is the big bad, when you're a kiwi with (?) an axe to grind, is kind of not good enough.

I've actually never said that. You and some other EU-proponents seem to be incapable of dealing with disagreement and hence conjure up a caricature against which you then proceed to argue.

Presvias wrote:People like me and MANY NI Catholics, who I will always happily stand up for, view the UK govt as terroristic for their actions in NI.

That doesn't make it any less of an ignorant diatribe.

Presvias wrote:But hey, I'm just making it up right and you know all about this country :roll:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.belfas ... 36897.html
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... d-48961053
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljaze ... 57461.html
Etc etc.

I'm in full agreement with the Tories on this issue. Note that France, under the socialist Hollande no less, has put an end to comparable frivolous persecutions years ago, while in the UK the Tories have made promises and talked about it a lot while doing nothing at all. You can be sure that no self-respecting country with a capable and effective military that has to actually undertake operations would tolerate this. So I certainly hope Johnson will finally follow through with this promise, but I'll withhold my judgment until then.

Presvias wrote:Don't get me started on the actual abuses perpetrated by soldiers, RUC and Loyalist paramilitaries (something you no doubt have studiously educated yourself about). Face it, you don't know about this issue, or the other issues raised.

Yes, I have educated myself about this as well as the atrocities of the IRA which, as it happens, were the first to use human bombs whereby they would force a person, by threatening to kill his family, to drive a car bomb to a military target where the bomb would go off. When they became increasingly desperate in 1990 they would also not give the drivers the chance to escape before the bomb exploded. The IRA is of course also unmatched when it comes to the death toll, torture, murders and disappearances. And what have they achieved? Nothing at all.

Anyway, I challenge you to find me a military in the world which deals with a decade-long terror campaign in the same restrained manner as the British military in NI while taking as many casualties as they did. I'm quite confident that you won't find any. And of course many on the republican side prefer to ignore that the British Army and other security forces were the only thing that prevented outright civil war in Northern Ireland.

This took the fucking biscuit by the way

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... d-47471469

Victims' families have called for the Northern Ireland secretary to resign over comments she made about the Troubles. Karen Bradley said that killings at the hands of the security forces were "not crimes".

^ Her backtracking means nothing. She's absolutely vile and defends war criminals who killed innocents in NI, not to mention their collaboration with Loyalist terrorists who tortured innocent Catholics, burnt them out of their houses and perpetrated very many horrific abuses. Only a completely ignorant prat would deny or play this down

It wasn't wise of her to make that statement, but she's surely right in almost all cases.
#15035344
^ Unbelievable. All of it.

If you do know about the Troubles, then you have absolutely no excuse for defending Loyalist paramilitaries.

I'd get permanently banned if I said what I'm thinking, so best just completely dismiss your frankly evil posts/beliefs.

But just in case you're engaging in sophistry, and patching over your ego (which I hope is the case), I'll try one last time to show you exactly what you're mistakenly defending..

https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/events/bsunday/chron.htm

Successive Tory and Labour govts and Ulster University have agreed upon those events.

It's completely clear that the invading & occupying British started, continued and gladly carried out the actions mentioned in the article. The Irish were oppressed for hundreds of years prior to the formation of the Free State; and the predecessors to the IRA; the Fenians, were absolutely justified in their campaign against tyranny.

The early IRA of James Connolly and 'big jim' larkin were also pretty heroic,
; it was comprised of men & women who valiantly fought the occupiers' racist tyranny.

The only people who still defend the British involvement in Ireland, are far-right fascisti and the ignoranti.
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