[Beren]

I wonder if Hillary would have been hawkish enough to pull the US out of the JCPOA, which may have been Trump's worst (foreign) policy move so far. @Negotiator's declaration of still preferring Trump to Hillary makes that position appear smuggish or hipsterish even more than any support for Hillary ever could.

[late]

I wonder if Hillary would have been hawkish enough to pull the US out of the JCPOA, which may have been Trump's worst (foreign) policy move so far. @Negotiator's declaration of still preferring Trump to Hillary makes that position appear smuggish or hipsterish even more than any support for Hillary ever could.

She supported the deal.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2017/10/15/hillary-clinton-iran-deal-decertify-sot-gps.cnn

Hipsterish?? Not their style, I suspect. Kinda doubt politics is their style in any case.

[Drlee]

So ... you rather would have wanted Clinton who wanted to install a nofly zone over Syria, while the russian air force was active in the area ?

Nobody wanted Trump, but the damn alternative was Clinton.

Who made an election campaign to the far right of Trump,

Nonsense. She certainly did not.

ignored half of the swing states completely,

Yes. And Trump campaigned hard in California? That is how campaigns work.

had destroyed Lybia under Obama with exactly that nofly zone,

Way to defend one of the most dangerous regimes of the century.

had talked about murdering Assange with drones,

recently was in the press for not regarding security protocols with sensitive data,

Thoroughly investigated and exonerated. Compare this to asking a foreign power to hack US Government computers and get dirt on a political opponent.

calls herself a capitalist (as opposed to, I dunno, democrat) and is by the way also a mulitmillionaire, so she doesnt even have the advantage over Trump not to be one of the oligarchs.

She is worth a few million from book and speaking sales. Compared to billions? And she is a capitalist. So are almost all democrats. Did you somehow forget that the US is not just a capitalist country it is THE capitalist country?

So yeah, I still take Trump over that any day.

Until you learn a little about US politics I am sure you would.

[SpecialOlympian]

I don't see how the Donald is relevant here, Turkey's supposed to be a US ally, which they hardly are anymore, no need for any test to see that. The Americans make a big strategic mistake with dumping the Kurds, although they may keep supporting them behind the scenes. Not that Trump has a strategy for anything else than himself. The Kurds were great allies and abandoning them like that tells nothing good about American reliability in general.

I like how Donald has proven that you should never, ever, trust America under any circumstances. Do not ally with us, do not make deals with us, because we will fuck you.

And in exchange for this we get: nothing.

[Hindsite]

I don't see how the Donald is relevant here, Turkey's supposed to be a US ally, which they hardly are anymore, no need for any test to see that. The Americans make a big strategic mistake with dumping the Kurds, although they may keep supporting them behind the scenes. Not that Trump has a strategy for anything else than himself. The Kurds were great allies and abandoning them like that tells nothing good about American reliability in general.

Putin once called Trump a genius, so I would not underestimate him. Anyway, there are millions of Kurds in Iraq.

[Beren]

Putin once called Trump a genius, so I would not underestimate him.

I also would not underestimate Putin.

However, @Hindsite, Putin praising Trump is like a circus trainer praising his bear.

[Hindsite]

I also would not underestimate Putin.

However, @Hindsite, Putin praising Trump is like a circus trainer praising his bear.

That is funny. Ha ha.
However, Putin represents the Russian bear.

[Beren]

That is funny. Ha ha.
However, Putin represents the Russian bear.

Putin's rather a Siberian fox actually, Yeltsin was a bear like Trump.

And Russians are good at training bears, btw.

[Presvias]

Putin's rather a Siberian fox actually, Yeltsin was a bear like Trump.

And Russians are good at training bears, btw.

Kind of like Orban and many others like him.. Then again, you get others on the..other side of the 'spectrum' who blindly and lovingly go along with everything that the neolib western institutions say; institutionalization as it were, is a big problem.
That's not to mention the other context of that word... where those who propose austerity etc are concerned..

[JohnRawls]

...something about his "wisdom"

Lets look at this impartially.

Turkey is a NATO ally to great many countries and the kurds are an existential threat to Turkey whenever EU, US or anybody likes it or not. Turkey would have attacked the Kurds eventually. Now we can choose to defend the Kurds or not. Since Turkey is an ally then I do not see why we should protect the Kurds. Not to mention having Turkey as an ally > having Kurds as an ally. I understand that Erdogan is doing it to get some popularity back but if anybody else was in Erdogans shoes then they would do exactly the same.

Trump just abandoned one of the US allies. This will make things complicated in the future because it will be hard to trust the US for smaller/regional allies who might be abandoned in a split second. On the other hand the US is done with 1 conflict which was one of Trumps promises. Also Syria was not of Trumps creation. Not to mention the situation long deteriorated from favourable to US to very unfavourable. The alternative is to keep the status quo alive and fighting for 10 years more? What is the point in that. Russia is not using its resources because it just provides minor assistance and bombs things. They can sustain that indefinitely. Syria is not getting worse or better nor will Assad regime collapse since the Kurds are not interested in fighting Assad. They are interested in helping their brother Kurds in other places and holding their territory.

This paves the way for the end of the Syrian civil war. Once the Turks crush the Kurds eventually then the Kurds will have no choice but to run to Assad for help. On the other hand Turkey will have no need to sponsor its proxies in Syria anymore since the Kurds have been destroyed. Its a kind of win-win for Assad and Erdogan.

Erdogan as inept as he is can't stop being a loud mouth. Threatening Europe with immigrants could have been done by sending classified messages instead of shouting it. Not to mention that Europe was not interested in interfering here in any case after Russia gold involved. Any intervention by Europe would lead to a crazy Free For All which nobody really wants. Plus Turkey is an ally.

Realistically putting sanctions by the EU on to Turkey is not a good response. It will crush the Turkish economy and punish Turkey BUT it will also make Turkey a semi proxy of Russia and China. Kind of on the same level as Iran. An independent actor who is heavily dependant on the support from the big boys. I don't know. Its too complicated. Erdogan is a weird person, he balances on the knifes edge of sorts but seems to come out relatively okay although the situation just gets worse and worse for him. The only reasonable unreasonable responses to Turkish actions could be:

1) Blockade Turkey with EU fleets on the side of Greece and put severe sanctions.
2) Do nothing.

Small sanctions is not a good idea because Erdogan is a loose cannon of sorts. He won't fucking understand the message. Limited military action is not possible because Turkey is part of Nato and we are also. US is pretty much in a similar position.

I guess doing nothing is the best choice. The same way Trump did in a sense. He quit.

[anasawad]

I also wonder what had the Kurds done that effectively no country is acting in sympathy to them. I have heard about their perils for decades, by no means shorter than the Palestine people.

The conflict goes back to the late period of the Ottoman empire.
Before the Turks and Kurds fought each other, they fought beside each other.
And most of the genocides the Ottoman empire had done in their fall period were done by Kurdish forces under the empire's banners.

Once the empire was gone, and Turkish nationalism rose up, they collided with each other.
Add the fact that the French and the British had mandates that cut through Kurdish territories, they ended up being divided into many states and ruled over by people whom they had committed massacres against under the Ottoman banner.

In short, the reason why the Turks and the Kurds hate each other is because of Turkish nationalism rising to claim the entire region as Turkish and establishing its republic over Turkish and Kurdish lands alike.

The reason why Kurds and Iranians hate each other is that the Kurds were key part of the Ottoman forces, whom the Iranian empire fought many wars against and as such the Kurds in Iranian lands were and are seen as infiltrators.

The reason why Arabs and other groups hate the Kurds is that the Kurds helped in genocides against them and the conflict simply never died out.


To quote my grandfather in how he referred to the Kurds, they're "Ottoman dogs". Also adding that he constantly pointed out how the Kurds will gladly sell their neighbors to the highest bidder in reference to them selling out to the highest paying empire, gladly killing and destroying on behalf of other empires and power for a pay. In this case, the US, though probably Russia or China soon.

[Hindsite]

Putin's rather a Siberian fox actually, Yeltsin was a bear like Trump.

And Russians are good at training bears, btw.

Then why do those in the know refer to President Trump as the Elephant in the room or not in the room?

Donald Trump is the Elephant in The Room at Conservative Summit in Iowa

Republican debate: Trump was the elephant not in the room

Fox Wastes No Time Getting To 'Elephant Not In The Room' During Debate - Newsy

The Elephant In The Room: Trump's Relationship with Silicon Valley

[Hindsite]

Small sanctions is not a good idea because Erdogan is a loose cannon of sorts. He won't fucking understand the message. Limited military action is not possible because Turkey is part of Nato and we are also. US is pretty much in a similar position.

I guess doing nothing is the best choice. The same way Trump did in a sense. He quit.

I am sure I heard Trump refer to the Turkish offensive as a bad idea because of the Christian Kurds. He does not give a shit about the Muslim Kurds. He also pointed out his opposition to endless, senseless wars. He acknowledged that the Kurds had fought alongside American troops against the Islamic State, but they had done so out of self-interest, for their land, and noted that they didn’t help us in the Second World War. They didn’t help us in Normandy.

When President Trump threatened Erdogan that he would wipe out the Turkish economy if they went too far, I believe he was referring to genocide of those Christian Kurds only.

[JohnRawls]

I am sure I heard Trump refer to the Turkish offensive as a bad idea because of the Christian Kurds. He does not give a shit about the Muslim Kurds. He also pointed out his opposition to endless, senseless wars. He acknowledged that the Kurds had fought alongside American troops against the Islamic State, but they had done so out of self-interest, for their land, and noted that they didn’t help us in the Second World War. They didn’t help us in Normandy.

When President Trump threatened Erdogan that he would wipe out the Turkish economy if they went too far, I believe he was referring to genocide of those Christian Kurds only.

I don't know what the Kurds have to do with WW2 but okay. Turkey also didn't fight in WW2. I mean it all boils down to the fact that Turkey > Kurds and that what exactly are we all fighting for in Syria now? This applies to literally everyone besides Assad and Turkey. (Russia, USA, EU, SA, etc) Right now its a warzone for the sake of being a warzone. Even SA who might consider it "We can't let this stop because they will come for us" pretty much gave up because they have Yemen to worry about now.

[Unperson-K]

He acknowledged that the Kurds had fought alongside American troops against the Islamic State, but they had done so out of self-interest, for their land, and noted that they didn’t help us in the Second World War. They didn’t help us in Normandy.

On the same basis, Trump should ditch America's alliance with Israel because they weren't there to help at Gettysburg.

I don't know who is the bigger fool...the president who makes such an absurd statement or the people who back him up.

[JohnRawls]

On the same basis, Trump should ditch America's alliance with Israel because they weren't there to help at Gettysburg.

I don't know who is the bigger fool...the president who makes such an absurd statement or the people who back him up.

Trump probably wanted to say that they didn't help the US in the cold war while the Kurds were on the commies side and he just slipped up. It makes far more sense honestly.

[Hindsite]

I don't know what the Kurds have to do with WW2 but okay. Turkey also didn't fight in WW2.

That is true, however, near the end of the war Turkey did declared war against the Axis Powers. I don't think his point was that he was an expert in war history, but that he was going by the fact that Turkey is a NATO member and the Kurds are not.

I mean it all boils down to the fact that Turkey > Kurds and that what exactly are we all fighting for in Syria now? This applies to literally everyone besides Assad and Turkey. (Russia, USA, EU, SA, etc) Right now its a warzone for the sake of being a warzone. Even SA who might consider it "We can't let this stop because they will come for us" pretty much gave up because they have Yemen to worry about now.

Yes, I understand. I think that is also basically how President Trump sees the situation. As he said, the Turks and the Kurds have been fighting each other for a long time and it is not our fight, so let's get our troops out of harms way. He just wants Erdogan to go easy on the Christians, because he believes he is a Christian and has promised them protection.

[Atlantis]

He just wants Erdogan to go easy on the Christians, because he believes he is a Christian and has promised them protection.

The Caliph of Ankara together with his jihadist proxy forces massacres the last remaining Christians in the birth places of Christianity in the ME with the blessing of president Trump. That's not going to go down well in the bible belt.



Abandoning Kurds could cost Trump support of evangelical Christians

“It is very possible that the American withdrawal from the region will lead to the extinction of Christianity from the region,” Ashty Bahro, former director of the Evangelical Alliance of Kurdistan, told the Christianity Today news outlet.

“An invasion by Turkey into NE Syria would pose a grave threat to the region’s Kurds and Christians, endangering the prospects of true religious freedom in the Middle East,” tweeted the evangelical leader Tony Perkins, a Trump adviser.

The Christian Broadcasting Network (CBN) founder, Pat Robertson, described even more grave stakes in a broadcast on Monday.

“I believe … the president of the United States is in danger of losing the mandate of heaven if he permits this to happen,” Robertson said.
...
“Today I ask that you join me in praying for the lives affected by the White House decision to pull US troops out of northern Syria,” tweeted one evangelical pastor, Franklin Graham. “Both Democrat & Republican leaders are deeply concerned bc this would be, in essence, abandoning our closest allies there – the Kurdish people.”

“Hey @SpeakerPelosi,” tweeted the evangelical radio host Erick Erickson, “maybe do a vote to initiate impeachment STAT, have the committee get out articles by tonight and over to the Senate, and perhaps we’ll still have time to save some of the Kurds.”

“Pray for our Kurdish allies who have been shamelessly abandoned by the Trump Administration,” tweeted the Republican senator Lindsey Graham. “This move ensures the reemergence of ISIS.”

Turkey’s invasion of Syria strikes a blow against Christians

Syrian Christians to US: ‘Don’t Abandon Us Now’

[noemon]

Lets look at this impartially.

Turkey is a NATO ally to great many countries and the kurds are an existential threat to Turkey whenever EU, US or anybody likes it or not.

First of all, impartially speaking, Kurds in general and Syrian Kurds most particular are not an existential threat to Turkey but the other way around. Turkey is an existential threat to them, the one invading them, killing them and in due time ethnic-cleanse them.

Turkey would have attacked the Kurds eventually. Now we can choose to defend the Kurds or not. Since Turkey is an ally then I do not see why we should protect the Kurds. Not to mention having Turkey as an ally > having Kurds as an ally. I understand that Erdogan is doing it to get some popularity back but if anybody else was in Erdogans shoes then they would do exactly the same.

Turkey has not been an ally for about the past decade and has made it official by allying herself with Russia and buying Russian arms well knowing that it goes against the NATO Charter. Turkey is not an ally and does not wish to be ally conscientiously. I guess by "anybody" you mean anyone of the rogue dictators in some rogue state because noone in Europe would have done such a thing.

Trump just abandoned one of the US allies. This will make things complicated in the future because it will be hard to trust the US for smaller/regional allies who might be abandoned in a split second.

Trump has destroyed America's reputation and reliability and has empowered Turkey, Iran, Israel, Russia and China to waive international rules, laws and act on their own whims with impunity. He is a liability to global security.

On the other hand the US is done with 1 conflict which was one of Trumps promises. Also Syria was not of Trumps creation. Not to mention the situation long deteriorated from favourable to US to very unfavourable.

This is a bucketload of nonsense. Noone is done with the conflict in Syria, and the situation in Syria was stable and favourable to the US as the US and its allies had secured their areas of control. It is this current policy of enabling Turkey to invade that has deteriorated the situation for both the US and Syria.

The alternative is to keep the status quo alive and fighting for 10 years more? What is the point in that. Russia is not using its resources because it just provides minor assistance and bombs things. They can sustain that indefinitely.

The few hundred US troops in Kurdish-held Syria are far more cheap and sustainable than the Russian presence in Syria. What are you talking about?

Syria is not getting worse or better nor will Assad regime collapse since the Kurds are not interested in fighting Assad. They are interested in helping their brother Kurds in other places and holding their territory.
This paves the way for the end of the Syrian civil war. Once the Turks crush the Kurds eventually then the Kurds will have no choice but to run to Assad for help. On the other hand Turkey will have no need to sponsor its proxies in Syria anymore since the Kurds have been destroyed. Its a kind of win-win for Assad and Erdogan.

Turkey invading Syria is not a win for Assad, and I do not see why should anyone in the west care what is a win to Erdogan. The destruction of the Kurds is not a win for anyone especially in Europe and the west as they are our most reliable allies in the region.

Erdogan as inept as he is can't stop being a loud mouth. Threatening Europe with immigrants could have been done by sending classified messages instead of shouting it. Not to mention that Europe was not interested in interfering here in any case after Russia gold involved. Any intervention by Europe would lead to a crazy Free For All which nobody really wants. Plus Turkey is an ally.

Erdogan's posturing is only relevant to show the total lack of backbone by the EU and the US.

Realistically putting sanctions by the EU on to Turkey is not a good response. It will crush the Turkish economy and punish Turkey BUT it will also make Turkey a semi proxy of Russia and China. Kind of on the same level as Iran. An independent actor who is heavily dependant on the support from the big boys. I don't know. Its too complicated. Erdogan is a weird person, he balances on the knifes edge of sorts but seems to come out relatively okay although the situation just gets worse and worse for him. The only reasonable unreasonable responses to Turkish actions could be:

1) Blockade Turkey with EU fleets on the side of Greece and put severe sanctions.
2) Do nothing.

Small sanctions is not a good idea because Erdogan is a loose cannon of sorts. He won't fucking understand the message. Limited military action is not possible because Turkey is part of Nato and we are also. US is pretty much in a similar position.

I guess doing nothing is the best choice. The same way Trump did in a sense. He quit.

Putting sanctions on Turkey is the only realistic and correct option. Turkey has already gone to Russia and China and she is already attacking western interests in Syria and Cyprus. Pretending to keep Turkey as a "friend" while she is screaming out to the world in the most obvious way possible that she is your enemy is just more weakness on display that further emboldens all these aforementioned actors. Turkey has made her choice, it is high-time the rest of us make our own choices as well.

[Atlantis]

Good read:

Turkey has multiphase game plan for Syria operation Read more

The major Turkish offensive and ethnic cleansing are likely to come after Nov. 13th summit between Trump and Erdogan. Russia and Iran will let the Turks invade to get the Americans out of Syria, but Turkey is likely to be squeezed out by Russia and regional powers in the end.

@JohnRawls, Turkey's problem is Erdogan's imperial overreach. That cannot end well for a mid-sized country with a fragile economy that depends on foreign military technology. Erdogan is trying to play a power game in a league far above his level. He is trying to realize his neo-Ottoman dreams by exploiting the chaos in the wake of the Arab Spring and by trying to play one superpower against the other. Yanukovich in Ukraine made the experience that that can't end well.