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By Finfinder
The Democrats are doomed, the top two Democrat candidates signature legislation " Medicare for all" simply stated has no math that can be done to pay for it.

Their slogan will be "you cannot keep your doctor nor can you afford them anymore. ...because you will be dead broke.
By Sivad
jimjam wrote:I'll vote for Ed the talking horse before i'd vote for Donald :lol: .

I'll vote for anyone or anything that I think will help hasten the collapse of the current system. In 2016 I thought that was Clinton so I didn't just vote for her, I actively campaigned for her. Boy was I wrong, the Trump circus has totally destroyed half the country's faith in the Washington establishment.

Right now I'm not sure if the Trump circus is played out and it would be better to have a dem like Warren get in and totally betray the progressives by instantly selling out to the corporate money and starting a few wars? Warren would also almost certainly implement some highly regressive carbon taxes and energy austerity policies and that would be super helpful for my politics by provoking mass outrage. I have to think about it but I'm voting for whoever is going to do the most damage to the system.
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By Drlee
The Democrats are doomed, the top two Democrat candidates signature legislation " Medicare for all" simply stated has no math that can be done to pay for it.

Their slogan will be "you cannot keep your doctor nor can you afford them anymore. ...because you will be dead broke.

So you have made this groundless assertion that:

...no math that can be done to pay for it.

Yet we have the example of every other developed nation in the world that provides even better care for all of its citizens for far less money. Here is my suggestion for you @Finfinder Finfinder. Why don't we ask them how they do it?

Maybe they don't allow drug companies to charge 10 times as much for insulin in the US as these same companies do in Canada. Or maybe they realize that with Medicare you do not have to go to your family doctor and pay for that to get a referral to the specialist you already know you need. Or maybe they pay for preventative care for everyone rather than wait until the patient is devastatingly and expensively ill. Or maybe they don't spend over 20% of the cost of health care on third party administrative costs. Or maybe, since everyone is covered, people do not have to go to very expensive emergency rooms for minor illnesses.

If you want to argue that medicare for all is not the way to go I am with you. It is simply the art of the doable. I would join with you in calling for universal single payer health care. That is better than medicare.

Outcomes in the US are pretty bad compared to other countries and downright awful for the uninsured and under-insured.

Here is a quick note about "keeping my doctor". It is a manufactured load of bullshit in about 90% of cases. Here is why:

Under out current system the average family practice doc must have about 1500 patients just to get by. Many in groups have far more. This is far from an optimum number.

And you think, because you see him once or twice a year that he "knows" you? He is looking at the computer before he enters the room just to see who the hell you are. His knowledge about your physical conditions, unless you are being treated for chronic illnesses, is only what you tell him and he can read on the computer.

His ability to diagnose illnesses frequently requires that he refer you to a specialist who you may see only once or twice. That specialist is not "your doctor" unless you require ongoing and extensive treatment.


Your doc:

You present to your family doc with a cough that has gone on for a long time. He listens to your lungs which really tells him little and refers you to doctor two:


He reads your PA and Lateral Chest and sees a radiopacity. He does not know if it is cancer for sure but it may be so he recommends another test.

Your doc:

He may see you to tell you that some additional looks are required and send you back to the radiologist:


He looks at your CAT scan and determines that you probably have cancer and reports to your doctor.

Your doctor

Breaks the news to you that you probably have cancer and refers you to a surgeon. (If you are lucky.)


He meets with you and tells you what he proposes to do to remove the tumor. You agree and he schedules surgery.

The hospital doc's. One or two hospitalists. (One to three residents, several interns.)

These manage your intake and recovery.

The surgeon

He does the surgery.

The anesthesiologist

He also does your surgery making sure you don't feel it and since it is lung surgery being particularly careful.

The pathologist

He looks at your tumor and decides what it is.

The Surgeon

He tells you (thank God) that he thinks he "got it all" but that you should see and oncologist. (If you haven't already seen one who worked with the surgeon to decide treatment.

The oncologist

He meets with you and recommends chemotherapy.

The chemo nurse

This is the person who administers all of the chemo treatment. You will get to know her if you are treated at a small enough practice.

The oncologist

You have finished treatment so he "follows" your case. This amounts to sending you back to the radiologist periodically for followup scans.

The radiologist

He sends the results to your oncologist

Lather rinse repeat.

The point is that US health care does not actually work like most people think it does.

But at the end of the day, under our current system, medicare recipients have far better choice of their practitioners than do those with private or supplemental insurance. Why? Because currently 81% of US family practice docs take medicare.

You see Finfinder? It is not at all like most people think.

Switch off.
By Finfinder
@Drlee 3 trillion a year Drlee show us the math. What do we take in income taxes every year 4 trillion ?

At the end of the day only a small portion of Americans are on Medicare, I have a little understanding as I hold a Florida 215 life health and variable annuity license.

The cost is pervasive enough that the government came up with Medicare Advantage both Medicare and Medicare Advantage are when you turn 65 and you have paid taxes into it your entire life. Liz Warren and Bernie Sanders want Medicare for all, Warren refuses to answer how we are going to pay for it and Bernie admits taxes are going to go way up. I think his 10 year estimate was about $100 trillion. .

I agree with you I'd would love to have free healthcare but its not that easy btw lets throw in 30 million undocumented people who may or may not have been contributing taxes towards healthcare.

As far as Doctors, Medicare doesn't pay the entire bill the doctor charges, it pays only a fraction (80%) and they do not cover perscription drugs. Many doctors do not even accept Medicare Advantage. That's why you have to buy gap insurance to cover what Medicare does not. A medical event is the single biggest financial threat to retired people.
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By Drlee
@Drlee 30 trillion a year Drlee show us the math. What do we take in income taxes every year 4 trillion ?

Nonsensical number. 30 trillion is over $90,000.00 per American per year. This is 9 times what we are paying now.

If we use the same number as the UK the US bill for 100% paid heath care for every citizen would be less than two trillion a year. It is a big number but less than 1/2 what we are paying now. Even if we justify an additional 50% above what the UK pays because we are spread out and want convenient services we are still saving nearly $990 billion over what we are paying now.

So you and I can agree that the US would save money with a single payer system and have to conclude that the nearly trillion dollar savings would be stimulative to the economy.

I am always puzzled by the outrageous numbers the opponents of universal health care banter about. But then we live in the era of the big lie.

Current amount the US spends on health care is 3.5 trillion. If we spent the same as the UK does per person then we could cut this almost in half and cover everyone.

So lets set it at 2.5 trillion because we want Cadillac care and we are spread out. You tell me what to do with the 1 trillion savings? How about universal dental care or paying down the deficit? I know that there are no current republicans who would favor paying down the deficit but some democrats would.
By Finfinder
Its 3 trillion per year drlee let me know when you can make the math work. Is that who youll vote for Warren or Sanders? Warren won't answer the question of how she can pay for it. Bernie is about 10 trillion per year. All pipe dreams.
Last edited by Finfinder on 19 Oct 2019 20:54, edited 1 time in total.
By Pants-of-dog
The USA already pays about 3 trillion right now. If @Finfinder is correct about the number, then there would be no cost increase with switching to a single payer system.
By Sivad
Pants-of-dog wrote:The USA already pays about 3 trillion right now. If @Finfinder is correct about the number, then there would be no cost increase with switching to a single payer system.

Right now the US pays 3.6 trillion. If @Finfinder is correct about the number, then there would be a decrease of 600 billion with switching to a single payer system.
By Finfinder
Sivad wrote:Right now the US pays 3.6 trillion. If @Finfinder is correct about the number, then there would be a decrease of 600 billion with switching to a single payer system.

what is 3.6 trillion ?
By Sivad
We asked a handful of economists and think tanks with a range of perspectives to estimate total American health care expenditures in 2019 under such a plan. The chart at the top of this page shows the estimates, both in composition and in total cost.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... mates.html
By Sivad
Finfinder wrote:what is 3.6 trillion ?

Total annual healthcare spending in the US.
By Finfinder
Can't read your link but I think you and @Pants-of-dog are talking about Medicare and Medicaid I already explained how Medicare works. Medicare is for people 65 or older and they have paid taxes into the system their entire life. (not only medicare taxes but social security taxes) Medicaid is for poor people it's welfare. We are talking about Medicare for All. Please read all the posts in context. How do you pay for the rest of the population? When Warrens program cost 3 trillion and Sanders cost 10 trillion and we only take 4 trillion in revenue?

Lets assume you guys are correct (which you are not) how could you possibly keep your doctor when the system is entirely flooded with people going to the free office visits. And a wide variety of things like the government taking control of 1/5 of our economy. Where do then 150 million who work in the health insurance industry go when the government ends private insurance companies? Good luck with the election.
Last edited by Finfinder on 19 Oct 2019 21:25, edited 1 time in total.
By Pants-of-dog
We are not discussing the price just for Medicaid and Medicare.

We are discussing the total price:
https://www.axios.com/health-care-spend ... ec264.html

    Americans spent $3.65 trillion on health care in 2018, according to new preliminary estimates from independent federal actuaries. That total is about the same size as Spain and Canada's entire economies — combined.

    Why it matters: U.S. health spending last year was 4.4% higher than in 2017, a rate that is still growing faster than the broader economy — which means more money is being taken out of people's paychecks to pay for a system that continues to worry and frustrate patients.

    By the numbers: That $3.65 trillion health care tab last year translates to $11,121 per person.

    Spending on hospitals, doctors and other clinic services was $2.16 billion, holding steady at 59% of total health care spending.
    The spending category that experienced the largest year-over-year increase was the general cost of administering health insurance, which rose 7.7% in 2018.
    Spending on prescription drugs purchased in retail pharmacies went up 3.3% in 2018, higher than the 0.4% rate in 2017.
    A majority of the bigger spending totals were due to higher overall prices, while the "use and intensity" of health care services played a smaller role.
    Three main conduits pay for health care services: Medicare, Medicaid and private health insurance.

    Private health insurance continues to fare the worst on controlling costs. Per-person spending among the privately insured rose 4.5% in 2018 despite the fact enrollment in private plans stayed flat.
    Per-person spending in Medicaid and Medicare increased 1.1% and 3.1%, respectively, last year. Those government programs pay lower provider rates than private insurers.
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By annatar1914
jimjam wrote:Agree 100% but …………. what you leave out is the question of degree. The degree of rancid behavior served up by the oligarchs ebbs and flows. When, to use an extreme example, millions of one minority or another are placed into concentration camps and gassed I posit that that is unacceptable …… to say the least.

When to fight, and how to fight, and who to fight. These are all important questions. I think you know enough of my posting history that I am an Anti-Fascist and Socialist, but also I have to admit I wrestle myself with issues of obedience and discernment of legitimate authority in troubled times.

President Donald J. Trump is indeed President of the United States, and it looks like he will easily win re-election in 2020. Then his family will start running for office, and they will be Presidents too. It looks like something we will just have to deal with in our own ways, with our conscience that God has implanted within us as our guide.

I have my own issues with President Trump, they are not exactly the same issues you have with him by far in some matters. Frankly, I want him to utterly destroy the US Political Establishment, once and for all, and his denial of the Presidency to Hillary Clinton in 2016 alone makes him the greatest President of the United States since Abraham Lincoln in my opinion...
By Pants-of-dog
Finfinder wrote:yea we are talking about the cost

And if your number is correct, then the USA could have medical coverage for everyone and also save billions of dollars each year.
By Sivad
Finfinder wrote: the government taking control of 1/5 of our economy.

I got a big problem with that too. Publicly funded, member controlled, not for profit health insurance cooperatives would be a lot better than state run healthcare. But nobody's talking about that, as usual the mass majority is stuck in a retarded dialectic of crony capitalism vs state collectivism.
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