Vast protest in Hong Kong against extradition law - Page 48 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15043818
Patrickov wrote:China should see Hong Kong as somewhere to be changed as little as possible, and themselves the custodian. Do NOT try to remodel Hong Kong in their own vision.
Instead, find somewhere else to carry out their experiments. As for "not allowing Hong Kong to be a base of anti-China or anti-Communism", well, the Chinese Communists, and to a lesser extent, the Chinese people themselves, are the real ones who ignited such sentiment. If they fail to acknowledge this, anywhere can be a base of anti-China or anti-Communism. Don't they see what Malaysia and Kazakhstan have become?

Sigh...this is one big problem I have with the yellow camp - we are not looking at the world in the same lens. Where do I even begin?
Firstly, no - I don't think China tried to change Hong Kong's system, it is unrealistic, not in their interest and they know it. If anything, the intervened too little too late, trusting their idiot minions in Hong Kong to know best. They allowed their enemies to divert public opinion to a point of no return: (https://www.hk01.com/周報/385681/與胡錫進對話-我們與-環球時報-的-平行時空 : rare instance this guy is not spewing bullshit.) What they wanted: bring public opinion under control, safeguard national security, and work with us for better economic integration - I frankly do not see any ill will as these are all very normal requirements for any sovereign country - but people in Hong Kong do not see them as a normal country, and frankly do not understand what that concept means - 陳啟宗 also mentioned that in his video. We are easily manipulated to believe that anything coming from China must be evil.
The bureaucrats in Hong Kong government, in their incompetence, saw these not as strategic initiatives, but orders to be followed word to word. They just bulldozed through the list like the loyal little puppies they are, screwed up the whole show, then blame the opposition when it failed. That was what 陳啟宗 meant (Damn I am becoming a fan), how they are 吏 not 官 - they execute orders but lack any strategic depth.
I believe it is quite a slippery rope to suggest that China is aiming for full control - it is a horribly wrong conclusion that feeds into horribly wrong observations, creating the echo chamber of Sinophobia.
I am not familiar with Malaysia and Kazakhstan, but you might notice South Korea, Philippines and many African countries became much closer to China lately - that alone doesn't mean much. 天下熙熙,皆為利往, diplomatic alignments has everything to do with national interests but very little to do with what you mentioned here.
Patrickov wrote:I say this not in a Hong-Kong-centric way. Why does Hong Kong have to be so important anyways? I actually like the idea that China, or at least a significant portion of it, be as good to live as Hong Kong is (or used to be). Many Hong Kong Secessionists hold their idea just because they lost hope of that. Therefore, I strongly disagree their call (and, instead, believe the Secession Question is a false proposition), but I cannot really blame them.

(Un)fortunately, you are sitting on her border and as her international hub. That's how we got rich but that also gives Hong Kong strategic importance.
It is very irresponsible to think Chinese national interests has nothing to do with us. As long as we are one country, there is no question we have that burden - question is how much, and that boundary has to be defined. The pan-dems were right about it when they questioned the government on things like how to define "patriotic", how to execute the law and how to prevent abuse during 23條, it fell on deaf ears with the establishment, because they are such good puppies. The extradition law was again, understandably rejected outright by HKers, but I believe now more than ever, there needs to be another discussion on the topic.
Patrickov wrote:Making China "livable" is the ultimate solution of the Hong Kong problem. As a Chinese scholar Gu Yanwu said, "Everybody is responsible for the fate of the world". The Chinese only have themselves to blame if their place is such a shithole, and should not lie to others and force they way (as they have been doing). If they really cannot stand it anymore, then I won't hesitate to say "burn this bitch down", but afterwards, please be serious to build something that works -- together.

Are you suggesting that as long as China made everything flowers and butterflies, they will no longer face national threats? That is very unrealistic. Quality of life and national security are two separate issues.
Not to mention China is not a shithole - it's a developing country that has done very well for itself. She has her challenges - it's no Sweden, but all in all it is reasonably livable. I frankly don't know why you insist she needs to be burned down and subjugated by foreigners. A lot of Chinese I know would be very offended by that.

As for your political views - as a fellow Hong Konger I understand it well, these are all pretty mainstream thinking - but I think many of these mainstream views are deeply problematic - still, I'm glad we are able to debate respectfully.
#15044647
https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/10/25/china-detains-reporter-covered-hong-kong-protests-sources/

#me too, HK.

For how much longer can the idealistic Western bourgeois continue to ignore their fellow progressives in HK? Already HK protestors have won over the gamers, liberal conservatives and the alternative influence network. They have the attention of the neocon imperialists too, which is not really a good thing. But I can’t see how it can be avoided. Soon enough the progressive aspirational class opinion formers will come around and support their sisters in HK.

This is the problem for the authoritarian government in Beijing. The people of HK are a part of the culture in the West. Beijing can’t force them into a place on Beijing’s prefered hierarchy without alienating the West.
#15045616
fuser wrote:KASHMIR : Western Population, sorry can't hear you.

YEMEN : Western Population, sorry can't hear you.

Ecuador : Western Population, sorry can't hear you.

hongkong : Western Population, holy shit this is some real oppression that we are going to end by making winnie the poo jokes.

I still remember the days when western media, governments and people cared so much about Libya now that the situation there is much worse, the only sound that is coming from these so caring people is silence.

Just like manufactured consent, this is nothing but manufactured rage, if China would have been a western bootlicking improvised shithole, no one would have given a fuck about Hong Kong.


:up: :up: :up:

Add France, Gaza, Chile, Haiti etc. to the list. :hmm:

Manufactured rage is right.
#15045648
benpenguin wrote:Well, Nazis, then Communists, then Terrorists, then the Chinese...the empire needs her enemies.


Enemies exist as long as there are irreconcilible conflicts of interest. It is rather childish to believe the US doing this just for the sake of it.
#15045774
Patrickov wrote:Enemies exist as long as there are irreconcilible conflicts of interest. It is rather childish to believe the US doing this just for the sake of it.

It's also the easiest way to rally people - one of many reasons to be sure.
#15046269
benpenguin wrote:No doubt that would explain the rising tide of Chinese hyper-nationalism.
Absolutely. Same old trick. You will find me "on the side of China" but by no means I am unaware that both sides are assholes.
#15046400
benpenguin wrote:Absolutely. Same old trick. You will find me "on the side of China" but by no means I am unaware that both sides are assholes.


Everyone is an asshole to some extent, while those who aren't are either incompetent or induce fear to some who they cannot defeat.

Therefore, I believe it is impractical to make "non-assholes in power" the sole objective. Instead we should aim for getting a system in which even assholes can make positive contributions. The American system, with its countless flaws, seems to do better than the Chinese, not least by making the likes of Donald Trump doing good things once a while.

If the System cannot do that and there are not enough non-assholes, then it is always better to pick someone we can control. The protesters and pan-democrats are, and the pro-Chinese aren't. Period.
#15046401
If some Lebensunwertes Leben believe rejecting a nation (which doesn't respect its people and thus deserves no respect or even soverignty) is wrong, read this instead.

Five hurt in knife attack, brawl, at Tai Koo mall

A Putonghua-speaking man reportedly slashed several people with a knife before biting a district councillor’s ear off outside the Cityplaza mall in Tai Koo, prompting an angry crowd to beat him in retaliation. Two men were in a critical condition, two people were seriously hurt, while one was reportedly in a stable condition as of Sunday night.

An RTHK journalist arrived on the scene to see a man slumped to the ground, bleeding profusely from what appeared to be a long knife wound to his back and shoulders.

Two other women were also sitting nearby, appearing to be dazed and in shock.

A grey-shirted man speaking mandarin was being confronted by an angry crowd.

Among them was Democratic Party member and district councillor Andrew Chiu – who represents Tai Koo West.

The councillor grabbed the man in an apparent attempt to stop him from leaving the scene, when the man suddenly grabbed Chiu by the head and bit down on his ear.

Chiu’s glasses flew off and people gathered around them starting hitting the man to try to force him to let go, without success. By the time the man was pulled away, part of Chiu's ear ended up on the ground as he pressed his hand against his bleeding wound, yelling "Where has my ear gone?"

Other people, incensed by the attack, grabbed the grey-shirted man and pushed him to the ground, where they punched and kicked him.

After the man was subdued, the beating did not stop.

When he eventually got back to his feet, with blood streaming from his head, he tried to push past the crowd, resulting in yet another beating.

Riot police finally showed up after he was beaten for several minutes, pushing the media back and giving paramedics access to those injured.

One woman, surnamed Leung, told reporters afterwards that her brother-in-law had gotten into an argument with a mandarin-speaking man over ‘political differences’, after having dinner inside the mall.

She said the man then attacked her brother-in-law, her sister, and herself.

"He hit my sister and I tried to stop him. He pulled my hair and punched me. I think he’s a mainlander because he spoke in mandarin. He said Hong Kong belongs to China,” she said.

Democratic Party legislator James To, who visited Chiu in hospital, said medics were trying to re-attach his ear, but it's not yet clear whether this will succeed. He also said Chiu has appealed to Tai Koo residents not to protest on his behalf, citing concerns that they may face violence from the police.

Sunday's attack came after police had stormed into the mall early in the evening to confront people who had sprayed graffiti at the entrances of two restaurants. Hundreds of people had also been peacefully forming a human chain inside, in protest of police brutality.

RTHK
#15046703
skinster wrote:
I recall seeing this banner being sold by a vender , at this event https://ohio.org/festivals-events/event/46th-annual-mesopotamia-ox-roast-antiques-and-flea-market/ . If I recall correctly the very same vender was also selling Confederate flags , among other items that might appeal to rightists . Remarkable that this icon of the Trump personality cult has reached clear across the Pacific Ocean , and found its way to Hong Kong .
#15046847
[code][/code]
Deutschmania wrote:I recall seeing this banner being sold by a vender , at this event https://ohio.org/festivals-events/event/46th-annual-mesopotamia-ox-roast-antiques-and-flea-market/ . If I recall correctly the very same vender was also selling Confederate flags , among other items that might appeal to rightists . Remarkable that this icon of the Trump personality cult has reached clear across the Pacific Ocean , and found its way to Hong Kong .


Please note that Carl Zha is an apologistic Lebensunwertes Leben who advocates Chinese Communist Party, and tends to exaggerate any information that supports his argument.

The reality is that, anti-Chinese "decorations" may be everywhere, but a very tiny portion of them even mentions the West. What are shown there are little more than one-off showings.

On a side note, had the American President be somebody else we will see a different figure instead. It is just that "Trump is here now". There is absolutely no cult of personality revolving around Trump.
#15047782
Quick update:

The first confirmed fatality of the protest (admittedly small compared with other similar protests, but we are still dealing with human lives) happened a few days ago, which fueled both sides over the days, and it seems that more casualties are on the way.

According to some sources, the police are firing tear gas or even live ammunition into universities.

Detailed updates will be available once sources are more coherent. Expect them to come slowly as I am still at work (shame!)
#15047791
Okay, the death first.

Lily Kuo wrote:Student who Fell from Parking Lot During Demonstrations Dies

A Hong Kong student who fell from a building during clashes between police and protesters earlier this week has died, marking the first death from injuries sustained during anti-government demonstrations that have overtaken the city.

Hong Kong’s hospital authority confirmed that Chow Tsz-lok, 22, died early on Friday morning after suffering brain damage following a fall during protests on Sunday. Chow, a computer science student at the Hong Kong University of Science and Technology (HKUST), was found injured early on Monday morning in a car park in Tseung Kwan O in Kowloon, where he was believed to have fallen one storey.

Chow’s death is believed to be the first fatality linked to police action during a protest. Protesters had been trying to disrupt a police officer’s wedding, which was being held in the area. It was unclear why Cho was in the car park or why he fell.

Police had fired multiple rounds of teargas nearby, but security footage showed that police had not fired heavy rounds of the gas in the car park before Chow fell.

The death is likely to escalate protests and fuel public anger at the government as demonstrators continue to demand an investigation into the behaviour of the police, who have been accused of using excessive force on protesters.

On Friday, hundreds of protesters marched through Hong Kong’s business district, holding flowers and black banners and blocking traffic. Demonstrators blamed the police for Chow’s death, shouting: “Hongkongers, seek revenge!”

Protesters also called for city-wide demonstrations on Friday evening to mark Chow’s death, while HKUST planned to hold a vigil. As students demanded answers from the police, the university called for students to remain calm to “avoid further clashes and tragedy”.

A government spokesperson said the administration “expressed great sorrow and regret” over the death of Chow and had extended sympathies to his family. The spokesperson added that the police were “conducting a comprehensive investigation”.

Police have said that the location where Chow fell was about 130 yards from where the police were conducting a dispersal of protesters, using teargas, rubber bullets, and beanbag rounds as well as one sponge grenade. The police have denied allegations that they blocked emergency responders from reaching Chow.

In a “citizen’s press conference” held by protesters following the news of Chow’s death, demonstrators said: “In this tragic moment, we plead to all to bear in heart and mind who the real culprits behind Tsz-lok’s death were. His fall was not an unfortunate accident. It was an intentional manslaughter executed by tyranny and the police force.”

Hong Kong is facing its worst political crisis in decades as hundreds of thousands of residents, many of them students and young people have taken to the streets since June to press for greater democracy, among other demands.

The protests, ignited by a now-scrapped extradition bill for people to be sent to mainland China for trial, have evolved into wider calls for democracy, posing the biggest challenge for Chinese president, Xi Jinping, since he took charge in 2012.

Confrontations between police and protesters have grown increasingly violent with injuries on both sides, but before now no one has been killed in clashes. On 1 October, police shot a protester in the chest with a live round and another in the leg on 4 October, but both recovered. In September, a journalist was blinded in one eye after being hit by a rubber bullet fired by police.



On the Reddit-like forum LIHKG, demonstrators called for people to wear all black and cover their faces in masks on Saturday to honour Chow. Demonstrators also called for CCTV footage to be released showing Chow’s fall, while others blamed the police and demanded revenge.

“The black police must pay. Blood for blood,” one user wrote on LIHKG.

The Guardian on 8 Nov 2019



That very night, I had a hard trip back home and had almost bumped into a silent crowd (I think in the strength of thousand, though it is just one district) mourning the dead. I should have known things going south soon but it didn't really happen until Sunday night and Monday morning.
Last edited by Patrickov on 11 Nov 2019 10:01, edited 1 time in total.
#15047818
Let's pick something from a paper other than the Guardian.

Hong Kong police shoot protester as pro-democracy unrest spirals into rare working-hours violence

Aprotester was in a critical condition on Monday after being shot by Hong Kong police, as the Chinese-ruled territory spiralled into rare working-hours violence in its 24th straight week of pro-democracy unrest.

Police fired tear gas in the Central business district where some protesters, crouching behind umbrellas, blocked streets as office workers on their lunch break crowded the pavements and hurled anti-government abuse.

Some passers-by took cover inside the Landmark shopping mall, one of the oldest and most expensive in Central, as volley after volley of tear gas rained down.

Protests have happened almost daily in Hong Kong, sometimes with little or no notice, disrupting business and piling pressure on the government. But it is rare for tear gas to be fired during working hours in Central, lined with bank headquarters and top-brand shops. Some offices closed early and workers headed home.

In Sai Wan Ho, on the eastern side of Hong Kong island, police fired live rounds at close range at protesters and said one was wounded.

Video footage showed a man lying in a pool of blood with his eyes wide open. Police also threw a woman into the debris-littered street and pepper-sprayed her in the face as plastic crates were thrown at officers.

Anson Yip, a 36-year-old Sai Wan Ho resident, said protesters were throwing rubbish to create a road block when police ran to the scene.

"They didn't fight and the police ran and directly shot. There was three sounds, like 'pam, pam, pam'," Yip said.

Police later fired tear gas in the same area. Protesters and residents formed a barricade of polystyrene boxes around the bloodstained street after police forensic teams left the scene.

"When I arrived the road was blocked and people were yelling at the police, calling them murderers," said a 24-year-old man, one of several office workers gathered there, who gave only his surname, Wing.

As well as the man who was wounded in the incident, the Hospital Authority said another man had been admitted with severe burns.

Police said in a statement that radical protesters had set up barricades across the city, and warned demonstrators to "stop their illegal acts immediately".

They did not immediately comment on the shooting. The police first began using live rounds as warning shots in August and have shot an 18-year-old protester and a 14-year-old, both of whom survived.

Protesters are angry about what they see as police brutality and meddling by Beijing in the freedoms guaranteed to the former British colony by the "one country, two systems" formula.

Some have called for independence, a red line for Communist Party leaders in Beijing.

China denies interfering and has blamed Western countries for stirring up trouble.

The latest violence comes after a student died in hospital last week following a fall as protesters were being dispersed by police.

Violence flared at several university campuses as news of the latest shooting spread, with witnesses reporting tense stand-offs between students, protesters and police. All classes were cancelled.

Hong Kong's stock market was down 2.7 per cent in early afternoon trade, outpacing losses in other parts of the region.

The Daily Telegraph


We had early release because of this, and a friend of mine had become a direct victim of tear gas -- she's merely a bystander having her lunch. Fortunately she did not suffer major injuries.
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