Trump hands over Syria to Turkey then threatens to "totally destroy & obliterate" her economy if... - Page 18 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15043807
Rugoz wrote:If Assad was so popular with the Syrian people, he wouldn't need to be a dictator.


To ba fair, there were dictators who became one on the basis of popular support. Napoleon III, Adolf Hitler, Mao Zedong and Lee Kwan-yew were good examples. We only find dictatorships bad because this path always went awry afterwards.
Last edited by Patrickov on 21 Oct 2019 05:42, edited 1 time in total.
#15043810
The need was to save his own ass.


Like I said, crushing and merciless destruction of these Jihadi animals works far better.



I want to live in your fairy tale world where everybody's either an "Islamofascist" or an Assad-lover.


Did you hear me say anything about loving Dr. Assad? Is he a woman that I should love or hate him? No, with that part of the world, fear and respect work just fine long enough.



If Assad was so popular with the Syrian people, he wouldn't need to be a dictator.


They may not like Assad, but living under Islamist rule could well not be their cup of tea. Or to be less rosy about their motivations for not overthrowing Assad, see my answer above, because maybe they do want Islamist rule...Which should be avoided.
#15043826
@annatar1914, you don't seem to have very unbiased view of the Kurds. Whatever it is that makes you take such a hostile attitude, I don't understand it.

1. The US Government covertly armed the Islamists fighting in Syria to begin with, under Obama/Clinton.

2. How do you help treasonous people determined to invite in a foreign country's troops in defiance of international law, from not getting burned by their own stupidity?


Exactly, the anti-Assad Islamists invited the Americans, the Turks and the Saudis, not the Kurds. The Kurds are now fighting the US-trained Islamists.

The cooperation between Kurds and the US started in Iraq because the Iraqi army was incapable of fighting ISIS. The Kurds were the only fighting force capable of taking on ISIS. The same applies to Syria.

There never was much fighting between Assad's troops and the Kurds. The SAA was busy fighting the rebellion elsewhere and just left the Kurds to their own devices. Therefore, I expect that Syrian Kurds will come to terms with the Assad regime without much problem.

I have opposed the US intervention in Syria like I have opposed every US intervention since Vietnam, but I can't blame the Kurds (who were fighting for survival) for having accepted Western aid. Neither Assad nor Putin offered them the help they needed for survival.

Anyways, whatever grudge you bear against the Kurds, it in no way justifies the Turkish invasion and ethnic cleansing which are a blatant violation of international law. Nor does it justify the use of the US-trained thugs and Islamists against the Kurds.
#15043830
The German foreign minister has said that the Turkish invasion in Syria violates international law:

German FM says Turkish ‘invasion’ of northern Syria violates international law

91% of Germans favor an arms embargo and 65% favor economic sanctions against Turkey.

Potentially, Erdogan may be a bigger problem than Saddam. He has left no doubt about his neo-Ottoman ambitions by interfering in the MENA from Libya, to Egypt, Syria and Iraq and by trying to get a foothold on the Balkans and in the Stans.

Turkey has been bolstering its submarine fleet and Erdogan now questions why Turkey can't have nuclear weapons. Erdogan has cultivated close relations with nuclear power Pakistan. I wouldn't put it past him if he were planning a submarine fleet equipped with nuclear missiles to make Turkey invulnerable.

Erdogan says it's unacceptable that Turkey can't have nuclear weapons

Lets forget about Iran. The real problem is Turkey. With the US retreating from the ME, Europe needs a strategic alliance with Russia to counter rogue states in its periphery.
#15043850
Beren wrote:How was Saddam a problem to Europe? Had he ever blackmailed or threatened Europe? He was a problem to Saudi Arabia, Iran and Israel mostly.


I didn't say he was a threat to Europe. At a time, he was a threat to Iran, Kuwait and the Kurds; however, by the time he was toppled, the geopolitical threat emanating from Saddam had been contained. The invasion just destabilized the region.
#15043851
Atlantis wrote:I didn't say he was a threat to Europe.

But you have a European/Western perspective, don't you? Saddam didn't mean a threat to either Europe or the West, he was the Middle East's own problem, whereas Erdogan causes problems to both the EU and NATO. He's openly flirting with Russia and Iran while being in a customs union with the EU and a NATO member. Do you need enemies if you have allies like that?
#15043859
Rugoz wrote:The need was to save his own ass.

Assad is on the side of good against Sunni Islamic evil. His personal motivations might be of a philosophical interest but should be utterly irrelevant to our policy. As George W Bush stood on the good side against hundreds of years of Sunni supremacist terror tyranny and near a hundred years of Sunni Arab supremacist terror tyranny in Iraq. Again the personal motivations of himself or his Jewish supremacist advisers were utterly irrelevant to the righteousness of the cause.

Rugoz wrote:I want to live in your fairy tale world where everybody's either an "Islamofascist" or an Assad-lover. If Assad was so popular with the Syrian people, he wouldn't need to be a dictator.

There is no Syrian people. They are not national people, a linguistic people or a religious people. Blaming Assad for bombing his own people would be absurd as blaming the British government for incinerating their own people, when they fire bombed Hamburg and Dresden.
#15043948
Grass-root democracy, gender equality, inclusion of ethnic minorities, a city rebuilt from the rubble left by the ISIS onslaught ... surely we can't have that, we must get the Sultan to have his Islamist thugs put an end to it.

If the ME is ever to be resurrected, it'll be because women rise up against the patriarchal parasites repressing all forms of intelligent life. In the assembly of Iraqi Kurdistan, women have a share of 30%. That is more than in most Western democracies.

#15043968
jimjam wrote:Of Donald's now famous masterpiece of foreign relations ( “Let’s work out a good deal!” it said. “You don’t want to be responsible for slaughtering thousands of people, and I don’t want to be responsible for destroying the Turkish economy – and I will … Don’t be a tough guy. Don’t be a fool! I will call you later.”) this take: Brad Simpson, an associate professor at the University of Connecticut, tweeted: “I am a historian of US foreign policy. I have read many, many letters from US presidents to foreign leaders, and I have never read a letter from the US president so unhinged, so threatening, so bizarre, so completely lacking in basic etiquette. Trump is deeply, deeply unwell.”




I wonder if Erdogan’s cleaner had the presence of mind to save the original crumpled up letter from the waste bin. Think how much it will be worth when put up for auction in 10 years time.



Atlantis wrote:Grass-root democracy, gender equality, inclusion of ethnic minorities, a city rebuilt from the rubble left by the ISIS onslaught ... surely we can't have that, we must get the Sultan to have his Islamist thugs put an end to it.

If the ME is ever to be resurrected, it'll be because women rise up against the patriarchal parasites repressing all forms of intelligent life. In the assembly of Iraqi Kurdistan, women have a share of 30%. That is more than in most Western democracies.




So now all the Democratic Socialists in Europe can support the Kurds with their demonstrations without hypocritically supporting the US army at the same time. Surely all those European uni kids will be happy to have some consistency restored to their mythological world view.
#15044002
Atlantis wrote:Grass-root democracy, gender equality, inclusion of ethnic minorities, a city rebuilt from the rubble left by the ISIS onslaught ... surely we can't have that, we must get the Sultan to have his Islamist thugs put an end to it.

If the ME is ever to be resurrected, it'll be because women rise up against the patriarchal parasites repressing all forms of intelligent life. In the assembly of Iraqi Kurdistan, women have a share of 30%. That is more than in most Western democracies.



Oh, so it's not like you're actually for the Kurds as Kurds, or even peace in Syria and the Middle East, but an conceptual empty vessel with which to fill your Liberal Western Ideology into, pawns in a game. It explains your reactions on this thread nicely; your dream is being threatened by a good dose of reality, good and hard.

Excellent.
#15044004
foxdemon wrote:So now all the Democratic Socialists in Europe can support the Kurds with their demonstrations without hypocritically supporting the US army at the same time. Surely all those European uni kids will be happy to have some consistency restored to their mythological world view.


Oh look what we have got here, a Mr. know-it-all arm chair strategist. Quite honestly, I trust people who have documented the region for decades more than a Mr. know-it-all arm chair strategist.

Just so you remember, this is not a video game. Here people get killed, including innocent women and children, here people get annihilated by deliberate use of chemical weapons against civilians, here we have ethnic cleansing and suffering on a epic scale. That is different from your pain when you run out of popcorn. What has gone wrong with your generation?
#15044010
Atlantis wrote:Oh look what we have got here, a Mr. know-it-all arm chair strategist. Quite honestly, I trust people who have documented the region for decades more than a Mr. know-it-all arm chair strategist.

Just so you remember, this is not a video game. Here people get killed, including innocent women and children, here people get annihilated by deliberate use of chemical weapons against civilians, here we have ethnic cleansing and suffering on a epic scale. That is different from your pain when you run out of popcorn. What has gone wrong with your generation?

I believe foxdemon was just trying to point out that it has been American young lives that have been put at risk for many years trying to be the policemen far away from our home. It is about time that European young people do more than just demonstrating and complaining for a change. Why can't they give our young people a break in Syria, if they are so concerned about the fate of the Kurds? The European governments even refuse to take back the ISIS captives that came from Europe to join ISIS.
#15044015
Hindsite wrote:I believe foxdemon was just trying to point out that it has been American young lives that have been put at risk for many years trying to be the policemen far away from our home. It is about time that European young people do more than just demonstrating and complaining for a change. Why can't they give our young people a break in Syria, if they are so concerned about the fate of the Kurds? The European governments even refuse to take back the ISIS captives that came from Europe to join ISIS.


Well, sort off. America can’t continue to be the world’s policeman because it is sending America broke, distorting the political system (think Killary and her neocons), and the US military is over stretched and will at some point suffer a crushing defeat if the US doesn’t consolidate.


But there is another issue. That relates to why a nation should fight.


Atlantis wrote:Oh look what we have got here, a Mr. know-it-all arm chair strategist. Quite honestly, I trust people who have documented the region for decades more than a Mr. know-it-all arm chair strategist.

Just so you remember, this is not a video game. Here people get killed, including innocent women and children, here people get annihilated by deliberate use of chemical weapons against civilians, here we have ethnic cleansing and suffering on a epic scale. That is different from your pain when you run out of popcorn. What has gone wrong with your generation?



What is going on here is western popularist moralism granting legitimacy to an intervention. Moralism is never a good reason to go to war. A government finds itself driven by popular sentiments and thus forced to make poor strategic choices. Even worse is when there is a romantic as the leader.

Hitler, for example, was a romantic. He made a lot of poor decisions.

If we look at the last 25 years of Western military action, most of it has been a mistake. The interventions in Yugoslavia and East Timor were of a moral nature. The establishment used the moral legitimacy of terrorism to invade Iraq, Afghanistan and to attack Libya. So those were also fundamentally justified by a moral argument. How well have these worked out in terms of the goals of the nations involved in those interventions? Has stability been achieved?

French intervention in Africa has been justified by realism. How well has French interests been served by these interventions?

I suggest the realism based French approach has worked out better for the nations involved. The West is too hooked on emotion is its decision making. This is why Russia and China run rings around the West in contemporary strategy.

So I don’t think it is a good idea for social democrats to stir up popular emotion in support of the Kurds. Rather, the focus should be on long term goals: in Europe’s case, ensuring they can dominate the neighbourhood warlords without relying on America. So that means being strong enough and showing the resolve to shape events on your own frontiers.
#15044032
foxdemon wrote:What is going on here is western popularist moralism granting legitimacy to an intervention. Moralism is never a good reason to go to war. A government finds itself driven by popular sentiments and thus forced to make poor strategic choices. Even worse is when there is a romantic as the leader.

Hitler, for example, was a romantic. He made a lot of poor decisions.

If we look at the last 25 years of Western military action, most of it has been a mistake. The interventions in Yugoslavia and East Timor were of a moral nature. The establishment used the moral legitimacy of terrorism to invade Iraq, Afghanistan and to attack Libya. So those were also fundamentally justified by a moral argument. How well have these worked out in terms of the goals of the nations involved in those interventions? Has stability been achieved?

French intervention in Africa has been justified by realism. How well has French interests been served by these interventions?

I suggest the realism based French approach has worked out better for the nations involved. The West is too hooked on emotion is its decision making. This is why Russia and China run rings around the West in contemporary strategy.

So I don’t think it is a good idea for social democrats to stir up popular emotion in support of the Kurds. Rather, the focus should be on long term goals: in Europe’s case, ensuring they can dominate the neighbourhood warlords without relying on America. So that means being strong enough and showing the resolve to shape events on your own frontiers.


I don't even know where to start untangling the mess in your thinking.

Neocon policies had nothing to do with "romanticism". They had nothing to do with "popularist moralism" or with "social democracy". And then you throw in "Hitler" for good measure. All of this gets tangled in your mind like Polish nationalists fabricate a straw man by putting "driving a bicycle," "eating vegetarian", "civil rights for gays", etc., all in one basket.

The neocons used "human rights" as pretext to justify imperial expansion (remember, "take 7 counties in 5 years"). That's a classic. In antiquity, they used god and religion as pretext for foreign conquests. It sounds a lot better to say that I have to kill you because you don't worship my god than to say I kill you to steal your property and fuck your wife.

The neocons, by pretending to defend human rights, have actually damaged human rights and democracy, both at home and abroad. That's why Trump won to destroy US democracy and fuck with human rights.

That doesn't mean that those who have always defended human rights and opposed neocon policies are wrong. On the contrary, it means they have always been right.

What you say about French invasions is totally muddled too. I think you just don't understand European politics. You are from down-under aren't you?

The French together with the British (both former imperial powers) bombed Libya by using human rights as a pretext to get control over the oil fields. When that shit show went wrong too, the Brits just buggered off while the French at least had the moral rectitude to face the consequences and help Mali defend itself against the terrorist groups that resulted from the bombing of Libya. The Germans, even though they had stayed out of Libya, joined the French in Africa as part of European solidarity, even though they certainly didn't want to send soldiers to Africa.

It's hard to understand how you concocted your story from these facts.
#15044041
Hindsite wrote:I believe foxdemon was just trying to point out that it has been American young lives that have been put at risk for many years trying to be the policemen far away from our home. It is about time that European young people do more than just demonstrating and complaining for a change. Why can't they give our young people a break in Syria, if they are so concerned about the fate of the Kurds? The European governments even refuse to take back the ISIS captives that came from Europe to join ISIS.


The Trump fan boys are just as naive as foxdemon, except that they put on ideological blinkers to avoid seeing the obvious. The US runs a protection racket that does not protect anybody. It is utterly absurd to believe that the US will even station a single soldier abroad if it is not to defend US interests, and nothing but US interests.

Europeans didn't want you to invade Iraq. In fact, France and Germany took the unprecedented action of openly opposing the US at a time the US president said "you are either with us or against us." ISIS is a late result of the US invasion. The Kurds having to fight ISIS is also due to the US invasion. Most terror in the ME and Europe is due to US foreign policy.

Policemen shoot unarmed civilians in the US on a daily basis. In Europe, we don't need that sort of rogue policemen. Wherever the Yanks put their feet, there is war. You live by war. nobody wants you. Europe has to bear the consequences of your wars. When you start a war, the very least you have to do is to clean up after you and not let allies be butchered. Europe cannot mend all the damage the US has caused.

And don't say that Trump is different. He follows an imperial interventionist policy like every president before, except that it is even more brutal. He's itching to fuck with Iran even though the entire world is against you. He doesn't care because Europe will again have to bear the cost of America's wars.

With allies like that we don't need enemies.

At least Putin knows how to solve a conflict, the Yanks only know how to start it and leave everybody in the lurch.
#15044193
@Atlantis Atlantis

Well, you referred a DW documentary depicting smiling young Kurdish girls holding Kalasnikovs, and I already addressed the issue before.

But, for you and others, who prefer "depictions", not veritable facts, to form opinions, let me indulge you with slightly different depiction.

Behold, the General Mazloum, de facto ruler of Syrian territories controlled by PKK/SDF/YPG.

Image

Except the fact that, he is neither a general, nor his name is Mazloum.

He has used many code names besides General Mazloum, such as Mazlum Kobani, Sahin Cilo, Ferhad Abdi Şahin. "Ferhad Abdi Sahin" is the code name give to him directly by Abdullah Ocalan.

His real name is Mustafa Abdi Bin Halil, born in Afrin in 1967.

He joined to PKK in 1980s, always remained close to Abdullah Ocalan, so much so that he was nicknamed as "stepson Sahin"

Image

In most parts of 1990s, he was the right hand man of Ocalan located in Syria.

Following the Ocalan's forced departure from Syria and subsequent arrest by Turkish Authorities, "General Mazloum" moved to Qandil Mountains, PKK HQ in northern Iraq.

There he was appointed as the commander of PKK "special forces".

PKK's special forces' line of duties are planning and performing bombing attacks as well as training of suicide bombers.

During his tenure as commander of PKK special forces till 2012, he ordered the following bombing attacks against civilians:

- July 2005 - Cesme, Izmir - Bomb exploded near a tavern, 20 wounded (including 2 tourists)
- July 2005 - Kusadasi, Aydin - Bomb implanted in a minibus, 5 killed (1 Irish, 1 British tourists included), 14 wounded (6 touirst included)
- August 2006 - Antalya - Bomb explosion near a shopping center, 3 dead, 89 wounded (14 tourists included)
- May 2007 - Ankara - Suicide bombing in a downtown shopping mall, 6 killed, 91 wounded
- July 2008 - Istanbul - Twin bombings in a shopping street in Gungoren, 17 killed, 154 wounded
- October 2010 - Istanbul - Suicide bombing in Taksim square - 32 wounded
- September 2011 - Ankara - Bomb implanted in a car parked on a busy street - 5 dead, 34 wounded
- August 2012 - Gaziantep - Bomb implanted in a truck parked in downtown - 9 dead, 66 wounded.

Because of these crimes, there are multiple arrest warrants for him issued by Turkish courts. He has been one of the fixtures of Turkish Ministry of Interior's "red list" reserved for highest profile criminals being sought.

In 2012, he was assigned to go back to Syria with large contingent of armed PKK militia. His mission was to lead SDF and subdue all other political factions by force, which he did.

And, in due course of time, the terrorist who was born as Mustafa Abdi bin Halil has become General Mazloum, de facto leader of Syrain Kurds who can make phone calls to western leaders, included Trump.

Image

Now, could you please square your romantic depiction of secular, progressive, democrat and sort of feminist nature of PKK/SDF/YPG/PYD with my depiction based on veritable facts?
#15044240
@Vanasalus, tell me how do you protect your people in the ME? When your village is bombed by Ergodan or when your people is gassed by Saddam? Is it that you offer flowers and a peace sign in response? If that is the case, you have a very romantic notion of the world, and not me.

Both sides have committed terrible crimes. Nobody is doubting that. I can even understand that Assad had to resort to tough measures to suppress dissension that could not but throw the country into a civil war which invariably had to be exploited by outside powers to hold the country in the grip of a terrible proxy war.

The same excuse is not valid for Turkey. Turkey has failed to come to terms with its Kurdish minority for decades by granted it the degree of autonomy they require. Erdogan has cynically refueled the conflict with the Kurds to gain power and turn the country into the presidential system he needs to pursue his imperialistic ambitions.

After almost a century of secularism, Turkey is now in the process of backtracking on democracy. You probably don't notice it because there is no more free press in Turkey. Critical journalists are either in exile (external or internal) or in prison. Since Erdogan's ascension to power, Turkey has fallen to the very bottom of the press freedom index, ranking at 157th of 180 countries, well below most developing countries.

Regarding the Kurds, they undoubtedly committed their share of crimes. They could hardly have survived in such a violent environment otherwise. That doesn't mean that everything they did is wrong. The degree of gender equality and grass-root democracy they have achieved in parts is nothing but miraculous in a region where bearded fanatics have their women run around all covered in black.
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