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User avatar
By blackjack21
#15048172
late wrote:1) Trump is a bully, and bullies are cowards.

It's immaterial to Ukrainegate.

late wrote:2) There were no Clinton assasinations. Old propaganda.

The number of people with ties to the Clintons who died in an untimely manner is statistically significant. That doesn't mean that the Clintons killed people individually--that's unlikely. You could just chalk it up to it being very bad luck to hang out with the Clintons. I have a friend in Democratic politics who steers clear of them, but his girlfriend has been on some of these Clinton Foundation junkets. I think my friend is wise to steer clear of them. Statistically speaking--just ask an actuary--it's bad luck to be close to the Clintons.

Image

late wrote:3) It's anonymous because he doesn't want to get in trouble with the whistleblower law.

Unresponsive. I noted that the whistleblower now has a whistleblower. Whistleblowers aren't guaranteed anonymity, but I can see why in a world with ties to the Clintons that such people might be very nervous. As noted, it's bad luck to be associated with the Clintons.

late wrote:4) First, the law says not to disclose a whistleblowers identity.

It says the IG cannot do so.

late wrote:5) Odd thing is, we have had multiple witnesses since then, who had direct involvement, making the whistleblower irrelevant.

The transcript makes the whistleblower irrelevant. Vindman is the only witness that was on the call, and he hasn't named any crimes committed either. He indicated he was upset that some irrelevant remarks weren't included.

late wrote:Unless what you are doing is attacking the intelligence services to render them impotent.

If the CIA was doing its job instead of trying to shape foreign policy, it might actually be good at something.

late wrote:6) Deep State is projection...

Again, you still aren't dealing with the facts. A whistleblower is blowing the whistle on another whistleblower--again, not the Monica Lewinsky variety.
User avatar
By Tainari88
#15048176
@blackjack21 :

Trump talks a lot of bluster, but he's a softie at heart. There won't be any Clinton-style assassinations unless Ciarmella turns on the Clintons. However, I saw something this morning that was quite interesting:


Softie at heart? He is an unpredictable fool Blackjack. And the deep state is not happy he is not predictable. Frankly that is probably going to be his fatal mistake. Not being consistent.
By late
#15048186
blackjack21 wrote:
1) It's immaterial to Ukrainegate.


2) You could just chalk it up to it being very bad luck to hang out with the Clintons.


3) Unresponsive.


4) It says the IG cannot do so.


5) The transcript makes the whistleblower irrelevant.

6) If the CIA was doing its job instead of trying to shape foreign policy, it might actually be good at something.

7)Again, you still aren't dealing with the facts. A whistleblower is blowing the whistle on another whistleblower.



1) What I said was accurate, what I was responding to was the sort of sickening lie no responsible adult should use.

2) Which is not the lie the lying liars have been lying about for years and years and...

3) It's the sort of thing that Snopes will debunk in a week.

4) It's still a vile character assassination.

5) The other witnesses have corroborated the whistleblower. He's not needed. Which raises the question is why there is a howling Republican lynch mob. Oh wait, they want to send a message to everyone in the government what happens when you cross the mob boss.

6) The CIA was doing it's job. Along with the State Dept, the NSC and pretty much everybody else.

7) What's the difference between legitmate and character assassination? Facts, which you do not have.

I love this. The president admitted it on tv (something he does a lot), Mulvaney said "get over it", and a ton of witnesses are confirming it.

You don't have a leg to stand on. Or a torso, or a neck or a head, or....

Manana, people will see. Just like they did in Watergate.
By Hindsite
#15048191
Tainari88 wrote:Softie at heart? He is an unpredictable fool Blackjack. And the deep state is not happy he is not predictable. Frankly that is probably going to be his fatal mistake. Not being consistent.

President Trump is an unpredictable genius and the Trump of God.
Praise the Lord.

late wrote:Manana, people will see. Just like they did in Watergate.

I believe people will see, just like with the Mueller report. There was no there, there.
HalleluYah
User avatar
By blackjack21
#15048215
Tainari88 wrote:Softie at heart? He is an unpredictable fool Blackjack. And the deep state is not happy he is not predictable. Frankly that is probably going to be his fatal mistake. Not being consistent.

Being predictable makes a person easy to ambush. Trump has proved unpredictable for these investigations too, but far from foolish. He flooded Muller with over 1M emails and documents. He released the transcripts between himself and Zelensky. Most other presidents would hide that sort of thing. Obama would claim to be the most transparent president, but completely hide legislation from the public like ObamaCare and TPP. By contrast, Trump has held cabinet meetings with the press present and left Washington pols shocked.

You and I see this differently, because I see the end of the old system in Washington coming--which will ultimately happen to healthcare and higher education too. Nearly everything produced today is less expensive than it was 50 years ago, except government services, education and healthcare. The rackets are under assault. They are excellent bullshiters, but they are no longer needed and our lives will be more prosperous and peaceful without them.

I don't know if you know of Jacob Rees-Mogg MP, but I used to read his father's columns and also read his book The Sovereign Individual. He looked at the welfare state much like the pre-Reformation Catholic church--rife with corruption and ripe for reformation. Those types of changes don't always happen peacefully. The deep state is going to fight to retain power, but people want change. Compare that list of body count to anything Trump has done. Trump is a pussy cat compared to the establishment thuggery.

late wrote:1) What I said was accurate, what I was responding to was the sort of sickening lie no responsible adult should use.

The whistleblower law is intended for activity internal to a government agency. In this case, it would have happened within the CIA. It didn't. The complainant received classified information he was probably not authorized to receive, incorporated it as hearsay in a complaint for activity not within his agency which he did not witness himself, and coordinated with the House intelligence committee in order to further an impeachment of the president of the United States. The whistleblower law protects you if they investigate your peers or chain of command and they are found not guilty, so the anonymity is intended to be internal to the agency not nationwide and certainly not in a criminal complaint against anyone. If a whistleblower action goes forward and the whistleblower is the main witness, the whistleblower's identity gets revealed because defendants have a right to confront their accuser in the United States. It's fundamental to our system of justice.

late wrote:2) Which is not the lie the lying liars have been lying about for years and years and...

It does not change the fact that a professional relationship with the Clintons reduces life expectancy to a statistically significant degree.

late wrote:3) It's the sort of thing that Snopes will debunk in a week.

Snopes is not a legally constituted tribunal. "Debunk" doesn't mean anything at law. Neither does "discredited."

late wrote:4) It's still a vile character assassination.

Generally, cross examination is character assassination. Have you ever seen a trial? Do you know what they are about? Do you know why attorneys get paid well?

late wrote:5) The other witnesses have corroborated the whistleblower.

Corroborated hearsay is still hearsay. Only Vindman was on the call, and Vindman cannot identify a crime as defined by the United States Code or the Code of Federal Regulations. Pretty much everyone else who has testified has never met Trump, spoken with Trump or communicated with Trump via email or paper correspondence. It's simply conjecture--idle speculation.

We already know what we're going to get. "(sob, sob) I'm really scared for the country! (sob sob) I don't trust this president. (sob sob)" It's the Kavanaugh hearings again. Unlike the Kavanaugh hearing, Trump doesn't even get to call witnesses to his own defense. Every single violation of due process is being done hear with the whole world watching. Nobody in their right mind would believe the American system is fair to anyone at this point.

late wrote:Which raises the question is why there is a howling Republican lynch mob.

He's represented by an attorney who tweeted about coups and set up a 501(c)(3) to help whistleblowers (without first studying regulations against gifts to government employees), he met with Schiff's staff before filing the complaint, he also met with Alexandra Chalupa who was part of the 2016 effort to dig up dirt on Trump via the Ukrainian foreign service.

late wrote:Oh wait, they want to send a message to everyone in the government what happens when you cross the mob boss.

Trump is a pussycat. He barks like a Rottweiler and bites like a Bichon.

late wrote:6) The CIA was doing it's job. Along with the State Dept, the NSC and pretty much everybody else.

Ciaramella's job is not to establish foreign policy for Ukraine. It's to provide analysis about Ukraine as directed by his superiors. The State Department's job is to carry out the President's foreign policy. They do not set policy. The president does.

late wrote:7) What's the difference between legitmate and character assassination? Facts, which you do not have.

Ciaramella was set up for this operation. Zaid had set up the fund before the call even took place. They were just looking for an opportunity. They did not expect Trump to release the transcript, which would have allowed them to shape the narrative.

late wrote:The president admitted it on tv (something he does a lot), Mulvaney said "get over it", and a ton of witnesses are confirming it.

Confirming what? That he had a phone conversation with the president of Ukraine? The transcript is available. So is Ciaramella's complaint, which so far has insufficient evidence. This is why they moved away from "quid pro quo" to "bribery" and "extortion", both of which require a quid pro quo as an essential element of the offense. There is frankly nothing there.
By late
#15048232
blackjack21 wrote:
There is frankly nothing there.



According to experts, like former Watergate prosecutors, there is enough for a number of impeachments.

You write fiction.

You know the old saying? Facts talk, and bullshit walks.

Propaganda can work quite well, within limits. Being creatures of wretched excess, those limits were exceeded some time ago.

Time to pay the piper.
User avatar
By Finfinder
#15048258
Stormsmith wrote:On Russia: that may or may not turn into something, but this is immediate and convincible owing to Mulvaney's admission
.


LOL there has been at least 3 investigations on Russia and they found no American colluded with Russia. You are not open to the truth apparently. Noted.
User avatar
By jimjam
#15048311
Ambassador Taylor and Mr Kent's opening statements were devastating for the Trump Presidency. To see it spelled out by experts as to how dangerous it is to our national security/interests to withhold this aid to Ukraine was something I was aware of but without fulling grasping how dangerous it was.
User avatar
By blackjack21
#15048409
late wrote:According to experts, like former Watergate prosecutors, there is enough for a number of impeachments.

Here we go with the "experts" again. :roll: I was in flight much of the day, but I watched some of the highlights and I'm nonplussed by the entire thing. At one point, that old REO Speedwagon song popped into my head, "Heard it from a friend who, heard it from a friend who, heard it from another you've been messing around." The term "Schiff show" is now in general currency.

late wrote:You write fiction.

I write technical guides for engineers.

late wrote:You know the old saying? Facts talk, and bullshit walks.

Propaganda can work quite well, within limits. Being creatures of wretched excess, those limits were exceeded some time ago.

Time to pay the piper.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

jimjam wrote:Ambassador Taylor and Mr Kent's opening statements were devastating for the Trump Presidency.

If doubling over laughing and getting a hernia is devastating, perhaps.

jimjam wrote:To see it spelled out by experts as to how dangerous it is to our national security/interests to withhold this aid to Ukraine was something I was aware of but without fulling grasping how dangerous it was.

While fentanyl from China pours into the US over the Mexican border and kills 300 Americans a week? The deep state is good at spinning yarns, but those guys are well passed their prime. I'm now for removing civil service protection for State Department jobs that have anything to do with policy. Everyone should be at-will.

late wrote:According to experts, like former Watergate prosecutors, there is enough for a number of impeachments.

Here we go with the "experts" again. :roll: I was in flight much of the day, but I watched some of the highlights and I'm nonplussed by the entire thing. At one point, that old REO Speedwagon song popped into my head, "Heard it from a friend who, heard it from a friend who, heard it from another you've been messing around." The term "Schiff show" is now in general currency.

late wrote:You write fiction.

I write technical guides for engineers.

late wrote:You know the old saying? Facts talk, and bullshit walks.

Propaganda can work quite well, within limits. Being creatures of wretched excess, those limits were exceeded some time ago.

Time to pay the piper.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

jimjam wrote:Ambassador Taylor and Mr Kent's opening statements were devastating for the Trump Presidency.

If doubling over laughing and getting a hernia is devastating, perhaps.

jimjam wrote:To see it spelled out by experts as to how dangerous it is to our national security/interests to withhold this aid to Ukraine was something I was aware of but without fulling grasping how dangerous it was.

While fentanyl from China pours into the US over the Mexican border and kills 300 Americans a week? The deep state is good at spinning yarns, but those guys are well passed their prime. I'm now for removing civil service protection for State Department jobs that have anything to do with policy. Everyone should be at-will. Wh
late wrote:According to experts, like former Watergate prosecutors, there is enough for a number of impeachments.

Here we go with the "experts" again. :roll: I was in flight much of the day, but I watched some of the highlights and I'm nonplussed by the entire thing. At one point, that old REO Speedwagon song popped into my head, "Heard it from a friend who, heard it from a friend who, heard it from another you've been messing around." The term "Schiff show" is now in general currency.

late wrote:You write fiction.

I write technical guides for engineers.

late wrote:You know the old saying? Facts talk, and bullshit walks.

Propaganda can work quite well, within limits. Being creatures of wretched excess, those limits were exceeded some time ago.

Time to pay the piper.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

jimjam wrote:Ambassador Taylor and Mr Kent's opening statements were devastating for the Trump Presidency.

If doubling over laughing and getting a hernia is devastating, perhaps.

jimjam wrote:To see it spelled out by experts as to how dangerous it is to our national security/interests to withhold this aid to Ukraine was something I was aware of but without fulling grasping how dangerous it was.

While fentanyl from China pours into the US over the Mexican border and kills 300 Americans a week? We've got bigger problems. The deep state is good at spinning yarns, but those guys are well passed their prime. I'm now for removing civil service protection for State Department jobs that have anything to do with policy. Everyone should be at-will. Were you aware that Obama withheld military aid to Ukraine through the entirety of his presidency? Were you aware that Obama didn't even deliver humanitarian relief directly to Ukraine, but dropped it off outside Ukraine's border? Were you aware that it was Schiff who was bagging on Obama for not providing military supplies to Ukraine? Or is that something that you haven't fully grasped yet either?

What happened today illustrates why Trump was elected in the first place. We have a deep state filled with has beens fighting the Cold War and Millennial political activists who think they are going to change the world with political correctness, etc. It's a Schiff Show.
By Sivad
#15048418
Trump fucked with the MIC's pork so the deep state is now once again trying to soft coup his ass. You don't get between the MIC and a half billion dollar military aide package, that's just asking to be soft couped.

it is ironic that the house dems are going after Trump for politically motivated abuse of power by abusing their power with a bogus staged politically motivated impeachment meant to prevent their presidential candidate from being held accountable for abusing his power. the retarded fucking farce is in full swing and it's only gonna get more and more retardeder from here on out.
By Sivad
#15048423
blackjack21 wrote:It's a Schiff Show.



Oh, yeah!
You gotta get Schifty
You gotta get Schifty in here
It's time to get Schifty
Oh, oh
You gotta get Schifty
Oh, yeah!


Take off your pants and your panties
Shit on the floor
Time to get Schifty in here
Gotta shit on the floor
I'm Mr. Bulldops
I'm Mr. Bulldops
Take a shit on the floor
Take off your panties and your pants
It's time to get Schifty in here
By Hindsite
#15048429
jimjam wrote:Ambassador Taylor and Mr Kent's opening statements were devastating for the Trump Presidency. To see it spelled out by experts as to how dangerous it is to our national security/interests to withhold this aid to Ukraine was something I was aware of but without fulling grasping how dangerous it was.

Since I am retired and had nothing important to do today, I watched all of the impeachment inquiry, and as I suspected there was no there, there. Once the Republicans got a chance to cross examine the two witnesses, it was clear to me that lying "shifty" Adam Schiff might as well close up shop, if these were his star witnesses. Their testimony was basically all hearsay and what he read in the New York Times, except for Ambassador Taylor's first hand knowledge that President Zelenskyy of Ukraine did not know that U.S. aid was being withheld or delayed at the time he talked to President Trump. Taylor seemed to have hurt feelings that he was not being briefed on everything that others representing President Trump were doing on foreign policy with Ukraine. He referred to it as a shadow foreign policy and was concerned that it was undermining his credibility with Ukraine officials. Poor fellow.
By late
#15048443
Sivad wrote:
it's only gonna get more and more retardeder from here on out.



So true.

I enjoyed watching Republicans try to get cute in the hearings. They danced around the obvious, unable to commit in public to full on batshit crazy.

But if they want to build their Potemkin village, they are going to have to do the crazy angry White guy dance.

So it will be exactly as you say.
User avatar
By Beren
#15048460
The Guardian wrote:Trump cared more about investigating Biden than Ukraine, key witness reveals

House begins public hearings with testimonies from Bill Taylor and George Kent as president struggles to prevent investigation


Tom McCarthy in New York and David Smith in Washington

Wed 13 Nov 2019 21.12 GMTFirst published on Wed 13 Nov 2019 07.00 GMT



Trump impeachment inquiry: highlights from day one

Donald Trump cared more about investigating his political rival Joe Biden than the fate of Ukraine, according to dramatic testimony from a key witness in the first impeachment inquiry hearing before the American public.

Less than a year before the president faces re-election, the House of Representatives began public hearings on Wednesday into allegations that Trump abused the power of his office.

As Adam Schiff, the Democratic chair, gaveled the House intelligence committee into session, cameras from every major network carried the proceedings to millions of Americans, some of whom were encountering the allegations against Trump for the first time.

In an opening statement, Schiff said the hearings would explore whether Trump sought to exploit Ukraine’s vulnerability, condition White House acts on Ukraine’s willingness to help his re-election, and “whether such an abuse of his power is compatible with the presidency”.

Schiff said: “The matter is as simple and as terrible as that. Our answer to these questions will affect not only the future of this presidency but the future of the presidency itself.”

Trump filled his Twitter account on Wednesday morning with video clips of his defenders attacking the proceedings. But in the hearing room, new testimony tied Trump directly to a plot to condition US military aid and a White House visit on a Ukrainian announcement of the Biden investigation.

Bill Taylor, the acting US ambassador to Ukraine, and George Kent, a state department deputy assistant secretary, were the first witnesses to be called. Taylor said one of his aides had heard Gordon Sondland, the US ambassador to the EU, talking to Trump on the phone in July.

Taylor said: “Following the phone call with President Trump, the member of my staff asked Ambassador Sondland what President Trump thought about Ukraine. Ambassador Sondland responded that Trump cares more about the investigations of Biden, which [Trump’s personal lawyer, Rudy] Giuliani was pressing for.”

The opening of the public impeachment hearings was a day Trump has struggled furiously to prevent, blocking witnesses, attacking investigators and throwing up a social media smokescreen. Trump has claimed his push for investigations in Ukraine arose from his concern about corruption in the country.

“I’m too busy to watch it,” Trump told reporters about the hearings. “It’s a witch-hunt, it’s a hoax.”

ImageBill Taylor arrives to testify. Photograph: Saul Loeb/AP

The White House press secretary, Stephanie Grisham, tweeted that the hearings were “boring”.

Devin Nunes, the senior Republican on the committee, declared the proceedings a “low-rent Ukrainian sequel” to the Russia investigation and said “it’s nothing more than an impeachment process in search of a crime.”

Republicans sought to blunt the impact of the testimony by pointing out that the witnesses had not had direct conversations with Trump about his intentions. They also argued that in asking for investigations, Trump was pursuing a legitimate anti-corruption agenda in Ukraine. Democrats responded that Trump has not expressed any anti-corruption initiative not having to do with Biden.

Taylor said: “I am not here to take one side or the other, or to advocate for any particular outcome of these proceedings. My purpose is to provide the facts as I know them.”

Taylor described his concern to discover, last spring, an informal policy channel in Ukraine led by Giuliani, and advanced by US officials close to the White House, including Sondland.

Sondland told Taylor that he had told the Ukrainians that “everything” – military aid and a White House meeting for Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy – depended on Zelenskiy’s willingness to announce an investigation of Biden, Trump’s political rival, Taylor testified.

With a half-century of foreign service experience between them, the witnesses described a US policy of supporting Ukraine as a frontline state against what they said was a Russian assault on the “rules-based order” in eastern Europe. For the newly elected Zelenskiy, Kent testified, a White House meeting would be crucial.

“A meeting with the US president in the Oval Office at the White House” would be seen, said Kent, “as the ultimate sign of endorsement and support from the United States”.

The US demand that Ukraine pursue politically motivated investigations, and the withholding of aid for Ukraine, undermined US efforts to promote the rule of law and threatened to give Russia a free hand in the region, the diplomats testified.


Could Donald Trump actually be impeached?

Taylor was asked what he meant when he said in a text message obtained by the committee that withholding security assistance for Ukraine to help a political campaign was “crazy”.

“To withhold that assistance for no good reason other than to help with a political campaign made no sense,” Taylor said. “It was counterproductive. It was illogical, it could not be explained, it was crazy.”

The White House and its allies sought to dismiss the hearing as dull and irrelevant. Press secretary Stephanie Grisham and Trump’s son, Eric, both dismissed it as “boring”, with Eric adding “#Snoozefest” in a tweet.

The president himself seemed to have found the historic day soporific, judging by his low-energy, croaky-voiced performance at a joint press conference at the White House with Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdoğan which started an hour late.

“Are you talking about the witch hunt?” Trump asked a reporter. “Is that what you mean? Is that what you’re talking about? I hear it’s a joke. I haven’t watched, I haven’t watched for one minute because I’ve been with the president, which is much more important as far as I’m concerned.”

Corey Brettschneider, the author of The Oath and the Office: A Guide to the Constitution for Future Presidents and a professor of constitutional law at Brown University, said that the president’s powers do not include exercising foreign policy for his own personal benefit.

“The framers dedicated a significant amount of time to thinking about this,” Brettschneider said. “They made a deliberate decision to say ‘high crimes and misdemeanors’, emphasizing that if the president abused power – not just committed a crime – then he or she would be removed.”

As to Trumpgates, Ukraine > Russia. Trump's only credible defence could be that he's crazy. :lol:

This is exactly when the ice cream (Ukraine/Zelenskiy) licks back. :)

By late
#15048466
The Justice Dept is required to avoid even the appearance of a conflict of appearance. Now that Sondland's testimony has been called into question twice, you have a blatant conflict of interest if the AG is Republican.

So, in the unlikely event that Pence (or any other Republican) becomes president, and appoints an AG that isn't a Mob lawyer, they would have no choice but to convene a grand jury to look into it.
User avatar
By jimjam
#15048508
The House Intelligence Committee kicked off its public impeachment hearings Wednesday with the famous phone call between Trump and Zelensky, who was ebullient about winning the parliamentary elections. After swooping through congratulations, Trump got to, “I would like you to do us a favor though.” Which of course involved an investigation into Hunter Biden’s business dealings.

Much easier to move through this part if we all agree in advance that taking a big-bucks job from a Ukrainian gas company when you know nothing whatsoever about gas is acceptable only if your father is not a famous politician and you won the post in an international lottery.

But before we leave the subject it is fair to point out that while the Intelligence Committee was holding its hearing, Trump was meeting with his great friend Turkish President Recep Erdogan? And to wonder if they took the opportunity to discuss Erdogan’s son-in-law, the national finance minister, who is friends with the White House adviser Jared Kushner?
User avatar
By jimjam
#15048515
Perhaps the most telling remark was offered by a Republican staff lawyer, Stephen Castor, who suggested that while the president’s behavior may have been highly irregular, “it’s not as outlandish as it could be.” Here’s a tip: When “not as outlandish as it could be” is your strongest defense, it’s time to rethink your position.
User avatar
By Finfinder
#15048547
I thought one of the most telling remarks was Adam Schiff saying he did not know who the whistle blower was .

My favorite was the guy who heard a guy, who overheard another guy, that heard a conversation his boss had with Trump.
User avatar
By Finfinder
#15048552
In a Democrat world with double standard laws that might happened but I wouldn't hold my breath. I get it though the left thinks they are allowed to break attorney client privilege at will, but then again congress can't do shit about it anyway if Giuliani doesn't testify.
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