Roger Stone pins the tail on the elephant - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15048610
The Roger Stone trial was a result of the Mueller investigation. That was redacted, but some of it has come out in court.

This trials makes clear there is more to the relationship between the Russian created Wikileaks, and the Trump campaign than they admitted. Some savvy journalists connected the dots, but this should put another Trump scoundrel in jail.

But perhaps most damning was the way this case revealed the extent of the coverup.

They knew they were doing wrong, and they went to great lengths to hide it.

I suspected the story here is simple, but covers a lot of ground. Putin collected Trump as an asset (Kompromat), encouraged him to run, and then helped him in a variety of ways. More about this will continue to see the light of day. Who knew about Parnas and Furman and how they were leading Guiliani around by the nose, a month ago.

At some point, we're going to have to talk about payback. Putin made a mistake attacking us, and there will be a price to pay for that. Once we dump the chump, that is.


https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/14/politics ... index.html
#15048614
late wrote:The Roger Stone trial was a result of the Mueller investigation. That was redacted, but some of it has come out in court.

This trials makes clear there is more to the relationship between the Russian created Wikileaks, and the Trump campaign than they admitted. Some savvy journalists connected the dots, but this should put another Trump scoundrel in jail.

But perhaps most damning was the way this case revealed the extent of the coverup.

They knew they were doing wrong, and they went to great lengths to hide it.

I suspected the story here is simple, but covers a lot of ground. Putin collected Trump as an asset (Kompromat), encouraged him to run, and then helped him in a variety of ways. More about this will continue to see the light of day. Who knew about Parnas and Furman and how they were leading Guiliani around by the nose, a month ago.

At some point, we're going to have to talk about payback. Putin made a mistake attacking us, and there will be a price to pay for that. Once we dump the chump, that is.


https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/14/politics ... index.html


All you have is Insinuation, Hearsay, and Russophobia, (the latter probably due to some ethno-tribal hatred), and you're bound to be disappointed, just as your type has been disappointed since 2016 and will again with this Impeachment attempt and the 2020 elections. Putin didn't attack you, Hillary Clinton, one of the worst possible candidates ever (so bad that democratic voters elected a African-American with a Arabic name to represent them instead of Hillary in 2008) decided to cover up her loss at the country's expense with these delusional conspiracy theories demonizing the Russians. For shame, if you have any!
#15048616
annatar1914 wrote:
All you have is Insinuation, Hearsay, and Russophobia

(the latter probably due to some ethno-tribal hatred)

and you're bound to be disappointed, just as your type has been disappointed since 2016 and will again with this Impeachment attempt and the 2020 elections.

For shame, if you have any!



Yeah, just like a bunch of other countries that developed shiny new cyberdefense programs because Russia didn't attack them.

Russians are fascinating. But the Russian government, that's a different story.

There's a Blue wave.

What goes around comes around.
#15048622
Yeah, just like a bunch of other countries that developed shiny new cyberdefense programs because Russia didn't attack them.


Paranoia is big business, and the Democrats are as much in the feeding trough of the Miltary-Industrial-National Security Complex as the GOP Establishment.

Russians are fascinating. But the Russian government, that's a different story.


Funny thing, most Russians agree that Putin is a patriot, but what real opposition to him as truly exists, thinks that he is too Liberal in the Western sense. Reflect on that.

There's a Blue wave.


No, there isn't. There's Big Money hiring rent-a-thugs and vote fraud, won't do a bit of good. What there really is, is hatred for all the corrupt Elites out there. I know that there are millions who voted for Obama to keep the corrupt warmongers Clinton, McCain, and Romney out of the Oval Office, and these very same millions who voted for Obama also voted for Donald Trump to keep the same bastards like Bush and the loathsome Clinton machine out of the Oval Office in turn.

What goes around comes around.


Ignite It, I'm waiting, and many like me.
#15048627
annatar1914 wrote:
Paranoia is big business



Funny thing, most Russians agree that Putin is a patriot, but what real opposition to him as truly exists, thinks that he is too Liberal in the Western sense. Reflect on that.



No, there isn't. There's Big Money hiring rent-a-thugs and vote fraud, won't do a bit of good. What there really is, is hatred for all the corrupt Elites out there. I know that there are millions who voted for Obama to keep the corrupt warmongers Clinton, McCain, and Romney out of the Oval Office, and these very same millions who voted for Obama also voted for Donald Trump to keep the same bastards like Bush and the loathsome Clinton machine out of the Oval Office in turn.



Ignite It, I'm waiting, and many like me.



So is BS.

Yeah, I know about the guys that miss Stalin. But they're not the guys Putin worries about. And kills.

Let me make this simple. Swing voters want somebody different if they're not happy, and they are rarely happy. This time they will be swinging against Trump.

You misunderstand. Putin attacked because of sanctions. They really cramp his style. Before that, what brought the USSR down was a combination of sanctions, and economic inefficiency inside the Soviet Union.

The quickest, and best, way to hurt Putin is by hitting his wallet. Sanctions, tariffs, prohibited importation of goods. You get the idea.

Putin can't survive without a river of money flowing under the table, and the ability to use it outside the country. If we wanted, we could do a lot more to hurt him economically. The Magnitsky Act hit him where he's most vulnerable. Putin is a lot like a mob crime boss. He pays his people under the table, if things get hot, he gets them a place outside the country. Russia has relied on human intelligence for centuries, and difficulty moving money outside the country slows that down.

If you want to say he can still launder money, that is very true. But it's a lot more expensive, and his funds are limited. Russia only has an economy the size of Italy.
#15048629
late wrote:I suspected the story here is simple, but covers a lot of ground. Putin collected Trump as an asset (Kompromat), encouraged him to run, and then helped him in a variety of ways. More about this will continue to see the light of day. Who knew about Parnas and Furman and how they were leading Guiliani around by the nose, a month ago.

Ok Boomer... :roll: If Putin was going to recruit an asset to run for president of the United States, why would he choose someone who had no prior political experience?

late wrote:Before that, what brought the USSR down was a combination of sanctions, and economic inefficiency inside the Soviet Union.

The quickest, and best, way to hurt Putin is by hitting his wallet. Sanctions, tariffs, prohibited importation of goods. You get the idea.

That sure prevented him from annexing the Crimea... :roll:

late wrote:Russia only has an economy the size of Italy.

Which begs the question: why should we be afraid of Russia?
#15048631
So is BS.


A man claims what he knows, and reflects it.

Yeah, I know about the guys that miss Stalin.


Not those guys. They, like you, are living in a Cold War fantasy.

But they're not the guys Putin worries about. And kills.


:roll: So you know who is on his kill list? Mainly Islamofascist Jihadis hired on by the John McCain/Hillary Clinton types these days.
Let me make this simple.


Oh, you don't have to do that on my account, although I'm just a hick from working class flyover country and all, with narry an ounce of political sense between my ears.


Swing voters want somebody different if they're not happy, and they are rarely happy. This time they will be swinging against Trump.


:lol:

We want to destroy the Establishment. We're not going to stop using the big orange wrecking ball against them.

You misunderstand.


I misunderstand. I must have 26.7 million misunderstandings, not to mention loved ones who your Establishment Liberal types ruined back in the 1990's. Yeah, love the Bushes and the Clintons.



Putin attacked because of sanctions.


Proof Putin ''attacked''? Sanctions are a joke, they've actually helped certain sectors of the Russian economy, such as agriculture. And China and Russia are even closer together.



They really cramp his style.


:lol:

You wouldn't know President V. V. Putin's style if he invited you to play table tennis with him.


Before that, what brought the USSR down was a combination of sanctions, and economic inefficiency inside the Soviet Union.


Bullshit. What brought the Soviet Union down was treason, just as treason is what is bringing the USA down.

The quickest, and best, way to hurt Putin is by hitting his wallet. Sanctions, tariffs, prohibited importation of goods. You get the idea.


Russia is an Anvil that has outworn many hammers. These people are weak and will break. And you know it too.

Putin can't survive without a river of money flowing under the table, and the ability to use it outside the country.


:lol:

President Putin isn't the Clintons or the Clinton Foundation.


If we wanted, we could do a lot more to hurt him economically.


Sure :excited:


The Magnitsky Act hit him where he's most vulnerable. Putin is a lot like a mob crime boss. He pays his people under the table, if things get hot, he gets them a place outside the country.


This isn't Arkansas in the 1980's under the Clintons :lol:

You're projecting a great deal.



Russia has relied on human intelligence for centuries


Human Intelligence is the only thing that can be relied upon ultimately, and requires actual Intelligence to see what the Intel is really saying. The American Establishment is corrupt and stupid, full of gerontocratic and mendacious fools. They don't even understand what little Intelligence they get that isn't biased by political correctness.



I notice too, that deep inside you understand the vile nature of the people you ''support''. It's almost over for them and you know it.

And as far as Russia's economy? From the ''Moscow Times'' which is a Liberal Moscovite rag critical often of Putin;




Russia 6th Largest Economy in World GDP Rankings
July 13, 2018
Ermakov / Flickr (CC BY-NC-ND 2.0)

Russia was the world’s sixth-largest global economy in 2017, in a World Bank ranking that adjusts GDP for price differences among countries.

Russia’s economy returned to a growth rate of 1.5 percent in 2017 after two years of decline brought on by Western sanctions and a collapse in global oil prices. The goods produced by a country can be measured by gross domestic product (GDP), as well as GDP based on purchasing power parity (PPP), which takes into consideration the relative prices of goods between nations.

New figures from the World Bank show that by gross domestic product based on purchasing power parity, the Russian economy ranks below China, the United States, India, Japan and Germany.

In total, the GDP by purchasing power parity in Russia was $3.7 trillion last year.


China ranked as the world’s largest economy by PPP last year with $23.3 trillion, followed by the United States with $19.4 trillion in total value of goods produced. India, Japan and Germany respectively logged $9.4 trillion, $5.6 trillion and $4.2 trillion in purchasing power.

In overall gross domestic product, the World Bank ranked Russia 11th, with $1.5 trillion in GDP, trailing behind Canada, Italy and Brazil. The United States and China topped the GDP rating at $19.4 trillion and $12.2 trillion each.

The Ministry of Economic Development projects overall GDP growth for Russia of 1.8 percent this year and 1.4 percent next year before accelerating to a 3 percent growth by 2022.
#15048649
It wasn't Putin who pushed the Donald to run,it was the Clintons. Even with hindsight this was a smart move on the Clintons part, Trump underperforming the Republican party as a whole by a significant margin.
#15048668
annatar1914 wrote:


1) Not those guys.


2) We want to destroy the Establishment. We're not going to stop using the big orange wrecking ball against them.


3) Proof Putin ''attacked''? Sanctions are a joke, they've actually helped certain sectors of the Russian economy, such as agriculture. And China and Russia are even closer together.


4) You wouldn't know President V. V. Putin's style if he invited you to play table tennis with him.


5) Bullshit. What brought the Soviet Union down was treason, just as treason is what is bringing the USA down.



6) Russia is an Anvil that has outworn many hammers. These people are weak and will break. And you know it too

7) In overall gross domestic product, the World Bank ranked Russia 11th, with $1.5 trillion in GDP, trailing behind Canada, Italy and Brazil.



1) You defined the opposition out of existence. So now you can't talk about them, because you painted yourself into a corner.

2) What a coincidence! Putin wants the same exact thing.. Wanting to trash the country is why Putin loves ya.

3) "Russian President Vladimir Putin’s request to U.S. President Donald Trump for a joint investigation of former U.S. officials sought by the Kremlin for “illegal activities,” including a U.S. ambassador to Russia, is just the latest effort in a years-long campaign to undermine a U.S. law that imposes financial sanctions on Putin’s officials...The law outraged Putin"
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKBN1KA15Z

4) Like most guys with dictatorial powers, he routinely does things that benefit himself, at the long term expense of his country. They wind up doing things like killing Magnitsky that have adverse effects like the Magnitsky Act.
https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/11/1 ... -survival/

5) The economy of the USSR collapsed. That's a fact.

"The Soviet command economy coordinated economic activity through the issuance of directives...The quandary for Soviet leadership was to create a more liberal market system in a society whose core foundations were characterized by centralized control...When the Soviet leadership relaxed control in order to save the faltering economic system, they helped create conditions that would lead to the country's dissolution..."
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/i ... ically.asp

I can go over this in more detail. The ruble was not convertible. No command economy could replace the flexibility of a free market economy. We got hit repeatedly by oil crises, but it never created a serious challenge to the country.

6) George F Kennan devised the Cold War, after WW2, to contain USSR agression through mostly economic means.

7) From your source: "In overall gross domestic product, the World Bank ranked Russia 11th, with $1.5 trillion in GDP, trailing behind Canada, Italy and Brazil." What I said was that the economy of Russia was the size of Italy. Thanks for confirming this.
#15048689
annatar1914 wrote:All you have is Insinuation, Hearsay, and Russophobia, (the latter probably due to some ethno-tribal hatred), and you're bound to be disappointed, just as your type has been disappointed since 2016 and will again with this Impeachment attempt and the 2020 elections. Putin didn't attack you, Hillary Clinton, one of the worst possible candidates ever (so bad that democratic voters elected a African-American with a Arabic name to represent them instead of Hillary in 2008) decided to cover up her loss at the country's expense with these delusional conspiracy theories demonizing the Russians. For shame, if you have any!


Here is a funy hedge your bet quote from the article.

"Deliberations are expected to begin Thursday. No matter what the jury decides, the proceedings have reframed Mueller's work for the American public."
#15048691
Finfinder wrote:
Here is a funny hedge your bet quote from the article.

"Deliberations are expected to begin Thursday. No matter what the jury decides, the proceedings have reframed Mueller's work for the American public."



It's accurate.

It's not really a hedged bet, either. This trial moved Trump, and his henchmen, closer to Putin.

It's a process. You know what a process is, it's what you have been trying to use to distract from the obvious wrongdoing.

Let me remind you, you've lost control of the House, and with it, the narrative.

The polls reflect that. The impeachment process, the revelations, the integrity of the people you have been maligning, these are things Joe Six Pack can understand.

So, my advice to Republicans is this, the truth does not always set you free.

It can also send you to jail.
#15048695
late wrote:It's accurate.

It's not really a hedged bet, either. This trial moved Trump, and his henchmen, closer to Putin.

It's a process. You know what a process is, it's what you have been trying to use to distract from the obvious wrongdoing.

Let me remind you, you've lost control of the House, and with it, the narrative.

The polls reflect that. The impeachment process, the revelations, the integrity of the people you have been maligning, these are things Joe Six Pack can understand.

So, my advice to Republicans is this, the truth does not always set you free.

It can also send you to jail.


Not that I put much stock in polls but tell POFO what the same polls are saying in swing states like Ohio Florida and MI.

BTW you would be the last person Id take advice from I can't recall anything in the last 3 years you and your ilk has predict correctly. There are too many bombshell failures to list.

What you need to be worried about is if the house impeaches Trump how much Mitch McConnell is going to annihilate the Democrats.
#15048744
"The panel of nine women and three men deliberated for less than two days before finding Stone, 67, guilty on all seven counts resulting from his September 2017 testimony to a House intelligence committee investigating Russian interference in the 2016 election and the Kremlin’s efforts to damage Trump’s Democratic opponent, Hillary Clinton."

"Stone joins a long line of Trump advisers and confidants either convicted or who have pleaded guilty in connection with the special counsel probe..."

Another Trump fool goes to jail.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/pu ... story.html
#15048755
The Guardian wrote:Roger Stone, a self-described “dirty trickster”

The Guardian wrote:The 67-year-old Stone, who also calls himself an agent provocateur

Keeping a low profile must be an unknown thing in Trump's circles. Right, Rudy? :lol:

Image

The Guardian wrote:Stone, a close Trump ally who has the face of former president Richard Nixon tattooed on his back

He should get another tattoo with Trump's face too. :lol:

ImageRoger Stone at the federal district court in Washington DC on Thursday. Photograph: Erik S Lesser/EPA

Roger Stone: Trump adviser found guilty on all counts in WikiLeaks hacking case
#15048759
@late , I will keep my answers brief because as a typical Liberal Bourgeoisie Capitalist I know that you will be incapable of replying in good faith, but here I go anyway;

1) You defined the opposition out of existence. So now you can't talk about them, because you painted yourself into a corner.


Wrong. You misunderstood me, and Russians. There is a very small and insignificant but loathsome would-be Comprador class of Westernizing traitors in Russia, which get the attention of the Globalizing Cosmopoles like themselves in the rest of the world. But I was speaking of patriotic Russians that are coming up after Putin (patriotic as he is) that will make him look like Yeltsin in comparison. You'll be wishing you had ol' Putin around then.

2) What a coincidence! Putin wants the same exact thing.. Wanting to trash the country is why Putin loves ya.


People that talk like this are insane. Putin has spent the better part of 20 years wanting a strong and secure America as a partner, a country to ally with against your Islamist-Fascist friends worldwide, but to little effect. Now that a US President wants decent relations with Russia that would be to the benefit of all mankind, it is pictured by your traitor Elites as something sinister...

3) "Russian President Vladimir Putin’s request to U.S. President Donald Trump for a joint investigation of former U.S. officials sought by the Kremlin for “illegal activities,” including a U.S. ambassador to Russia, is just the latest effort in a years-long campaign to undermine a U.S. law that imposes financial sanctions on Putin’s officials...The law outraged Putin"
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKBN1KA15Z


The ''Magnitsky Act'' is a Obama era law that only was created to cover up financial misdeeds by US/Russian businessmen, by blackwashing Russia's government.

4) Like most guys with dictatorial powers, he routinely does things that benefit himself, at the long term expense of his country. They wind up doing things like killing Magnitsky that have adverse effects like the Magnitsky Act.
https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/11/1 ... -survival/


People that say Putin is a Dictator have never been to Russia, the idea is frankly deranged.

5) The economy of the USSR collapsed. That's a fact.

"The Soviet command economy coordinated economic activity through the issuance of directives...The quandary for Soviet leadership was to create a more liberal market system in a society whose core foundations were characterized by centralized control...When the Soviet leadership relaxed control in order to save the faltering economic system, they helped create conditions that would lead to the country's dissolution..."
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/i ... ically.asp

I can go over this in more detail. The ruble was not convertible. No command economy could replace the flexibility of a free market economy. We got hit repeatedly by oil crises, but it never created a serious challenge to the country.


Yet. Just wait.

But fact is that it was the increasing urge to adopt Capitalism and loot the former Soviet Union that caused it's collapse. Ask people that were there, who lived during that period. It was a mass fire-sale of resources and monitization of flight capital looted from the people. 8 to 10 million people starved to death in the 1990's, so fuck your white wash of this fascistic banditry.

6) George F Kennan devised the Cold War, after WW2, to contain USSR agression through mostly economic means.


The aggression was mutual. For example Soviet Union put missiles in Cuba in response to US missiles in Turkey. US threatened nuclear war over Missiles in Cuba and they were withdrawn, while the US Missiles in Turkey remained.

7) From your source: "In overall gross domestic product, the World Bank ranked Russia 11th, with $1.5 trillion in GDP, trailing behind Canada, Italy and Brazil." What I said was that the economy of Russia was the size of Italy. Thanks for confirming this.


Point being, just saying ''behind Italy'' without context means nothing. Russia came up from basically nothing by 2000 AD, after a century of wars and revolution and millions dead-those 27.6 million deaths in the Great Patriotic War I alluded to, and a decade perched on the very abyss under Yeltsin's misrule. President Putin has worked hard to bring Russia forwards, and this, this reason only, is why he is hated. Because Russia's existence and possibility of rebirth is hated.
#15048773
annatar1914 wrote:[usermention=41202]

1) @late[/usermention] , I will keep my answers brief because as a typical Liberal Bourgeoisie Capitalist I know that you will be incapable of replying in good faith, but here I go anyway;



2) Wrong. You misunderstood me



3) People that talk like this are insane.



4) The ''Magnitsky Act'' is a Obama era law that only was created to cover up financial misdeeds by US/Russian businessmen, by blackwashing Russia's government.



5) People that say Putin is a Dictator have never been to Russia, the idea is frankly deranged.



6) Yet. Just wait.

7)But fact is that it was the increasing urge to adopt Capitalism and loot the former Soviet Union that caused it's collapse. Ask people that were there, who lived during that period. It was a mass fire-sale of resources and monitization of flight capital looted from the people. 8 to 10 million people starved to death in the 1990's, so fuck your white wash of this fascistic banditry.



8) The aggression was mutual. For example Soviet Union put missiles in Cuba in response to US missiles in Turkey. US threatened nuclear war over Missiles in Cuba and they were withdrawn, while the US Missiles in Turkey remained.



9) Point being, just saying ''behind Italy'' without context means nothing.

10) Russia came up from basically nothing by 2000 AD, after a century of wars and revolution and millions dead-those 27.6 million deaths in the Great Patriotic War I alluded to, and a decade perched on the very abyss under Yeltsin's misrule. President Putin has worked hard to bring Russia forwards, and this, this reason only, is why he is hated. Because Russia's existence and possibility of rebirth is hated.



1) Project much?

2) We were saying the same thing with different language.

3) So call me crazy. Putin was KGB, he still thinks like KGB.

4)"In 2009, Russian tax accountant Sergei Magnitsky died in a Moscow prison after investigating a $230 million fraud involving Russian tax officials.."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnitsky_Act

So we force him to kill. And poison. And throw people out of 4th story windows, and make people disappear...

5) "Experts do not generally consider Russia to be a democracy, citing purges and jailing of political opponents, curtailed press freedom, and the lack of free and fair elections.[17][18][19][20][21] Russia has scored poorly in Transparency International's Corruption Perceptions Index and experienced democratic backsliding according to both the Economist Intelligence Unit's Democracy Index and Freedom House's Freedom in the World index (including a record low 20/100 rating in the 2017 Freedom in the World report, a rating not given since the time of the Soviet Union). Human rights organizations and activists have accused Putin of persecuting political critics and activists, as well as ordering them tortured or assassinated.."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin

6) I don't disagree, but then I am a bit of a pessimist.

7) I see that a lot. It's wildly inaccurate.

a) The ruble was nonconvertible. That means foreign trade was barter. That's just stupid. Barter is quite inefficient.

b) A command economy simply doesn't work over the long run. It worked when they had a simple economy. But as they developed into an industrial power, things started going wrong. In a market economy, millions of decisions are made that make millions of micro-adjustments. In a command economy, you get thousands of decisions. No bureaucracy could keep up. Even with supercomputers, a command economy wouldn't work, because it's not just processing power, there is also problems with information flow.

c) The other part of this is much simpler. Capitalism requires capital. Any country creating a market economy has to build up capital. This is usually ugly. The novels of Charles Dickens are about this, but the reality was much worse than anything he could have published. But, if you go through it, you wind up living like they do in Norway or France.

8) That is true. We were in a better position, and took advantage of it. But what we're talking about is the Russian perception that being nice to countries like Ukraine is aggression. That's both Russian paranoia, and Putin wanting to put the empire back together.

9) Incorrect, it means Russia has an economy the size of Italy. Like Italy, it's not especially healthy. We were talking about capital? Putin is sucking it down trying to put the empire back together. Look at history, revanchists are losers.

10) Love the paranoia. After the USSR died, the West spent hundreds of millions trying to develop Russia. It didn't work because we needed to spend a lot more. Like the Marshall Plan.

The bottom line is that we didn't spend millions and send thousands of people because we hated Russia.

We still don't. But we'd be happier if Putin would play nice for a change.
#15048793
late wrote:1) Project much?

2) We were saying the same thing with different language.

3) So call me crazy. Putin was KGB, he still thinks like KGB.

4)"In 2009, Russian tax accountant Sergei Magnitsky died in a Moscow prison after investigating a $230 million fraud involving Russian tax officials.."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnitsky_Act

So we force him to kill. And poison. And throw people out of 4th story windows, and make people disappear...

5) "Experts do not generally consider Russia to be a democracy, citing purges and jailing of political opponents, curtailed press freedom, and the lack of free and fair elections.[17][18][19][20][21] Russia has scored poorly in Transparency International's Corruption Perceptions Index and experienced democratic backsliding according to both the Economist Intelligence Unit's Democracy Index and Freedom House's Freedom in the World index (including a record low 20/100 rating in the 2017 Freedom in the World report, a rating not given since the time of the Soviet Union). Human rights organizations and activists have accused Putin of persecuting political critics and activists, as well as ordering them tortured or assassinated.."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin

6) I don't disagree, but then I am a bit of a pessimist.

7) I see that a lot. It's wildly inaccurate.

a) The ruble was nonconvertible. That means foreign trade was barter. That's just stupid. Barter is quite inefficient.

b) A command economy simply doesn't work over the long run. It worked when they had a simple economy. But as they developed into an industrial power, things started going wrong. In a market economy, millions of decisions are made that make millions of micro-adjustments. In a command economy, you get thousands of decisions. No bureaucracy could keep up. Even with supercomputers, a command economy wouldn't work, because it's not just processing power, there is also problems with information flow.

c) The other part of this is much simpler. Capitalism requires capital. Any country creating a market economy has to build up capital. This is usually ugly. The novels of Charles Dickens are about this, but the reality was much worse than anything he could have published. But, if you go through it, you wind up living like they do in Norway or France.

8) That is true. We were in a better position, and took advantage of it. But what we're talking about is the Russian perception that being nice to countries like Ukraine is aggression. That's both Russian paranoia, and Putin wanting to put the empire back together.

9) Incorrect, it means Russia has an economy the size of Italy. Like Italy, it's not especially healthy. We were talking about capital? Putin is sucking it down trying to put the empire back together. Look at history, revanchists are losers.

10) Love the paranoia. After the USSR died, the West spent hundreds of millions trying to develop Russia. It didn't work because we needed to spend a lot more. Like the Marshall Plan.

The bottom line is that we didn't spend millions and send thousands of people because we hated Russia.

We still don't. But we'd be happier if Putin would play nice for a change.


At this point I could go on, but we're talking past each other, living and thinking in separate realities. But one of them is true and the other is delusional.

But I will say this; you did not ''develop'' Russia or any other place, ''you'' looted it as a resource colony that fell into your hands because of mercenary traitors and thieves. Lives were lost, lives were ruined, millions suffered. There will be a reckoning, in this world or the next. Russia is clawing her way back, not to ''Empire'' as you hypocritically ''measure the neighbor's corn by your own bushel'', but to what is proper to the brotherhood of all the Russias.

''Sic transit Gloria Mundi'', time is coming for a changing of the Guard.
#15048827
annatar1914 wrote:
1) But I will say this; you did not ''develop'' Russia or any other place

2) ''you'' looted it as a resource colony that fell into your hands because of mercenary traitors and thieves. Lives were lost, lives were ruined, millions suffered.

3)There will be a reckoning, in this world or the next. Russia is clawing her way back, not to ''Empire'' as you hypocritically ''measure the neighbor's corn by your own bushel'', but to what is proper to the brotherhood of all the Russias.

4) ''Sic transit Gloria Mundi'', time is coming for a changing of the Guard.



1) Not what I said. I said we tried, and that we wouldn't have tried if we hated Russia.

2) Millions were suffering before all that, as a result of the economic collapse. Blame for that falls on Russia... Every successful market economy has had to make that transition. Russia fell back into it's old habits. Back when this was happening, a conservative pundit said Russian history and culture would bring back strong man rule. I disagreed, at the time, but he was right and I was wrong.

3) I visited Soviet dominated Hungary and got an earful of how much Hungarians loved having a Soviet boot on their neck. Revanchism is still for losers.

4) Don't think much of China's success will help Russia. That relationship goes very hot, and very cold, and has for centuries. The Chinese do not forget, tovarish.

But you do have a point. Trump has gutted our standing in the world. With Putin's help, of course.
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