Turkey & Libya agree to split Greek territory, Libya invites Turkey to send military - Page 5 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15059879
QatzelOk wrote:Not you (or me), but your country (and mine).

We (as in Greeks and Canadians) sat on our hands while our leaders joined in with the USA and EU in re-colonizing much of Africa and the Middle East. So if our sovereignty is next, no one will care about that either.


Again you are wrong. Greece, the country supported Libya & Qaddafi both in the past as well as in 2011. Qaddafi himself received his education & training in the Military Academy of Athens and successfully organised his Libya coup in 1969 from Greece.

Patrickov wrote:Had Libya been stable since 2011, and other regimes like Assad been defeated as well, Gaddafi's fall would have been seen as some kind of necessary evil at worst.


There is Greek saying that goes like, "had my grandma balls she would be my granda". :roll:

QatzelOk wrote:So if a woman has to kick a guy in the balls to avoid being raped, then her sovereignty is bullshit (to you)


That is your argument Qatz. You said that you will support might makes right as long as no country is free as per your ideal.
#15059880
QatzelOk wrote:So if a woman has to kick a guy in the balls to avoid being raped, then her sovereignty is bullshit (to you)?


That is a reasonable means in that circumstance.

And I think this example is a very inaccurate parable of politics, because people living in a nation all have their own thoughts and their own "sovereignty", which can be quite distinct from the so-called "sovereignty" as claimed to represent the whole people, but in practice only protects the ruling class.
#15059898
annatar1914 wrote::lol:

Why would Haftar sign a ceasefire that would only allow his enemies to rearm and regroup and prepare more for his final attacks, when he's got the momentum and is winning?

Oh, you want time for Turkey to save their Libyan puppets, got it ;)

Libya's populated areas are mostly under control of GNA. Haftar got desert parts.

I don't understand your underestimation of Turkey. Turkish nation has been proved itself throughout the history. We are also still partly Mongolian. Remember?
#15059926
Libya's populated areas are mostly under control of GNA. Haftar got desert parts.


You do know that most of Libya is under Haftar's control, right? Desert and populated areas? Plus controlling the desert between towns and cities and villages is critical for obvious reasons...In a desert country ;)

I don't understand your underestimation of Turkey.


Didn't say anything about underestimating anybody.

Turkish nation has been proved itself throughout the history.


Oh, you've proved yourselves alright.



We are also still partly Mongolian. Remember?


We do remember.
#15059933
noemon wrote:You said that you will support might makes right as long as no country is free as per your ideal.

I certainly didn't say that or suggest it.
I said that Greece (and Canada) have been playing games with the truth (in order to get money) for my entire lifetime. I am only scaldingly aware of how horrible this is now, in my senior years because of increased knowledge of social issues and, in particular, the dead docility of suburban non-citizens.

That Greece (the country) supported Gaddafi and helped train him, is a great thing, in my mind. But there has nonetheless been great mendacity from official information sources all over the West. And the controlling classes of Greece have been onboard with this, and very influential - just like in all capitalist countries during late Modernity.

Patrickov wrote:...people living in a nation all have their own thoughts and their own "sovereignty", which can be quite distinct from the so-called "sovereignty" as claimed to represent the whole people, but in practice only protects the ruling class.

So Libya's independence ONLY protected the upper classes there, in your opinion, while the vassalhood of places like Colombia guarantee best-possible-outcomes for the average person?

This seems the opposite of the truth, to me. The loss of First Nations sovereignty in North America, for example, lead to decline, misery, and many other awful life conditions on both a personal and social level.

You will have to provide an example of where loss of sovereignty benefited the average person. (Ireland? Kuwait? Afghanistan? Haiti?)
#15059947
QatzelOk wrote:So Libya's independence ONLY protected the upper classes there, in your opinion, while the vassalhood of places like Colombia guarantee best-possible-outcomes for the average person?

This seems the opposite of the truth, to me. The loss of First Nations sovereignty in North America, for example, lead to decline, misery, and many other awful life conditions on both a personal and social level.

You will have to provide an example of where loss of sovereignty benefited the average person. (Ireland? Kuwait? Afghanistan? Haiti?)



I only talk about the idea in a general sense, and did not comment specifically to a country. It is a case-by-case basis, but I will say people of both Taiwan and Hong Kong, and to a lesser extent India and Vietnam, did have more improvement under colonial rule. South Africa and Zimbabwe probably were also worse off since independence. It is understood that the case is not applicable in the Americas and Australia, mainly because the Europeans exterminated native population.

If the discussion is focused on my comment about Libya, post #15059863 should be referenced instead.
#15060038
Patrickov wrote:...but I will say people of both Taiwan and Hong Kong, and to a lesser extent India and Vietnam, did have more improvement under colonial rule.

It's true that Vietnam didn't have to drink Napalm and Agent Orange while it was a French colony. But I'm not sure if 'having your farmland poisoned' was caused by increased sovereignty. Likewise, when young girls finally reveal that their father has been sexually abusing them, and they get thrown out of the house and beaten almost to death by the same father, I'm not sure if you can blame this on sovereignty.

If you do, then you are justifying some horribly abusive behavior. And by the way, so is this entire story - Turkey and NATO trying desparately to justify horrible international behavior with "solution" that are just more and more problems.
#15060045
QatzelOk wrote:It's true that Vietnam didn't have to drink Napalm and Agent Orange while it was a French colony. But I'm not sure if 'having your farmland poisoned' was caused by increased sovereignty. Likewise, when young girls finally reveal that their father has been sexually abusing them, and they get thrown out of the house and beaten almost to death by the same father, I'm not sure if you can blame this on sovereignty.


The turmoil was more rampant after the French were driven out and the United States stepped in. I also want to see if there is any counter-argument for the other three cases.

QatzelOk wrote:If you do, then you are justifying some horribly abusive behavior. And by the way, so is this entire story - Turkey and NATO trying desparately to justify horrible international behavior with "solution" that are just more and more problems.


I am at least doubtful on the claim that Turkey acting with NATO endorsement.
#15060122
Atlantis wrote:The Empire strikes again:

Image

What I don't understand is why they had to kill Qaddafi only to put a Qaddafi clone into power after years of civil war. Was it to promote the jihadists?

A lesson has been given, @Atlantis.
#15060173
Istanbuller wrote:Berlin talks are today. I don't expect a solution to be reached.

Free Syrian Army units deployed to Libya are ready to advance toward Haftar controlled areas. They have armed drones and Turkish Army assisatnce.

After achieving such great successes in Syria, I'm sure Libya will be a cakewalk for them. Lol.
#15060249
Potemkin wrote:After achieving such great successes in Syria, I'm sure Libya will be a cakewalk for them. Lol.

Free Syrian Army cleared most of Turkish-Syria border from ISIS and SDF terrorists. It is probably most mobilised and fresh army in Syria.

By the way, Berlin talks reached no conclusion.

Erdoğan will probably bomb Haftar very heavily. There is no way Turkey steps back from agreement with UN recognized government.
#15060285
Berlin Summit Conference Conclusions

@Istanbuller, The whole of the Arab world now hates Turkey and in Europe you are seen as the biggest supporter of terrorism.

So much winning :lol:

You need to better control the media activity of your resident jihadists or they'll keep on embarrassing you.

#15060287
Istanbuller wrote:Free Syrian Army cleared most of Turkish-Syria border from ISIS and SDF terrorists. It is probably most mobilised and fresh army in Syria.

By the way, Berlin talks reached no conclusion.

Erdoğan will probably bomb Haftar very heavily. There is no way Turkey steps back from agreement with UN recognized government.


Hey, it's Turkey's funeral.... The stakes are higher than you can imagine, but Erdogan does imagine the stakes, which is why he's throwing some expendable Jihadi meat shields ahead of Turkish forces, first.
#15060308
@Istanbuller, here's some news for you:

The European Union Court of Justice rules that the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) was wrongly on the list of terrorist organisations.

World Belgian court: PKK not a terrorist organization

Looks like things are turning against Turkey. I have always said that the AKP should replace the PKK on our list of terrorist organisations. We are now moving in that direction. It's not even a secret anymore that Turkey is the biggest sponsor of terror in the MENA.

That's what happens when wannabe Imperialists try to play with the big boys. They get burned.
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