Communism - Politics | PoFo

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Workers of the world, unite! Then argue about Trotsky and Stalin for all eternity...
Forum rules: No one line posts please.
By Delphi
I didn't see any posts here, and was surprised actually.

So I decided to post something now, and do some research and post something later.

Here the something now:


Here be something else to piss y'all off...

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By Yeddi
you forgot the I :roll: ;)
By sokath
Uhg, can't we just discuss the topic properly without any ideological interruptions. It's bad enough that S-E spiralled down into that pit of divisionist shit, but I don't think it should happen here! Even in jest!


By Jesse
Stalin, Trotsky, perhaps we should make one super loony, Statsky, or Trotlin. Then the bitching will stop! Praise and hallejuah!
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By echelon
rob404uk wrote:communism can never work, people need incentives, command economies cannot bring this in a system with human rights

the conditions set-up against the common people in kapitalism does not exist in our system. besides that, the belief that everyone is paid evenly in communism simply isn't true. there are factors such as skill level, and ability that are taken into consideration... which the common, incompetent bourgeois overlooks.

Q. Where is the incentive under Socialism?

A. "Where is the incentive under Socialism?" is a commonly asked question."If everyone is paid the same wage than where is the incentive for the worker to produce more than he has to or even the quota amount?"

Lenin explains in the "State and Revolution", and Marx explains in"Critique of the Gotha Program", it is impossible to jumpstraight from capitalism to the most advanced stage of human society - a classless society based on the democratic administration of things in the interests of all. Communism is based on being able to provide more than needed for everyone - and though in the US we could reach that level fairly quickly, it is still not there right now. This is why a transitionalperiod, which we often refer to as socialism is necessary.

During this timethere will still be elements of the old society (some market economy, some armed forces until the whole world is in the deomcratic hands of theworkers, etc.) But already things will be moving rapidly towards thecomplete dissolution of the state, of the market economy and so on. Once the workers begin to democraticly all plan the BIG industries - the ones which dominate ourlives - energy, banking, agriculture, pharmaceuticals, etc., then we will be putting the surplus produced by the workers towards improving our lives.

New technology and greater productivity of labor will lead to a decrease inthe working day, to more time for study, travel, exploration, research,music, art, culture, etc. Nowadays the incentive to work harder is "work so you can pay your rent, your mortgage, your interest on credit card and school loans, your over-priced food, healthcare, transportation, and entertainment, and so on or STARVE". THAT is the only incentive capitalism offers us! Why work more efficiently at work if you know you have to be there for 8 hours no matter what?

Under socialism, the incentive to come up with more efficient ways to do things is that we'd have to work less time to do the same amount of work! The amount of NECESSARY labor needed to produce the things we NEED like food, housing, etc. would gradually decrease so that eventually we may only need to "work" for 2 hours a week or less! Of course as humans we would not be lazy and sit around - humans are curious, exploratory, and want to learn, invent, etc. Our "free" time would be spent creating ever better works of art, scientific research, cures for diseases,etc. After a period of time, the new generations will not even know what it was like under capitalism, and the productivity of labor will be tremendoulsy high. The barrier between "work" and raw human exploration and mastery over its environment (in harmony with the environment!) will disappear also - no more coercive state, police, etc. No more chaos in the markets - the workers will plan what we need and then reinvest a portion to continually make even better things. EVERYONE will be "rich" so to speak - able to travel, to live comfortably, to eat what they wish, to continue their education throughout life.

By the SovieT
he who can work and doesn shall not eat either...

i think thats one hell of a good incentive...
By CasX
Skullers wrote:
communism can never work

i laugh at your ignorance.

people need incentives

your point?

command economies cannot bring this in a system with human rights

and why not?

I am prepared to nominate that for the worst post ever.

"he who can work and doesn shall not eat either... " is a bit out of date. Might have been necessary after the 1917 revolution, but I don't think it is now. People who can work and choose not to should miss out on some things, but food shouldn't be one of them. It's a necessity for life, so should be guranteed to every single person.
By Skullers
I am prepared to nominate that for the worst post ever.

oh? and i'm supposed to reply with a 10-page article to his 1-line "communism wont work" post?

"he who can work and doesn shall not eat either... " is a bit out of date.

wrong. it won't be "out of date" UNTIL COMMUNIST 'UTOPIA' IS BUILT. we live in the real world. socialism is not some perfect world where everyone is happy, but it is the transitional stage to communism... huge progress must be made, terrible struggles must be won...

ps: you don't have to take that slogan TOO literally
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By ckaihatsu
#15060698 ... -Questions

-> Why should anyone give a shit about labor credits?

Let's say that 'work-from-home mattress testing' is the *easiest* work role ever known, and so the multiplier for it is a '1' -- one hour of liberated-labor yields 1 labor credit.

'Spreading manure on a field' happens to be a '4' according to the mass work-role exit survey, but, as things turn out, people have *not* yet automated this kind of farmwork, yet *many* people are demanding beer, which requires this role, and other kinds of farmwork, for its production.

While engineering students and a worldwide legion of hobbyists unobtrusively work in the background on automating this task once-and-for-all, some others note the disparity between supply and demand and opportunistically announce that *they* will do this kind of work, to produce an abundance of beer for the greater region, but only at a multiplier rate of '6'.

Why would *anyone* give a shit about labor credits and agree to do shitwork, even for an increased rate of labor credits, you ask -- ?

Because anyone who can command a *premium* of labor credits, as from higher multiplier rates, are effectively gaining and consolidating their control of society's *reproduction of labor*. Most likely there would be social ('political') factionalism involved, where those who are most 'socially concerned' or 'philosophically driven' would be coordinating to cover as much *unwanted* work territory as possible, all for the sake of political consolidation. Increased numbers of labor credits in-hand would allow a group to *direct* what social work roles are 'activated' (funded), going-forward.

Perhaps it's about colonizing another planet, or about carving high-speed rail networks that criss-cross and connect all seven continents underground. Maybe it's a certain academic approach to history and the sciences, with a cache of pooled labor credits going towards that school of educational instruction. Perhaps it's an *art* faction ascending, funding all kinds of large-scale projects that decorate major urban centers in never-before-seen kinds of ways.

Whatever the program and motivation, society as a whole would be collectively *ceding ground* if it didn't keep the 'revolution' and collectivism going, with a steady pace of automation that precluded whole areas of production from social politics altogether. Technology / automation empowers the *individual* and takes power out of the hands of groups that enjoy cohesiveness based on sheer *numbers* and a concomitant control of social reproduction in their ideological direction. The circulation and usage of labor credits would be a live formal tracking of how *negligent* the social revolution happened to be at any given moment, just as the consolidation of private property is today against the forces of revolutionary politics and international labor solidarity. ... ost2824831

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