Trump has been impeached - Page 34 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15061773
If America continues to vote in people like Trump. I wonder how many terms will it take before the government starts to look like the government of Mexico, India, etc. Basically governments that where the leaders basically don't give a shit about ethics or morals.

late wrote:Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.


Generally speaking, I disagree with this statement.

Indy wrote:I would probably be considered a "military type" and, given the slate of characters on the left, could certainly see supporting him again.


I see.
#15061781
late wrote:Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.


As a human being, I admit that I am incompetent most of the time.


late wrote:An ounce of diplomacy is worth more than a pound of military.


True, but there are occasions where opportunities for diplomacy are lost or denied. From various statement I saw on PoFo it seems that some good people have their opportunities of diplomacy brutally denied.
Last edited by Patrickov on 26 Jan 2020 19:10, edited 1 time in total.
By late
#15061783
Patrickov wrote:
True, but there are occasions where opportunities for diplomacy are lost or denied.



My situation is that we are leaving dozens of diplomatic possibilities on the table while we have soldiers across the planet.

Our recent wars were all easily avoidable and cost us trillions. Which is why our schools suck, our roads suck, etc.
#15061784
late wrote:My situation is that we are leaving dozens of diplomatic possibilities on the table while we have soldiers across the planet.

Our recent wars were all easily avoidable and cost us trillions. Which is why our schools suck, our roads suck, etc.



I do not mean a war overseas. I mean a war on the alleged wrongdoers, who are, regarding this topic, inside.

Whether this means something in a literal sense is up to whoever can take action.

And I do think that any kind of action should be taken with the objective that schools, infrastructure and the System as a whole are to be fixed after the obstacles are removed.
#15061797
late wrote:Our recent wars were all easily avoidable and cost us trillions. Which is why our schools suck, our roads suck, etc.


The US is slowly turning into a developing country. YOu have an elite class that is doing very well, while the rest get poorer and poorer. This has been playing out since about the 70s given that real wages have continued to drop, and the income gap has continued to grow. Voting for more people that are like Trump will accelerate this process.

The irony is, Trump and his supporters are trying to turn the US into Mexico in terms of how the government operates.
#15061798
jimjam wrote:I have found that the overall sweep of history is quite predictable while the details of history … less so. The "events" of history's sweep are tied together by one unchanging feature: human nature. Human nature tends to operate in a largely predictable fashion where the "strong" will dominate the "weaker" and acquire the wealth of the weak via force/intimidation. While timing is subject to a complex menu of factors, the behavior is very predictable. A short study of history will show how various countries/societies have essentially taken turns at subjugating other countries/regions for the purpose of siphoning off their wealth/power. The British "empire" is one of the best examples but many others have had their turn at the feeding trough. Spain, Holland, France, Portugal have all had their rise and fall in this behavior. America is situated upon, arguably, the most valuable piece of real estate in the world and is following aforementioned formula to a T. To America's credit it has embarked upon various forms of "humanitarian" behavior which, eventually, are pushed aside or used as a cover for exploitation of other societies and been either directly or not so directly responsible for the death and suffering of uncountable thousands. Now that America has entered the downward trajectory of it's period of "empire" they no longer have to pretend humanitarian motives. They sit atop a multi trillion dollar "defense" industry which can be used to intimidate the rest of the world. America's plutocratic ruling class knows this and is resolved to give up it's dominant position only after much kicking and screaming. Impeached President Trump and his Make America Great Again For Dimwits show is symptomatic of this stage in America's decline. Don't hold your breath though folks ….. this will take awhile but ….. it will come to pass. America has already sown the seeds of her own demise. Under Impeached President Trump it has reached the dubious plateau of spending about a trillion dollars per year more than she takes in. Contrary to what Obese Donald tells us (or avoids talking about altogether) two plus two still equals four. America will not be conquered by another country but will economically implode and conquer herself. Obese Donald is the perfect candidate for the job. Just look at his lifetime behavior: Ignore any long term good in exchange for short term "prosperity" based upon borrow, borrow, borrow …… bankruptcy.


I understand what you are talking about jimjam. OTOH, I think the USA never faced its real history. A history as bloody and genocidal and oppressive as all the previous nation-states that they tried to not redo in history....but in the end? They are in denial jimjam. The only way humans become better when they are shown the dark side of their histories? Is to renounce their dedication to that way of doing things and start over and make amends and choose a positive mindset. People do learn from their mistakes and they change their habits, thought patterns and choose something better....but they can't live in constant denial and negations about what they did. You got to confront and accept the horrors, the oppressions, the murders, the exploitation and all the baggage that comes with that....and you work through the trauma and the pain of such an appalling history and make different choices. Never again is what people should start talking about.

Start accepting the errors and the falsehoods and take responsibility for all the ugly history in the USA. Because it is UGLY in the extreme. Killing natives, enslaving Africans, paying immigrants nothing, exploiting poor immigrants, allowing class differences to get worse and worse, corrupting everyone with love and worship of money and gold above all other values, consumption, climate change, polluting, being wasteful, fomenting ignorance, abusing power, using violence and death as a solution to conflict, etc.

Once you accept the huge burden of the enormity of the amount of the offenses and the betrayal of a radical republic? You can actually change for real and not just play lip service and get something done to rectify the ship. If you fail to accept that horror as what it is? You live in la la land...denial and you don't get anywhere. That is where all the other human empires in human history did....they never accepted the failures and the horrors and confronted them and faced them full on and changed profoundly to be able to make something better for all of us humans for the next generation.

And they fell off the power seat and others filled the vacuum.

I see human history as a series of opportunities for change. That is what crisis is in Mandarin Chinese.....danger/opportunity. Because crisis for them is about facing the danger and then seizing an opportunity for change.

I have hope that the human race will eventually let go of what the Greeks' identified as 'hubris' or pride. A very difficult quality that leads to self destruction. I think we will learn our lessons and change. Who knows how long it takes or how many failures have to happen first jimjam? But it will happen.

As a Puerto Rican though? And pro independence? The fall of the American Empire is a good thing for me. It means a weakening of the chains of the master.....and an eventual opportunity to be out of the grip of things.

If it never happens? Still.....they created their own karma. And frankly? That is a universal law that in order for a person or a society or a government to grow and learn and evolve and advance? They got to lose that which they covet. They covet things that are false and useless....the only way for them to let it go is to be in deep suffering and lose.

It is a teacher. And it is necessary. The USA needs that now...they are a danger to the rest of humanity with their bullshit at this point.
#15061800
Rancid wrote:Calling TBI a headache and not a big deal sounds intentional to me.


You misunderstood.

Do you think Trump lied when he said there were no injuries. TBI quite often don't manifest themselves immediately. Early on, it my well have seemed as though there were no injuries.

Do you think Trump knew there were, in fact, injuries but chose to lie about it and state otherwise?
#15061804
Patrickov wrote:No. What I have said is more or less confined to some Hongkongers and Taiwanese.

Tackling China will mean changing the people too -- they need to learn sensitivity and responsibility, under a more sensible and responsible administration -- in some sense the Chinese administration had been incompetent for decades if not centuries. This can be tough work that may span another century.


You think the Americans don't need to learn sensitivity and responsibility as well? Lol. They do. In fact the definition of a good government is that it is filled with sensitive and responsible and honest civil servants. Who don't cave in to corruption and have a sound sense of their goals and policies for the good of not only their own nation but for other nations that they interact with.

The issue is that many of these greedy awful people never want to serve in that way...they prefer the bad way of doing things.
#15061807
Indy wrote:
You misunderstood.

Do you think Trump lied when he said there were no injuries. TBI quite often don't manifest themselves immediately. Early on, it my well have seemed as though there were no injuries.

Do you think Trump knew there were, in fact, injuries but chose to lie about it and state otherwise?


Possible, possibly not. Either way, he shouldn't have jumped to the "it's all good, no problems" claim.
#15061810
Indy wrote:How so?


Politicians in developing countries all "play the grey" between the laws when it comes to how they govern. Technically, their behaviors are legal, but not in the interests of the people in their respective countries. It allows them to do things like reward their buddies and other business elites, personally benefit, etc. etc. They often act legally, but unethically (or go against the spirit of laws but not actually break them). Often the excuse is "well... it's legal!" This type of behavior is insidious and breeds more of this bad behavior. This is a common mode of operation across Latin America, India, and all sorts of other developing nations. The strength of the institutions in the US has always been that the spirit of the laws have been respected (mostly), not that the laws themselves are respected.

This concept has been discussed a lot on these forums before.

The point about it being ironic is that Trump/Trump types will often say he's going to prevent the US from turning into Mexico by say... building the wall. The reality is, his behavior will turn the US into Mexico over the longer term. No need to import Mexicans. If the standard is now "a long as it's technically not illegal, it's ok". Then over the long term, the US will turn into Mexico. BTW, that's fine by me.
#15061816
Indy wrote:You misunderstood.

Do you think Trump lied when he said there were no injuries. TBI quite often don't manifest themselves immediately. Early on, it my well have seemed as though there were no injuries.

Do you think Trump knew there were, in fact, injuries but chose to lie about it and state otherwise?

Yes. His comments were after the publication of the TBI injuries. Trump said some guys got headaches.
#15061823
Rancid wrote:Politicians in developing countries all "play the grey" between the laws when it comes to how they govern. Technically, their behaviors are legal, but not in the interests of the people in their respective countries. It allows them to do things like reward their buddies and other business elites, personally benefit, etc. etc. They often act legally, but unethically (or go against the spirit of laws but not actually break them). Often the excuse is "well... it's legal!" This type of behavior is insidious and breeds more of this bad behavior. This is a common mode of operation across Latin America, India, and all sorts of other developing nations. The strength of the institutions in the US has always been that the spirit of the laws have been respected (mostly), not that the laws themselves are respected.

This concept has been discussed a lot on these forums before.

The point about it being ironic is that Trump/Trump types will often say he's going to prevent the US from turning into Mexico by say... building the wall. The reality is, his behavior will turn the US into Mexico over the longer term. No need to import Mexicans. If the standard is now "a long as it's technically not illegal, it's ok". Then over the long term, the US will turn into Mexico. BTW, that's fine by me.


Mexico became how it became due to its history. Just as the USA became what it became due to its history.

I liken the USA/Mexico situation to this little vignette Rancid:

A Mexican guy asked me once a few weeks ago after I was stopped by a cop and had to pay $400 Mexican pesos to avoid some trumped up claim that was making an illegal turn (we both knew it was not illegal), but the guy knew I was an out of towner because I am driving a car with plates from Veracruz and not Yucatan and he thought he could make some money pressuring me. I had to cave because I got to wait for immigration papers from the Mexican gov't before going through a very labor intensive process of changing the plates into my name. The Mexican guy asks me, "We are fucked. Corruption everywhere and we wonder why no one follows the rules in the benefit of all. Not like the USA where the government does things without corruption." I answered him, "No, you are wrong. The Mexican government has good laws, but the law enforcement officials get paid extremely low wages, and they are on the graft....but they ask for small bribes like $5 or $10 dollars, while in the USA traffic violations like street sweeping, towing, expired meters in city street violations, can cost you $100, $250 and up and if your car is impounded and towed and you don't have the required $850 and up required to spring the car out of impound in 30 days they sell it off and pocket the money and you lose all rights to the vehicle." He was surprised...and said, "You mean Americans make the shakedown LEGAL? They make being on the take on the side of the law?"Yes, I replied. Their answer to a need for money is to raise fees, taxes and so on and the act of overcharging you for something is LEGAL. They are protected with their behavior.

What system has the advantage? Both compromise to get something that is dysfunctional to be functional. One uses bribes and the other uses coercion from the state to boost revenues. Revenues that favor people who have special connections to those in power.
By Rich
#15061824
Tainari88 wrote:Start accepting the errors and the falsehoods and take responsibility for all the ugly history in the USA. Because it is UGLY in the extreme. Killing natives, enslaving Africans,

Its a beautiful history. Natives killed natives. Muslims enslaved Africans. Africans enslaved Africans. What's your big beef with White people doing it? White people were just better at it. The only thing that stopped a tribe of American Indians killing people from other tribes was killing them. The only way to stop an African tribe enslaving its African tribal neighbours was to kill or enslave them.

We White people didn't lose. With the exception of Haiti, We White people freed the slaves out of the goodness of our own hearts. We didn't have to. We made peace with the Native Americans and let them keep their Reservations out of the goodness of our own hearts. They didn't force us to do that. We had a depth of compassion that was just beyond the understanding of traditional native American and African cultures.
#15061827
Rich wrote:Its a beautiful history. Natives killed natives. Muslims enslaved Africans. Africans enslaved Africans. What's your big beef with White people doing it? White people were just better at it. The only thing that stopped a tribe of American Indians killing people from other tribes was killing them. The only way to stop an African tribe enslaving its African tribal neighbours was to kill or enslave them.

We White people didn't lose. With the exception of Haiti, We White people freed the slaves out of the goodness of our own hearts. We didn't have to. We made peace with the Native Americans and let them keep their Reservations out of the goodness of our own hearts. They didn't force us to do that. We had a depth of compassion that was just beyond the understanding of traditional native American and African cultures.


Lol. You are such an interesting man! You know Rafael Correa the president of Ecuador was confronted by some 'white European right wingers' who gave him a similar spin on history. They would spout how Africans enslaved Africans and how the white people were the light of civilization. Europe Correa stated in Spanish is the history of the knife. Violence. Violence against each other to colonize the Americas and create false borders so that the capitalists from Lloyd's of London or the bankers in Holland or the Netherlands could expand. Finland is invaded by whites from other European nations. Germans who are whites bomb other whites who occupy England etc. All for what? The solidarity of the white race as one in harmony? The Irish who loved the English masters and never had any troubles because after all? We are all brothers of the Celtic, Anglo-Saxon whitey persuasion and never use killing and war to subjugate each other?

Are the Turkish people white? The Persian Iranian Mesopotamian Empire white? Conquered by another white invading army of Alexander the Great? Lol.

No, Correa was right. The Europeans are not loyal to some mythical white race that are all living in harmony. They are a reflection of the flaws of humanity. Greed, imperial arrogance, bloody violence to control territory. Are other human beings equally fallible? Yes. Why? Because we are all one species living with our own internal contradictions. All of us. The Europeans developed justifications for their barbarism against other races by dehumanizing them and painting themselves as more perfect, better, above the fray. They are not Rich. They are arrogant sons of bitches like most of humanity is....and the few that dare to have different values and a different philosophy than some form of industrialized capitalism are just primitives....but the primitives and not these glorious history of whiteness special ones, are the ones who claim to know better, they got the TRUTH, but don't change what is wrong. They have a right to the power because they are the morally superior. No, they are not Rich. Though you think they are. They are not.

I will let you draw your own conclusions about that. :lol: :p
#15061837
Tainari88 wrote:Mexico became how it became due to its history. Just as the USA became what it became due to its history.

I liken the USA/Mexico situation to this little vignette Rancid:

A Mexican guy asked me once a few weeks ago after I was stopped by a cop and had to pay $400 Mexican pesos to avoid some trumped up claim that was making an illegal turn (we both knew it was not illegal), but the guy knew I was an out of towner because I am driving a car with plates from Veracruz and not Yucatan and he thought he could make some money pressuring me. I had to cave because I got to wait for immigration papers from the Mexican gov't before going through a very labor intensive process of changing the plates into my name. The Mexican guy asks me, "We are fucked. Corruption everywhere and we wonder why no one follows the rules in the benefit of all. Not like the USA where the government does things without corruption." I answered him, "No, you are wrong. The Mexican government has good laws, but the law enforcement officials get paid extremely low wages, and they are on the graft....but they ask for small bribes like $5 or $10 dollars, while in the USA traffic violations like street sweeping, towing, expired meters in city street violations, can cost you $100, $250 and up and if your car is impounded and towed and you don't have the required $850 and up required to spring the car out of impound in 30 days they sell it off and pocket the money and you lose all rights to the vehicle." He was surprised...and said, "You mean Americans make the shakedown LEGAL? They make being on the take on the side of the law?"Yes, I replied. Their answer to a need for money is to raise fees, taxes and so on and the act of overcharging you for something is LEGAL. They are protected with their behavior.

What system has the advantage? Both compromise to get something that is dysfunctional to be functional. One uses bribes and the other uses coercion from the state to boost revenues. Revenues that favor people who have special connections to those in power.



There's certainly a valid point in here.

That said, I think the American shakedown is easier/nicer for me personally. I can avoid those crazy charges by simply not parking in places I shouldn't. On the off chance I'm hit with a $200 charge, well... I can afford it no problem. It's less stressful to not have to worry about that random police officer on the corner that decides to stop me to take $20 from me when I'm make a left turn.

There's more central control over the racket in the US model versus the Mexican model.
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