UK Grooming Gangs - girls raped and sold for sex - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15062008
Donna wrote:Mistreating minorities? That pretty much sounds like literally everyone through out human history.

What nonsense. Muslims in the UK and most other advanced European countries are treated with kid gloves, even when they are vicious criminals. In the USA they are viewed with suspicion since 9/11, but are not singled out for special persecution. In no advanced Western society are they mistreated with impunity as non-Muslims routinely are in Muslim-ruled countries.
#15062014
Truth To Power wrote:What nonsense. Muslims in the UK and most other advanced European countries are treated with kid gloves, even when they are vicious criminals.


Incorrect. They are treated as every other British or European citizen or permanent resident according to the rule of the law. This particularly angers racists who will never be sufficiently satisfied unless Muslims in their country are denied their rights.
#15062022
@Donna
Considering that these types actions and gangs also exist in many countries here in the middle east, and that the UK and Europe suppose to be countries where there is a rule of law, then yes, Muslims in the UK are being treated with kids' gloves.

It's not racism, it just shitty culture that grew out of the new hardline preachers in the mosque starting in the late 60s and European authorities being afraid to be called racist if they actually dealt with it and applied the law on everyone.

Noting that people who say it's racism if the government dealt with these scum as it's supposed to be are the main and central problem across the EU and the UK in this specific case.

Heck, Belarus with all its problems and internal contest of power still has the guts to stop any such gangs forming, be they Muslims or native Belarussians.
There is a considerable Arab and Lebanese community in Minsk and its surroundings and we don't see such problems because the government will give you the middle finger if you started bullshiting about it being racist if the government punished people who commit these crimes.
On the other hand, countries like Germany, France, the UK, etc are essentially a free playground for mobs coming from the middle east and yes, even Lebanon, to operate freely in Europe, be they arms dealers, drugs dealers, human traffickers, etc because they all know the governments there wont punish them or will take lighter hand in dealing with them in fear of being called racists.

Heck, Jafar clan, literally in the neighborhood right next to me here in Baalbek, don't sell cocaine and the such here in Lebanon, yet they're very open about running their operations in Europe (Germany and the Netherlands in particular) for a bigger profit.
The Noon clan Ismail branch here was literally destroyed and half of its heads were executed for human trafficking, then they all simply escaped to Europe and are still operating in Europe, mainly in Germany, France, and the UK, and that's how it's been for over a decade now.
European governments will crackdown on human traffickers from eastern Europe, but will never touch ones from the wider middle east because western liberals will call it racism.



EDIT:
And let's be clear, I am a liberal myself, but I won't go as far as defending human traffickers in fear of being called a racist, that's simply the various liberal movements in the west going off rail and diverging far far away from liberal principles.
#15062030
anasawad wrote:@Donna
Considering that these types actions and gangs also exist in many countries here in the middle east, and that the UK and Europe suppose to be countries where there is a rule of law, then yes, Muslims in the UK are being treated with kids' gloves.


They aren't though. They're being subject to the rule of law like everyone else.

Heck, Belarus with all its problems and internal contest of power still has the guts to stop any such gangs forming, be they Muslims or native Belarussians.
There is a considerable Arab and Lebanese community in Minsk and its surroundings and we don't see such problems because the government will give you the middle finger if you started bullshiting about it being racist if the government punished people who commit these crimes.
On the other hand, countries like Germany, France, the UK, etc are essentially a free playground for mobs coming from the middle east and yes, even Lebanon, to operate freely in Europe, be they arms dealers, drugs dealers, human traffickers, etc because they all know the governments there wont punish them or will take lighter hand in dealing with them in fear of being called racists.


Personally I'd rather live in a developed society with rights and rule of law rather than some backwater like Belarus.

European governments will crackdown on human traffickers from eastern Europe, but will never touch ones from the wider middle east because western liberals will call it racism.


The fact that law enforcement in Western countries are confined by the law is not a bad thing.
#15062037
@Donna
They aren't though. They're being subject to the rule of law like everyone else.

If they weren't, they wouldn't still be around and counting thousands of victims rather than being in jail.
They're not exactly operating in deep cover, it's pretty public to the point that everyone knows about it.

Personally I'd rather live in a developed society with rights and rule of law rather than some backwater like Belarus.

You're not living under a rule of law, if you were, this wouldn't be a discussion.
And if you have "rights" and all, then there won't be a discussion and news stories of underage girls and children being subject to sex slavery all while the police just look away because they're afraid of being called racists.

Rights aren't just a word you write on a piece of paper, they have to protected.
What you have in the UK right now is a piece of paper saying you have the right to freedom and another saying you can't own people, but in reality, what you actually have on the ground is optional protection of the first and optional enforcement of the second.

Also, don't try to shift this to a comparison between countries, that would be a strawman, didn't you know?

The fact that law enforcement in Western countries are confined by the law is not a bad thing.

Same as above, there is a law but the enforcement seems to be optional.
Now, sure, the police can't go around shooting people, but that's not the discussion now isn't it, because the police in the UK seems to enforce the law on people if they're white, but somehow just not see crimes happening right in front of them if the person is an Arab or black.
#15062058
@anasawad

You're not living under a rule of law, if you were, this wouldn't be a discussion.


What?

And if you have "rights" and all, then there won't be a discussion and news stories of underage girls and children being subject to sex slavery all while the police just look away because they're afraid of being called racists.


The claim that police (presumably in the UK) did not do their job due to fear of being called racist is pretty dodgy. It has been made into something of an article of faith for Islamophobes, which is why Tommy Robinson managed to keep getting into trouble over it. He just couldn't understand that the system was dealing with an issue according to its legal traditions and procedures and that it was actually him who was behaving inappropriately.


Same as above, there is a law but the enforcement seems to be optional.


No. Everyone has rights. Police in countries that uphold rule of law generally don't move in on criminals unless they can build a case that can withstand scrutiny from the legal system. If police aren't moving in on traffickers, it's probably because the case is legally weak, not because they're afraid of being called names.

Now, sure, the police can't go around shooting people, but that's not the discussion now isn't it, because the police in the UK seems to enforce the law on people if they're white, but somehow just not see crimes happening right in front of them if the person is an Arab or black.


Not buying it. All of the data on UK policing and bias suggests the opposite, that people of colour are disproportionately targeted by police.
#15062075
@Donna
The claim that police (presumably in the UK) did not do their job due to fear of being called racist is pretty dodgy. It has been made into something of an article of faith for Islamophobes, which is why Tommy Robinson managed to keep getting into trouble over it. He just couldn't understand that the system was dealing with an issue according to its legal traditions and procedures and that it was actually him who was behaving inappropriately.

-Well, if they didn't have the facts and realities on the ground proving their claims on the topic, they wont be able to last so long now would they.
Not everything can be attributed to racism.
- Again, if the system was being applied as you said, it wouldn't have lasted so long.
- And finally, not everything can be attributed to Islamophobia because those groups and gangs are merely an extension to the ones we have here in the region, and people here, i.e. Muslims, also hate them and fight them.


No. Everyone has rights.

Rights mean nothing if they're not protected, and as is clearly obvious, they're not in this case.

Police in countries that uphold rule of law generally don't move in on criminals unless they can build a case that can withstand scrutiny from the legal system.

There are tons of evidence already, it's literally being done in public.
There are thousands of victims to the point where some of them are even branded, how much evidence do you need to atleast start arresting people or having a trial?

What now, you're going to start dealing with these types of crimes like in courts in general in Pakistan under Jennah where a rape case can only be proven by 3 male witnesses?

There are more than enough evidence to atleast start trials and put the victims under protection.
Instead in the UK the victims of human trafficking seems to be prosecuted and arrested more than the traffickers themselves.

If police aren't moving in on traffickers, it's probably because the case is legally weak, not because they're afraid of being called names.



A leaked report produced by the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) has upheld a complaint made by a father whose daughter had been missing for a week. He said a police officer told him that Rotherham “would erupt” if it came out that Asian men were habitually having sex with underage white girls.

It states that the South Yorkshire police were scared to take action against a group of Asian men who were sexually abusing a young girl for fear of triggering unrest in the Asian community and being branded racist. Instead, they did little to disrupt the gang and safeguard the vulnerable victim and other young girls, even though they knew they were being subjected to horrendous sexual abuse.

In 2011 Jack Straw, the former home secretary, suggested there was a cultural element to the then new phenomenon of “grooming gangs” and suggesting some men of Pakistani origin see white girls as “easy meat”. The former Blackburn Labour MP spoke out after two Asian men who abused girls in Derby were given indeterminate jail terms. At the time, he was quickly shouted down and labelled a racist. It was even suggested that his comments were an attempt to influence a pending Oldham by-election.


Review after review has found that there is a tendency by almost all protection agencies to to essentially leave these vulnerable girls to suffer and let the criminals continue their offending. One of the reasons for this is the issue of the ethnicity of the perpetrators.

But in May 2019 it was estimated that there were at least 73 grooming gangs operating in the UK. The inability of South Yorkshire Police and other forces to act professionally and speak openly and plainly about the ethnicity of on-street child abusers is a significant factor in why these horrific offences have gone undetected for so long and it remains a significant factor today.

http://theconversation.com/asian-groomi ... use-130099

an Asian grooming gang was free to roam the streets and abuse young girls because police officers were told to “find other ethnicities” to investigate, a detective has claimed.

Following a two-year inquiry, commissioned by Greater Manchester mayor Andy Burnham, into the historic failings of police and social workers, a report was published today which concluded that vulnerable girls in care were groomed and abused in "plain sight".

The report found multiple failings at the hands of GMP, including how fears over race relations appear to have played a part in senior police thinking when tackling grooming gangs comprised of predominantly Asian men.

It quotes him as saying: "What had a massive input was the offending target group were predominantly Asian males and we were told to try and get other ethnicities."

etc
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/0 ... sic_planit


Not buying it

You not buying it is irrelevant, the facts on the ground are, and the facts don't support your argument.

All of the data on UK policing and bias suggests the opposite, that people of colour are disproportionately targeted by police.

-Funny enough I did look at the police data in a previous discussion here around a month ago, and no not really, as far as I recall, the biggest group targeted by number and portion was whites, not Black or "Asian".
You can actually look up the crown's prosecutor annual report and in all the stats relating to race whites will be the main group targetted throughout the past decade.

- [Trigger warning] Regarding actual crime, yea, it is expected that Migrant communities of middle eastern and African origins will have higher crime rates, for many of the same reasons that the black communities in the US have a high violent crime rates. Poor communities with weak social structures makes it easy for gangs and mobs to take hold in them and thus higher rates of violence.

-Also, when it comes to Middle Eastern communities, especially the religious ones, sexual crimes against white girls are expected to be higher for the simple reason that they consider them to be whores and deserving of being raped and abused.
I know that not from reading some European right-wing report, but because I know that this mentality is widespread in some countries here, especially in Egypt and, to some extent, Jordan; As such, when those guys migrate to Europe, that mentality doesn't just go away, it becomes even more dangerous because the number of girls wearing un-Islamic clothes is way higher than they could find in their countries of origin.
These problems are so big and major in Egypt for example to the point that it makes the headlines almost constantly (i.e. sexual harassments, grooming gangs, sexual assault endemics, gang rapes, etc)
Just the other day there was the story of a grooming gang in al-Mansoura went viral after they attacked a girl and tried to strip her and rape her all while calling her a whore because her jeans was too tight apparently, she managed to escape, (it happened a couple of weeks ago and the vids of it are all over the place) but in general, if you just changed the names, locations, and victim and offender info of the case and published it in English, it would be indistinguishable from the stories about those gangs in the UK or the mass rapes and sexual assaults in Germany, etc. Because it's the same mentality and, in many cases, it's even the same gangs.

European and western liberals, in general, can keep denying all they want, including yourself, but in reality these things happen in migrant communities of which the exact same types of crimes and gangs also occur in their countries of origin. The difference between liberals in the middle east and Europe is the liberals here are fighting against these things, not covering it up.
#15062082
anasawad wrote:@Donna

-Well, if they didn't have the facts and realities on the ground proving their claims on the topic, they wont be able to last so long now would they.


Sounds like you're begging the question.

- And finally, not everything can be attributed to Islamophobia because those groups and gangs are merely an extension to the ones we have here in the region, and people here, i.e. Muslims, also hate them and fight them.


It's simply a fact that Islamophobes exploit high profile crimes committed by Muslims in a way that is designed to malign the Muslim community as a whole.


There are tons of evidence already, it's literally being done in public.
There are thousands of victims to the point where some of them are even branded, how much evidence do you need to atleast start arresting people or having a trial?


Not sure what you're referring to, there have been trials and multiple men have been given very lengthy prison sentences.


You not buying it is irrelevant, the facts on the ground are, and the facts don't support your argument.


Out of curiosity, what is my argument?


-Funny enough I did look at the police data in a previous discussion here around a month ago, and no not really, as far as I recall, the biggest group targeted by number and portion was whites, not Black or "Asian".


I have a bit of difficulty believing that.

You can actually look up the crown's prosecutor annual report and in all the stats relating to race whites will be the main group targetted [sic] throughout the past decade.


Targeted disproportionately? Doubt it.

- [Trigger warning] Regarding actual crime, yea, it is expected that Migrant communities of middle eastern and African origins will have higher crime rates, for many of the same reasons that the black communities in the US have a high violent crime rates. Poor communities with weak social structures makes it easy for gangs and mobs to take hold in them and thus higher rates of violence.


I agree, which is why racist discourse about Muslim culture or the Islamic faith being a causative factor in criminality is hugely problematic. As Atlantis once said, it undermines the social fabric.



European and western liberals, in general, can keep denying all they want, including yourself, but in reality these things happen in migrant communities of which the exact same types of crimes and gangs also occur in their countries of origin. The difference between liberals in the middle east and Europe is the liberals here are fighting against these things, not covering it up.


I'd say it's a bit more nuanced than that. The most anti-democratic impulse in the West right now isn't its Muslim minority or even the smaller minority of Islamists within it, but a resurgent far-right.
#15062087
@Donna
Sounds like you're begging the question.

Sounds like the facts regarding these gangs are so public and blatant that people all over the world knows about it.

It's simply a fact that Islamophobes exploit high profile crimes committed by Muslims in a way that is designed to malign the Muslim community as a whole.

That excuse would've worked if these specific crimes aren't a problem and fought against in other countries, mainly Muslim countries, and the whole issue essentially being European countries importing middle eastern problems to their countries.

Not sure what you're referring to, there have been trials and multiple men have been given very lengthy prison sentences.

Not compared to the number of active gangs and number of victims.


Out of curiosity, what is my argument?

In essense, your repeating the claim that this is not a problem specific to the Pakistani and Arab migrant communities, but rather this is a general issue in the UK and only racists are pointing out and focusing on the Muslims involved.

Except that argument fails since these gangs and mentality is an extension to a mentality wide spread here.
Infact, it's so wide spread here in the region that if any of these conservative and right wing figures decided to spend a couple of hours gathering news pieces from the greater middle east, he\she can easily destroy this argument.

I have a bit of difficulty believing that.

Check the crown's prosecutor annual reports for 2015-2018, those are the ones I looked up and read when we were discussing censorship.


Targeted disproportionately? Doubt it.

Considering that the police actively avoids arresting or punishing black or asian people, then the regular enforcement on whites would indeed be considered targeting disproportionately in comparison to other groups.

I agree, which is why racist discourse about Muslim culture or the Islamic faith being a causative factor in criminality is hugely problematic.

Not really, when it comes to Muslim communities and sexual crimes, the right wing in Europe is correct.
You can easily check the endless list of Fatwas by the founders of the Muslim brotherhood and the Deobandi school of thought to know why sexual crimes are common in Muslim communities, and why they target non-Muslim girls specifically.


The most anti-democratic impulse in the West right now isn't its Muslim minority or even the smaller minority of Islamists within it, but a resurgent far-right.

The far right and anti-democratic groups wont be rising if the people didn't see the systematic problems in their communities and the constant failure in dealing with them.

For example, I only seen one discussion with tommy robinson with Gad Saad, and he seemed to occasionally check social and local news in the middle east; If he's anti-democratic, then it wouldn't be far off to assume that his political tendencies are guided by him seeing systemic problems in the middle east being imported into his country and specifically in the Muslim communities.
The same for Sargon of Akkad who has repeatedly shown that he indeed does follow news and the situation in the middle east, not only sticking to the headlines but going far into even discussing the state of affairs with people and experts from the middle east.


You're the one, infact, over simplifying the issue by sticking it to racism.
Racism wouldn't be spreading if it wasn't for these obvious problems, and the right wouldn't be rising if the wider population isn't actively being affected by them. You're complaining about the aclaimed racism of the right and conservatives when it's your failure and active denial of the problems that is fueling their resurgance.
#15062090
@anasawad

You're the one, infact, over simplifying the issue by sticking it to racism.
Racism wouldn't be spreading if it wasn't for these obvious problems, and the right wouldn't be rising if the wider population isn't actively being affected by them. You're complaining about the aclaimed racism of the right and conservatives when it's your failure and active denial of the problems that is fueling their resurgance.


I don't believe shifting to Overton window further to the far-right is a good way of fighting racism. And I'm not sure how the trafficking gangs are anyone's fault but the perpetrators themselves.
#15062092
@Donna
I don't believe shifting to Overton window further to the far-right is a good way of fighting racism.

It's not, it will increase racism primarily because people see these crimes and start developing fear, anger, and hatred towards the communities producing them.

The far-right is simply riding the wave that your denial created.

And I'm not sure how the trafficking gangs are anyone's fault but the perpetrators themselves.

The perpetrators are guilty for sure, but the people in governance responsible for solving these problems are also to blame for allowing it to continue this far, and the people actively fighting to prevent a solution are also to blame.

When the police are not taking action in fear of being called racist and having to deal with a whole bunch of problems resulting from that, we both know who created that environment don't we.

The left, in this specific case, though not participating in the crime, is facilitating them and actively creating obstacles for solving them.
Noting that if the far left and liberals in charge decided to take on the issue, then it wont be used against them.
#15062096
anasawad wrote:@Donna

It's not, it will increase racism primarily because people see these crimes and start developing fear, anger, and hatred towards the communities producing them.

The far-right is simply riding the wave that your denial created.


It's not "denial" though, it's literally just the refusal of democratic societies to abdicate the rule of law for one particular social problem. The fact that a lot of people these days do not understand how democratic institutions work and want a special tier of criminal justice for certain minority groups is frightening and is an even bigger problem than the trafficking gangs themselves.


The perpetrators are guilty for sure, but the people in governance responsible for solving these problems are also to blame for allowing it to continue this far, and the people actively fighting to prevent a solution are also to blame.


So basically unless you're advocating for the displacement or marginalization of Western Muslim communities, you're somehow complicit in the "denial". That's absurd.
#15062097
@Donna
it's literally just the refusal of democratic societies to abdicate the rule of law for one particular social problem.

As shown above, it's not abdicating the rule of law, it's simply the demand to enforce the law following the republican, democratic, and liberal principle of equality of all people under the law.


The fact that a lot of people these days do not understand how democratic institutions work and want a special tier of criminal justice for certain minority groups is frightening and is an even bigger problem than the trafficking gangs themselves.

And if the law as written is enforced, then people won't start demanding a special solution for this issue.
Perhaps out of misperception or lack of understanding, but the result remains the same.

So basically unless you're advocating for the displacement or marginalization of Western Muslim communities, you're somehow complicit in the "denial". That's absurd.

No, that would be another strawman, I'm advocating for the principle of equality under the law for all people, which includes the law being enforced on everyone equally without any excuses.

If the police applied the law equally on everyone without any special consideration for anyone or anything, then we wont be having this discussion since human traffickers and grooming gangs would all be in jail irregardless of them being white, black, Asian, etc or Christian, Muslims, etc.
The fact that the police take note of special considerations and sensitivities and as such do not enforce the law is creating this problem with these gangs spread all over the place. If they didn't do that, then these gangs wouldn't be roaming freely, the right can't use this failure of the left as an excuse, racism wouldn't be on the rise against Muslims, and the Muslim community in the UK and the rest of Europe wouldn't be heading towards a period of hardship and discrimination due to the rise of the right wing since not only the right wouldn't rise in popularity but the racism fueling it wouldn't exist to begin with outside of some fringe groups.

Liberals in the UK in this case, by their denial of the problem for many years have allowed the problem to grow and spread and thus unintentionally pointed the focus towards the Muslim communities in the UK.
This is literally Liberal and Progressive policy and actions backfiring due to lack of longterm vision and planning on the part of the liberal and progressive movement.
#15062102
anasawad wrote:@Donna

As shown above, it's not abdicating the rule of law, it's simply the demand to enforce the law following the republican, democratic, and liberal principle of equality of all people under the law.


Enforcement of the law must always be balanced with individual rights. That's how it's always been. It's not just a matter of arresting people and charging them, police must also build sound cases supported by evidence against the criminals whose freedom they deny.

With regard to the Rotherham case, several men did go to prison for a very long time as a result. The prosecution of that criminal conspiracy was a success. Similarly, several Afghan men are serving prison sentences in Germany for high profile assaults on women. The system is adequately and sufficiently dealing with it. What is a larger problem, however, is the exploitation of these high profile cases by the far-right racist element (which you seem adamant to ignore).
#15062104
@Donna
Enforcement of the law must always be balanced with individual rights.

What you're doing isn't balancing it with individual rights, but rather with collective or group rights.

It's not just a matter of arresting people and charging them, police must also build sound cases supported by evidence against the criminals whose freedom they deny.

Not only there are more than enough evidence, but to build a full case in general you need the police to investigate.
The police aren't investigating because they're afraid of the consequences of even touching the topic as, yet again, shown previously.


With regard to the Rotherham case, several men did go to prison for a very long time as a result. The prosecution of that criminal conspiracy was a success. Similarly, several Afghan men are serving prison sentences in Germany for high profile assaults on women.

Considering there are atleast 73 active gangs, then no, those numbers aren't nearly sufficient.



The system is adequately and sufficiently dealing with it.

atleast 73 active gangs


What is a larger problem, however, is the exploitation of these high profile cases by the far-right racist element (which you seem adamant to ignore).

Considering that I have just spent an entire page addressing this, not exactly ignoring it, but rather you ignoring my entire posts and responding to one snippet out of it.
All you have to do is simply reading my above posts, all addressed.



EDIT:
The far right and anti-democratic groups wont be rising if the people didn't see the systematic problems in their communities and the constant failure in dealing with them.

For example, I only seen one discussion with tommy robinson with Gad Saad, and he seemed to occasionally check social and local news in the middle east; If he's anti-democratic, then it wouldn't be far off to assume that his political tendencies are guided by him seeing systemic problems in the middle east being imported into his country and specifically in the Muslim communities.
The same for Sargon of Akkad who has repeatedly shown that he indeed does follow news and the situation in the middle east, not only sticking to the headlines but going far into even discussing the state of affairs with people and experts from the middle east.

It's not, it will increase racism primarily because people see these crimes and start developing fear, anger, and hatred towards the communities producing them.

The far-right is simply riding the wave that your denial created.

If the police applied the law equally on everyone without any special consideration for anyone or anything, then we wont be having this discussion since human traffickers and grooming gangs would all be in jail irregardless of them being white, black, Asian, etc or Christian, Muslims, etc.
The fact that the police take note of special considerations and sensitivities and as such do not enforce the law is creating this problem with these gangs spread all over the place. If they didn't do that, then these gangs wouldn't be roaming freely, the right can't use this failure of the left as an excuse, racism wouldn't be on the rise against Muslims, and the Muslim community in the UK and the rest of Europe wouldn't be heading towards a period of hardship and discrimination due to the rise of the right wing since not only the right wouldn't rise in popularity but the racism fueling it wouldn't exist to begin with outside of some fringe groups.
#15062111
anasawad wrote:@Donna

What you're doing isn't balancing it with individual rights, but rather with collective or group rights.


Disagree.




Considering there are atleast 73 active gangs, then no, those numbers aren't nearly sufficient.


What is your point? A lot of different categories of crime have been on an upsurge in recent decades due to economic globalization. There has been an exponential growth of the drug and human trafficking trade around the entire planet. The UK isn't some exception just because it has a Muslim minority demographic.

Considering that I have just spent an entire page addressing this, not exactly ignoring it, but rather you ignoring my entire posts and responding to one snippet out of it.
All you have to do is simply reading my above posts, all addressed.


I'd prefer to keep my discussions here conversational and rhetorical-logical, as this is what I'm used to on social media. I believe I'm still responding in good faith even if I don't respond tit-for-tat to every paragraph you write. I am taking you seriously and I am integrating your arguments into mine, even if I continue to disagree. I am a good faith actor.
#15062112
@Donna
Disagree.

The fact that the discussion is guided on Muslims in general rather than the gangs themselves and that it's addressed by the left as oppression against Muslims and racism is evidence of it being group rights not individual rights.

A lot of different categories of crime have been on an upsurge in recent decades due to economic globalization

Crime rates are actually going down across the developed world, only rising in specific categories.

There has been an exponential growth of the drug and human trafficking trade around the entire planet.

Human trafficking especially has been dropping in size and rate throughout the past few decades.

The UK isn't some exception just because it has a Muslim minority demographic.

The only exception in this case is that human trafficking is dropping in general all while shown clear growth in the middle east since the 70s (The period where various fascists and absolute rulers started taking over) and now this problem is being exported to Europe.


I'd prefer to keep my discussions here conversational and rhetorical-logical, as this is what I'm used to on social media. I believe I'm still responding in good faith even if I don't respond tit-for-tat to every paragraph you write. I am taking you seriously and I am integrating your arguments in mine, even if I continue to disagree. I am a good faith actor.

Very well, then this would be my main idea in this discussion:

If the police applied the law equally on everyone without any special consideration for anyone or anything, then we wont be having this discussion since human traffickers and grooming gangs would all be in jail irregardless of them being white, black, Asian, etc or Christian, Muslims, etc.
The fact that the police take note of special considerations and sensitivities and as such do not enforce the law is creating this problem with these gangs spread all over the place. If they didn't do that, then these gangs wouldn't be roaming freely, the right can't use this failure of the left as an excuse, racism wouldn't be on the rise against Muslims, and the Muslim community in the UK and the rest of Europe wouldn't be heading towards a period of hardship and discrimination due to the rise of the right wing since not only the right wouldn't rise in popularity but the racism fueling it wouldn't exist to begin with outside of some fringe groups.

The covering and ignoring of these gangs and crimes have allowed it to grow and spread all over with many of the gangs in the middle east (like the Noon clan) branching out and beginning to operate in Europe, as such allowing the problem to grow enough to grab and direct attention towards the Muslim community which, in turn, results in division and subsequent racism, which, also in turn, helps the right wing actors to grow and gain popularity by riding the wave.
#15062113
anasawad wrote:@Donna

The fact that the discussion is guided on Muslims in general rather than the gangs themselves and that it's addressed by the left as oppression against Muslims and racism is evidence of it being group rights not individual rights.


Individual rights exist as a concrete legal concept. I've never heard of the term "group rights" before and I'm not sure what you mean by it.


Crime rates are actually going down across the developed world, only rising in specific categories.


If I recall the data suggests a massive drop in crime rate in the 1990's and 2000's with a more recent uptick trend in the 2010's.


The covering and ignoring of these gangs and crimes have allowed it to grow and spread all over with many of the gangs in the middle east (like the Noon clan) branching out and beginning to operate in Europe, as such allowing the problem to grow enough to grab and direct attention towards the Muslim community which, in turn, results in division and subsequent racism, which, also in turn, helps the right wing actors to grow and gain popularity by riding the wave.


Regardless of whether or not this is true, do you agree the growth of the far-right is undesirable? Do you believe Western Muslims have a right to practice their faith as private citizens?

My position is basically that law enforcement in the developed world is dealing with the problem in the best way that they can. I don't buy into the conspiracy theory that police in multiple Western nations are turning a blind eye to sex trafficking in order to avoid being called racist. They show utter seriousness and precision when it comes to dealing with Islamist terrorism (look at the tactical response of the UK and French police to terrorist attacks in 2005 and 2015), often doing so amid accusations of racial profiling and insensitivity to the Muslim community, yet they're going to back down from busting sex traffickers out of political correctness? The narrative you're trying to push here just doesn't make any sense.
#15062125
@Donna
Individual rights exist as a concrete legal concept. I've never heard of the term "group rights" before and I'm not sure what you mean by it.

The position on the left is that of collective or group rights, i.e. instead of taking these actions on an individual level and going after the perpetrators, they're instead turned into a discussion on Muslims in the UK as a whole or as a collective to put it better and thus blocking the attempts to go after these gangs.

If I recall the data suggests a massive drop in crime rate in the 1990's and 2000's with a more recent uptick trend in the 2010's.

The increase in Europe specifically was due to most criminals in the middle east, especially those of Egypt, Syria and Libya running to Europe since many of these gangs (or better say mobs) were sponsored by government officials, added to that the massive influx of "refugees" from all over the middle east and Africa who carry such mentality going to Europe.

Very soon you'll start hearing of Lebanese gangs of these sorts since most of those here will escape to Europe once the regime falls apart.


do you agree the growth of the far-right is undesirable?

Undesirable, sure, but the left has to stop paving the way for the right to stop growing.

Do you believe Western Muslims have a right to practice their faith as private citizens?

As long as it stays on an individual level and not trespass into others' rights.
e.g. believing a certain girl is a whore for wearing an unIslamic dress is not justification for raping or assaulting her.

My position is basically that law enforcement in the developed world is dealing with the problem in the best way that they can. I don't buy into the conspiracy theory that police in multiple Western nations are turning a blind eye to sex trafficking in order to avoid being called racist.

Clearly not as seen from the scale and spread of these gangs and the fact that even police officers are coming out and leaking that they didn't take action in fear of accusations of racism or in consideration for special sensitivities in these communities is more than sufficient evidence that the police have indeed been turning a blind eye.

They show utter seriousness and precision when it comes to dealing with Islamist terrorism (look at the tactical response of the UK and French police to terrorist attacks in 2005 and 2015), often doing so amid accusations of racial profiling and insensitivity to the Muslim community, yet they're going to back down from busting sex traffickers out of political correctness? The narrative you're trying to push here just doesn't make any sense.

Terrorism is an entirely different topic and is not dealt with by the same departments in the overall security apparatus.
As said, they are turning a blind eye because of these conceptions as I've shown from the quoted snippets a few posts ago.

For fuck's sake, this is the type of discussion language happening in the government in the UK;

That political correctness is so enshrined that even government officials have to be careful not to say the wrong word or actually specifying which fucking communities they're talking about.
Asian ? Really Asian communities, we all fucking know that it's mainly in Muslim areas and Pakistani areas in general, it's not in the Chinese or Hindu or Vietnamese areas, and the people doing it aren't the Filipinos, yet no one has the guts to say it.

And please don't try to bullshit with me saying that they're not saying it because its inappropriate, I am familiar with this type of avoidance of problems because we've had the exact same thing with Hezbollah here in Lebanon for the past several years where everyone will avoid talking about Hezbollah's militia in the Dahieh because everyone is afraid of it, especially with the Aoun government and using this fear tactic to silence any opposition, and the same type of language and avoidance can seen all over the middle east and it's all due to fear of punishment if one said the wrong thing, and that's the exact thing we're seeing in discussions like these in the UK. Sure, the punishment won't be torture or death, but a political and social suicide, still punishment nonetheless.

With all due respect, but this excusing political correctness from the left bullshit wont work with me, I've lived my entire life either under or around authoritarian regimes and I know one when I see one, and that political correctness is authoritarian and is the cause for the police to turn a blind eye and for officials to tell officers to look away as quoted before, and inevitably is the reason why this problem has been allowed to grow so far.
#15062140
anasawad wrote:@Donna

The position on the left is that of collective or group rights, i.e. instead of taking these actions on an individual level and going after the perpetrators, they're instead turned into a discussion on Muslims in the UK as a whole or as a collective to put it better and thus blocking the attempts to go after these gangs.


I've studied the left's traditions for years and the idea of "group rights" is not something I've ever encountered. Even for something like the civil rights movement in the United States, the legal reforms pertained to the rights of individuals not to be discriminated against. Who are the primary intellectual proponents of "group rights"?


The increase in Europe specifically was due to most criminals in the middle east, especially those of Egypt, Syria and Libya running to Europe since many of these gangs (or better say mobs) were sponsored by government officials, added to that the massive influx of "refugees" from all over the middle east and Africa who carry such mentality going to Europe.


It's pretty dishonest to ignore the fact that Egypt, Syria and Libya underwent revolution and war in the last decade, or that climate change and inequality is displacing significant numbers of people in Africa.

Asian ? Really Asian communities, we all fucking know that it's mainly in Muslim areas and Pakistani areas in general, it's not in the Chinese or Hindu or Vietnamese areas, and the people doing it aren't the Filipinos, yet no one has the guts to say it.


In the UK everyone knows that Asian is a term for South Asian. It's not political correctness, it's just the way the British speak.


Undesirable, sure, but the left has to stop paving the way for the right to stop growing.


The left isn't causing the far-right to grow. Every aggravation of the far-right, whether globalization or immigration, is a mechanism of global capitalism. The left simply refuses to allow minorities to be scapegoated for problems created by wealth inequality. The fascist nationalist cunts need to grow a fucking heart and stop scapegoating innocent people who are just trying to live their lives in peace.
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