Running Sanders Against Trump Would Be an Act of Insanity - Page 5 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15067549
Interesting discussion here with some good points. I have a few thoughts.

1. The argument that Chait's thesis can be safely disregarded because of his past support of the Iraq war and his incorrect predictions about Trump is logically fallacious (ad hominem). Let's judge his ideas based on the merits, not on his past.

2. Agree on the whole that nominating Sanders would be a disaster. Americans are not going to go in for a guy who continues to insist on calling himself a socialist. The man has not even strongly disavowed his past support of state ownership of the means of production (only his surrogates have put out quiet messages to this effect at times). For a guy who insists that he only cares about the issues, this is a weird rhetorical albatross to voluntarily wear.

3. His socialist policies are even more problematic. Americans are wary of things that sound too good to be true (in general). Free college, free healthcare, free leave, etc with no major increase in the tax burden on the middle class sounds too good to be true, and it is in fact. The social democracies of Scandinavia that have these policies while maintaining their democracy are able to do so by paying exorbitant tax rates and having an extremely high cost of living. There is no free lunch. Americans love the idea of medicare for all, right up until the point when you start discussing how you're going to pay for it.

Sanders' team seems to understand how unpopular his policy proposals are more and more as the possibility of his nomination increases. AOC recently remarked that we shouldn't be scared of Bernie's big ideas because they are unlikely to pass through congress. She's right, but it's a pretty bad look for your campaign when you're trying to draw in support by undermining your signature policy idea.

4. The discussion about health on here is not great, guys and gals. This is America; we are all free to decide who to vote for based on any fucking thing we like. Health, and its close correlate, age, are perfectly defensible criteria for judging candidates. Bernie just had a heart attack; it's obviously true that this increases his chances of dying in the next eight years, especially given his age. Joe Biden clearly has trouble maintaining his eloquence over long stretches of time (just watch one of the recent debates). Trump also clearly has difficulties with language at times. I think if we're honest with ourselves, none of these statements are controversial. I agree that we cannot definitively diagnose the president/biden with dementia based on these snippets of information, but it is also okay to take this information into consideration when deciding whom to vote for. Buttigieg, Klobuchar, Warren do not seem to have these problems. It's no accident that they're younger. That doesn't mean that the older candidates must be disqualified, but it is reasonable to count this in their favor.

5. The stuff about Trump fanboys on here is so tiresome. This is a sub plot on every thread on this forum. I propose that we stop having such long fights about this. Let's all recognize that we all have our biases, we all have our principles and try to judge our arguments on the merits without making everything personal. I find it weird how both sides treat each other with such contempt, mostly because it's so self defeating in politics. I didn't vote for Trump, but I'm not going to shit on someone just because they did. I'm going to try to convince them to vote for my candidate. How will I be able to convince them if I belittle them at every turn? The truth is that people have their reasons for voting the way they do. I may disagree, but I'm not going to do any good by shitting on them about their choices.

6. Someone made a point about people who wish the president does not succeed. The same person said he views such people as unamerican, and thus that he will treat them with contempt and prejudice.

There is a grain of truth here, because I agree in general that nobody should wish the country does badly just so their side gets to have power. However, I am making a distinction here between the country and the president. I want the economy to do well, but that doesn't necessessarily mean that I want all of Trump's policies to pass. I also think it's possible for a person to hope that things go badly in the short term because in the long term the country be better for it. Perhaps I'm giving such folks too much benefit of the doubt. As an extreme example, if a president eventually becomes dictator for life, it probably would have been better if the economy had dipped a little bit during his democratically-elected period in order that he be kicked out of office before consolidating his power.

Calling people unamerican for thinking something and saying you will treat them with contempt and prejudice is similar to the self-defeating attitude I outlined above. I would only hope that everyone on here try to give everyone else the benefit of the doubt and have faith that we are all just trying to advocate for what we see as best for the country. I think this attitude is the only way we can resurrect a productive civil discourse.
#15067967
Got to keep the Bernie supporters at bay @Rancid. Nobody wants to give up the chance of having a sellout takeover again.....Trumpet supporters if they lose the election will they commit suicide or will they have to sing a Freddie Mercury tune forever.....

Lol.

I think Bernie if he wins? Got to keep him in good health....call him




Rocket Bernie...spinning into the stratosphere of people paranoid about a Jewish dude from Brooklyn who has been saying that income inequality is a problem....

The SNL skit says it all:

#15067968
Tainari88 wrote:Got to keep the Bernie supporters at bay @Rancid. Nobody wants to give up the chance of having a sellout takeover again.....Trumpet supporters if they lose the election will they commit suicide or will they have to sing a Freddie Mercury tune forever.....


You really think Trump is going to lose? No way in hell. He's getting re-elected, no question.
#15067970
Rancid wrote:You really think Trump is going to lose? No way in hell. He's getting re-elected, no question.


Ay @Rancid do you want to hear that man's tweets at 3am for another four years?

Lol.

I don't. If he wins? The USA is going to be in a recession that will not have a remedy out of it. And there might be a war before 2025 because that man is not going to leave office. He will remain beyond his expiration date. The USA will become a reflection of what they wanted to foist on Latin America all these years with constant coups and interferences. They will be stuck with a power hungry psycho of their own making.

Good luck with that! Hee hee. :lol:
#15068309
Tainari88 wrote:Ay @Rancid do you want to hear that man's tweets at 3am for another four years?

Lol.

I don't. If he wins? The USA is going to be in a recession that will not have a remedy out of it. And there might be a war before 2025 because that man is not going to leave office. He will remain beyond his expiration date. The USA will become a reflection of what they wanted to foist on Latin America all these years with constant coups and interferences. They will be stuck with a power hungry psycho of their own making.

Good luck with that! Hee hee. :lol:

I enjoy that President Trump's tweets can bring out the Democrat's hysteria from their Trump derangement syndrome. One little tweet and it is all day crazy talk on CNN and MSNBC. :lol:
#15068328
Hindsite wrote:I enjoy that President Trump's tweets can bring out the Democrat's hysteria from their Trump derangement syndrome. One little tweet and it is all day crazy talk on CNN and MSNBC. :lol:


I do not think we are professional enough to judge whether they are hysterical, but I will say some of their response has made me hate them more, because they seem talking too much and acting too little.
#15068350
Tainari88 wrote:I know a few on this website. Lol.


Yea, at the same time, I guess it doesn't help to call them dumb, even if they are. :hmm:

One of the reasons UBI would work, is that it would help to appease the dummies among us. This way the rest of us can properly move the world forward why the dummies just futz around.
#15068351
Rancid wrote:Yea, at the same time, I guess it doesn't help to call them dumb, even if they are. :hmm:

One of the reasons UBI would work, is that it would help to appease the dummies among us. This way the rest of us can properly move the world forward why the dummies just futz around.



You are growing increasingly politically savvy my dear @Rancid .
#15068359
shiet i hope bernie wins but i also hope yall buying stock options for when trump wins. stock market going to be lit by 2021. after the coronasars (RIP Chinese frens) hit apples stock i bought a ton of options on digital fruit and they already up again.

today i went out and bought some fine coton pajamas (I can say cotton because im black) on credit because i be living like louie XIV by this time next year

i know you gay Tim Cook but dont fvck this up
#15070885
Rancid wrote:Yea, at the same time, I guess it doesn't help to call them dumb, even if they are. :hmm:

One of the reasons UBI would work, is that it would help to appease the dummies among us. This way the rest of us can properly move the world forward why the dummies just futz around.

Because our media is owned by billionaires, we are all dumb.

Whether Bernie Sanders is really a socialist, whether he is really being opposed by AIPAC or other Jewish gangs, whether his narrative is real or completely fake... none of us knows because we get all this information (about an old political hack who has been in the system for longer than most of us have been alive) from the same media that Bernie and Donald have sat down for brunch with hundreds of times.

Rather than questionning the logic of running this horse against the other horse, we should be questionning the sincerity of all of the well-funded horses' words and narratives.

But media would rather point us in the direction of pointless arguments, like this thread is doing.
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