Too Many White People - Page 8 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Provision of the two UN HDI indicators other than GNP.
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User avatar
By maz
#15069225
Rancid wrote:@Tainari88,

this guy thinks I'm a leftist......


I remember when I first joined this forum I would have labeled you as far right :lol: that's how far I've come!
User avatar
By Rancid
#15069227
maz wrote:I remember when I first joined this forum I would have labeled you as far right :lol:


Yea, that's accurate. I remember I also flirted with Libertarianism for a while. That said, I have shifted more left from those days, but I'd say Sivad has me all wrong, as I still say some pretty right winged shit around here.
Last edited by Rancid on 23 Feb 2020 05:10, edited 1 time in total.
#15069250
Sivad wrote:It's not attention I'm looking for. I started with the forums because I was just looking for decent conversation but as I got to talking with people from these different worldviews I began to realize that not only were they full of shit but the more full of shit they were the more fervent they were in their beliefs. So then I thought maybe I'm just talking to the wrong people so I started talking to more people. But the more I branched out the more I found that everyone I talked to was almost completely full of shit.

So then it became like a game of sorts, I would research these worldviews in depth and assemble the facts and construct rigorous airtight arguments and when I presented them it wouldn't even make a dent in their opinions. Then it became like 'how crazy are these people?' so I started to just have some fun with it and that's when they really got militant and started to really not like me.

Now I'm at a point where I'm like 80% convinced that I'm living in a focktard apocalypse out of some kind of Philip K Dick novel. I keep doing it because part of my mind still won't accept that the world really is just that fantastically fucking bizarre.

Image
#15069281
Rancid wrote:I would amend that statement. I think the government should back up great projects (like electric cars), not great people. The reality about Musk, much like Bloomberg, is that the value of Tesla isn't 100% because of Musk. :)

Now I remember, that's what Solar Cross got all touchy on with me. I was making the point that governments often have a strong hand in technological development. Things like the internet, GPS, fracking, rockets/space tech, and solar power all received government investment when private industry wasn't interested because it couldn't make money on it. FOr some reason, this offended him, and he said I worship the government or something to have effect. :lol:


Actually you got touchy when I showed your contention was based on a false premise. Project on someone else.
User avatar
By Rancid
#15069322
SolarCross wrote:Actually you got touchy when I showed your contention was based on a false premise. Project on someone else.


sure, whatever.... :roll:
#15069331
To go back to UVa, which the topic is about:

Drlee wrote:All of you who have been here for awhile know that I am the first to speak out against racism. I hate it and I believe it is, in all its forms, as close to evidence of ignorance and malice as one can find. SO.

I ask the author of the above (Matrice) to consider this. This is college. What exactly should we expect?

Should we not expect some people to behave in a childish manner? These kids are less than a decade from calling someone "poopy face" and waiving a power ranger at them. These are kids whose hormones are raging and who, generally, do not know what to do about that. They are, at the end of the day, largely the product of their parent's and grandparent's value system and have not learned how make thoughtful choices yet, many of them. Whether that is drawing a penis on a bridge or calling women "hoes" many will bring their immaturity to campus unfiltered by years of education and training even in the absence of wisdom which will come for many much much later.

But Matrice, every day of a person's life is an opportunity to grow and change our values. Values do not spring wholly developed from the envelope along with one's acceptance letter. But do you know what Matrice? Racism is rampant in American. If you think it is bad at UVA you haven't seen anything yet. At least at UVA some people of good will are trying to do something about it. Wait until you hit corporate America. Wait until you bump up agaist the local school board. Wait until you take your black self to a Trump rally. The frozen smiles and disingenuous handshakes will put you in shock. But hey. You will be interviewed by every right wing journalist there.

Matirce. You are worried about "microaggressions". Yeah. That's bad huh. :lol: Let me tell you this from one old white man to a young black man. Do you know why polls show that white people think America is more racist than black people do? It is because it is true and we know it. Nobody hides it from us. I have banned people from my house because they made a racist comment. I have refused to promote people who I have heard making the "white man's club" jokes about minorities or women. I vote for a political party lately that favors a more inclusive agenda. I like to think I am part of the solution. Your advice, if you were older and wiser Matrice would be to admonish the new students to seek out like minded people regardless of color and form alliances. Anger fosters weakness and inappropriate action as often as it feeds strength. Alliances are uplifting, affirming and powerful. When you are old and wise Matrice, you will know what Doctor King knew. That if there is going to be change there has to be lots and lots of people doing it. No man on a horse will work. Just lots and lots of people working together to suppress the object of their collective outrage. So when the new student sees a lot of white people in the multicultural center make sure there is a black person their to register them to vote and to offer to drive them to the polls.

There is no safe place for any of us in life and there never will be. I don't want there to be some artificial shelter on any campus. I want every black and white student to use their righteous indignation for change. And no war was ever won from a bunker.

Martese was not just worried about students, or "microagressions". He pointed out the neo-Nazi march on UVa grounds that happened a few days before he wrote that - not the UVa students, but the invading far-right loons, one of whom went on to murder. His notable interaction with racism was not with young students, but with three white Alcoholic Beverage Control officers who falsely accused him of using a fake ID and assaulted him - he needed stitches. The department eventually gave him a settlement of $250,000.

There does appear to have been a racism problem at UVa, but I'm not sure I'd blame immature students.
User avatar
By Donna
#15069352
Sivad wrote:You don't have any idea what those people think or why they think the things they do. And because you don't know anything about their worldview or how they arrived at it you can't effectively combat it. I can tell David Duke exactly why he's up his own ass because I know which facts he selectively chooses to construct his rickety worldview on and I know where the flaws in his logic are. That's why I don't need to censor speech and engage in all manner of bully tactics like you people rely on, I can outthink the dipshits and show them up for the woefully misguided idiots that they are.


You can out-think white supremacists, great, but you haven't shown that you can out-think a Marxist.
By Sivad
#15069362
Donna wrote:Why not? You always stop responding when discussions get too nuanced.


I stop responding when the discussions get too effin pofo to continue. There's no point in getting into the weeds with people who don't know what they're talking about to begin with. Like when you said "we know for certain that the MHWP wasn't global", that's the retarded end of the discussion for me right there.

pofo is more of a sandbox for working out thoughts and arguments, it's not a place for serious discussion.
#15069363
Sivad wrote:They can only be considered unrealistic in the sense that too many people in Western society know the history and know what the prog fascisti are really about for them to ever fully succeed in establishing their brave new world. But even well short of that the progs can still create a lot of mischief and cause a lot of harm so it's not unrealistic in that sense.


I am not here to talk about your feelings with you.

The way you constantly attack anyone who opposes racism is good support for racism.

———————-

@anasawad

If an accusation of racism were enough to destroy a career, then Trump would never have been president.

He is, so you are wrong.

And there is evidence that he used racism to win:
https://www.cambridge.org/core/services ... ts-div.pdf

And you seem to agree that this woman caused no negative impacts for white people.

And while you bring up all sorts of racist talking points to dismiss the racism that blacks deal with, no one believes you.

If you want to support your racist arguments, bring evidence.
By anasawad
#15069397
@Pants-of-dog
Read the first part of the second page of the article.
The emphasis is mainly on anti-immigration and anti-establishment sentiment, which I already explained why it is the case, multiple times.


And you seem to agree that this woman caused no negative impacts for white people.

1- "White people" are not a collective.
2- No negative impact is needed to determine whether someone is racist or not. She has and have desplayed racial prejudice, as such she's a racist.
A negative impact would result if she followed it with direct discrimination.

And while you bring up all sorts of racist talking points to dismiss the racism that blacks deal with

1- I have not brought any "racist" points, explaining existing problems is not a racist point.
2- Anyone who bother reading what I wrote will know that instead of resorting to an imaginary boogyman like you're doing with racism, I went on to point out the various factors at play that are causing the current situation, and how it is not "racism" that is guiding it.

no one believes you.

Well, considering that the left in the US has been pushing and enforcing policies to fight this acclaimed racism for decades now and the situation is still shit, I would say it's quite obvious for everyone that
1- The problems aren't caused or pushed by racism. Rather it is more complex and nuanced than a simple 1 cause issue.
2- That the majority are already starting to see the deep flaws in the line of reasoning your movement is following and how it has lost grounds.
If your line of reasoning is correct and sound, then you'd not only be able to solve these problems but would've already solved them, and you'll also be atleast winning elections.


If you want to support your racist arguments, bring evidence.

:lol: :lol:
My "racist argument".
First of all, bro, these buzz words don't work with me, you can call me racist, sexist, Nazi, etc all day long and it won't change a thing. You guys have already watered it down so much that it means nothing anymore anyway.
Secondly, you haven't even responded to any of the points I made.
And finally, the erosion of the middle class in the US and the deteriorating conditions for all people, along with the loss of jobs in mass due to automation are known facts that are discussed everywhere.
#15069399
anasawad wrote:@Pants-of-dog
Read the first part of the second page of the article.
The emphasis is mainly on anti-immigration and anti-establishment sentiment, which I already explained why it is the case, multiple times.


Anti-immigration sentiment is often racist.

So you are agreeing that racism helped Trump become POTUS, and that disproves the claim that white people openly expressing racism is a career destroyer.

1- "White people" are not a collective.
2- No negative impact is needed to determine whether someone is racist or not. She has and have desplayed racial prejudice, as such she's a racist.
A negative impact would result if she followed it with direct discrimination.


1- I have not brought any "racist" points, explaining existing problems is not a racist point.
2- Anyone who bother reading what I wrote will know that instead of resorting to an imaginary boogyman like you're doing with racism, I went on to point out the various factors at play that are causing the current situation, and how it is not "racism" that is guiding it.


Well, considering that the left in the US has been pushing and enforcing policies to fight this acclaimed racism for decades now and the situation is still shit, I would say it's quite obvious for everyone that
1- The problems aren't caused or pushed by racism. Rather it is more complex and nuanced than a simple 1 cause issue.
2- That the majority are already starting to see the deep flaws in the line of reasoning your movement is following and how it has lost grounds.
If your line of reasoning is correct and sound, then you'd not only be able to solve these problems but would've already solved them, and you'll also be atleast winning elections.



:lol: :lol:
My "racist argument".
First of all, bro, these buzz words don't work with me, you can call me racist, sexist, Nazi, etc all day long and it won't change a thing. You guys have already watered it down so much that it means nothing anymore anyway.
Secondly, you haven't even responded to any of the points I made.
And finally, the erosion of the middle class in the US and the deteriorating conditions for all people, along with the loss of jobs in mass due to automation are known facts that are discussed everywhere.


I am not discussing the definition of racism.

Now, you do not disagree that this woman’s actions had no negative impacts.

Secondly, if you want to show that racism against black people had no negative impacts (and yes, that is a racist argument) , then provide evidence for that argument.
#15069401
@Pants-of-dog
Anti-immigration sentiment is often racist.

No it's not, infact it, most often, has nothing to do with racism.
Lebanon has anti-immigration tendency at the moment against Syrians and Palestinians, we're the same race.
Belarus has a famous anti-immigration tendency, against other slavs primarily.

So you are agreeing that racism helped Trump become POTUS,

No, I said the emphasis in the article is on anti-immigration and anti-establishment sentiments, meaning >NOT< racism.

that disproves the claim that white people openly expressing racism is a career destroyer.

It doesn't because Trump didn't tap into racism, he tapped into anti-immigration and anti-establishment sentiments, as you yourself provided evidence for.

I am not discussing the definition of racism.

Neither am I, the definition of racism is very clear and simple:
Any and all prejudice or discrimination based on race.
See? Simple.

Now, you do not disagree that this woman’s actions had no negative impacts.

And for the 201 billion times, the impact is separate from the intent.
There doesn't need to be an impact of her words for it to be racist.
How is this hard to understand?

Secondly, if you want to show that racism against black people had no negative impacts

So, basically, you have zero idea what I said or wrote, or simply skipped and didn't read anything. Good to know.

and yes, that is a racist argument

No it's not.
Pointing out why things happen and why a given problem exist is not racist, nor is related to race to begin with.

then provide evidence for that argument.

I need to provide evidence for the fact that the middle class is shrinking and poverty is spreading in the US? A topic that is talked about non-stop in the US and is the main issue in every election in the US currently?

Or evidence for the fact that infrastructure in the US is crumbling and thus the red herring you provided about how black people are the only ones who get, in some occasions, unsafe drinking water because "racism", even when the entire US, especially the flyover states, are affected by these problems and thus suffering from the exact same thing? Also a main issue discussed non-stop in every election?

Or about the international gangs that have infested the US major cities which you're trying to claim Trump is racist for using it as a running point but somehow I need to prove that it exists to begin with? Also an issue that is brought up nonstop in every election to the point that each candidate has to make a plan for it.
#15069404
anasawad wrote:@Pants-of-dog

No it's not, infact it, most often, has nothing to do with racism.
Lebanon has anti-immigration tendency at the moment against Syrians and Palestinians, we're the same race.
Belarus has a famous anti-immigration tendency, against other slavs primarily.


No, I said the emphasis in the article is on anti-immigration and anti-establishment sentiments, meaning >NOT< racism.


It doesn't because Trump didn't tap into racism, he tapped into anti-immigration and anti-establishment sentiments, as you yourself provided evidence for.


Neither am I, the definition of racism is very clear and simple:
Any and all prejudice or discrimination based on race.
See? Simple.


And for the 201 billion times, the impact is separate from the intent.
There doesn't need to be an impact of her words for it to be racist.
How is this hard to understand?


So, basically, you have zero idea what I said or wrote, or simply skipped and didn't read anything. Good to know.


No it's not.
Pointing out why things happen and why a given problem exist is not racist, nor is related to race to begin with.


I need to provide evidence for the fact that the middle class is shrinking and poverty is spreading in the US? A topic that is talked about non-stop in the US and is the main issue in every election in the US currently?

Or evidence for the fact that infrastructure in the US is crumbling and thus the red herring you provided about how black people are the only ones who get, in some occasions, unsafe drinking water because "racism", even when the entire US, especially the flyover states, are affected by these problems and thus suffering from the exact same thing? Also a main issue discussed non-stop in every election?

Or about the international gangs that have infested the US major cities which you're trying to claim Trump is racist for using it as a running point but somehow I need to prove that it exists to begin with? Also an issue that is brought up nonstop in every election to the point that each candidate has to make a plan for it.


1. There are many studies that all confirm that Trump won (at least partly) because of racism. Since you bring no evidence to contradict these studies, there is no reason to believe you over thee actual evidence.

https://www.prri.org/research/white-wor ... ald-trump/
https://academic.oup.com/poq/article/83/1/91/5494625
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf ... polq.12737

2. We are discussing negative impacts. Your unsupported explanations about how racism against blacks has never caused any negative impacts whatsoever is contradicted by history.

This is why I am asking for evidence that blacks have never had any negative impacts from racism.

If you cannot provide evidence for that claim, you must concede that the “racism” displayed in the OP does not compare to the racism that blacks deal with.
User avatar
By Donna
#15069406
Sivad wrote:I stop responding when the discussions get too effin pofo to continue. There's no point in getting into the weeds with people who don't know what they're talking about to begin with.


Well that is a bunch of bullshit. I'm perfectly willing to answer any questions, clarify definitions, deliberate any subject, but you never want to leave your comfort zone.

Like when you said "we know for certain that the MHWP wasn't global", that's the retarded end of the discussion for me right there.


Sorry but simply saying "that's the retarded end of the discussion for me right there" is not a real argument, you're simply arguing from incredulity (and you should be making that point in the thread in question, not here).

pofo is more of a sandbox for working out thoughts and arguments, it's not a place for serious discussion.


Sounds like a weak excuse by someone who doesn't want to be held accountable for what they say. It's actually a lot more suitable to have serious discussions on message boards than other internet mediums, especially social media. You can embed links, videos, tweets, use more writing space, italicize or bold text etc. to organize your thoughts and marshal your arguments. There have been plenty of thoughtful discussions on PoFo over the years, many quite memorable and instructive (between people who are smart and honest enough to have them, at least).
By anasawad
#15069410
@Pants-of-dog
1. There are many studies that all confirm that Trump won (at least partly) because of racism. Since you bring no evidence to contradict these studies, there is no reason to believe you over thee actual evidence.

Let's see.
The article you posted in the last post said its emphasis is mainly on anti-immigration and anti-establishment sentiments.

This one: https://www.prri.org/research/white-wor ... ald-trump/ doesn't emphasis racism, rather economic and cultural change.
And quote the relevant parts of the two others, too long to spend an hour looking for their proof.
Though from the first part of the second one, it mentions the rapid demographic, cultural, and economic change and the alienation of the working class, so I'm guessing it also doesn't put the blame on racism, but rather a set of factors.

2. We are discussing negative impacts.

No, YOU are trying to frame it like that, but the discussion is about what she said, which is racist.

Your unsupported explanations about how racism against blacks has never caused any negative impacts whatsoever is contradicted by history.

It's not contradicted by history actually, it's proven by it.
The era you're trying to appeal to ended around 50-60 years ago and its effects have already ended since these decades have had a huge affirmative action policy all across. The only problems remaining are problems that are general to the entire country.
Unsafe drinking water? You must be talking about Flint right? A city with half black half white population, if it was racism driven then it wouldn't affect the white population as well.
It's more accurate that the reason for the crumbling infrastructure in Flint is due to the fact that the state has went bankrupt after all the industries moved out and it never recovered.

Poverty? the US has around half its population either in poverty or on the verge of poverty, with atleast 15% of the population in food insecurity, and the UN described some areas in the flyover states (Which are majority white) as third world. That doesn't seem like a problem localized to black people because it's affecting the entire country, as such your claim that its racism is void of logic.

And regarding illegal immigration and international crime (The topics you claim Trump is racist because) are areas where it was Obama who did the most effort to solve both by cracking down on these mobs and by deporting record numbers of illegal immigrants due to the negative effects both these factors have on the country.

Also, the violence part has been going on since the war on drugs, a period long enough that both conservatives and liberal progressives both took turns on attempting to solve these problems.


This is why I am asking for evidence that blacks have never had any negative impacts from racism.

Cut it with the bullshit strawman and bother reading what I post.

Everything I wrote so far are known facts and have been main and constant issues of discussion for decades now in the US.

You're the one claiming that all these problems are caused by racism, and as such, you're the one who needs to prove it.
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