Sanders: Can he win broad support? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15069516
Bernie Sanders may now be the front-runner for the Democratic presidential nomination, said Dylan Scott in Vox.com, but anxious moderates are deeply worried that his signature policy, “Medicare for all,” is “a political albatross.” Last week the powerful Culinary Workers Union of Nevada distributed flyers urging its 60,000 members to oppose Medicare for all when participating in the Feb. 22 caucus, because it would terminate the generous, employer-provided health care plan they’d won through labor negotiations. The Culinary Workers’ opposition hints at a bigger problem for Sanders’ campaign. While Medicare for all polls well (56 percent) in the abstract, support plummets to 37 percent when voters are told it means the end of the private insurance on which 180 million Americans currently depend. Some of Sanders’ supporters seem to recognize the danger, said Joseph Zeballos-Roig in BusinessInsider .com. His “key surrogate,” New York Rep. Alexandria Ocasio- Cortez, said that people shouldn’t let Medicare for all keep them from supporting Sanders, because Congress won’t pass such a sweeping reform anyway. By putting single-payer on the table, she said, Sanders can get “a public option”—that is, Medicare for those who want it—as a compromise.....
source : http://www.vikilix.com/2020/02/24/sande ... d-support/
#15069522
alyas wrote:
Bernie Sanders may now be the front-runner for the Democratic presidential nomination, said Dylan Scott in Vox.com, but anxious moderates are deeply worried that his signature policy, “Medicare for all,” is “a political albatross.” Last week the powerful Culinary Workers Union of Nevada distributed flyers urging its 60,000 members to oppose Medicare for all when participating in the Feb. 22 caucus, because it would terminate the generous, employer-provided health care plan they’d won through labor negotiations. The Culinary Workers’ opposition hints at a bigger problem for Sanders’ campaign. While Medicare for all polls well (56 percent) in the abstract, support plummets to 37 percent when voters are told it means the end of the private insurance on which 180 million Americans currently depend. Some of Sanders’ supporters seem to recognize the danger, said Joseph Zeballos-Roig in BusinessInsider .com. His “key surrogate,” New York Rep. Alexandria Ocasio- Cortez, said that people shouldn’t let Medicare for all keep them from supporting Sanders, because Congress won’t pass such a sweeping reform anyway. By putting single-payer on the table, she said, Sanders can get “a public option”—that is, Medicare for those who want it—as a compromise.....
source : http://www.vikilix.com/2020/02/24/sande ... d-support/



Has it really been so long?

People used to expect a presidential candidate to be aspirational.

No matter, you'll get used to it. A presidential election is always a referendum. Do you want to change or stick with what you've got?

If they're in the mood to mix it up, they vote for change. You can wish there was more thinking involved, I certainly do. But that's the way it works.

Bernie can handle Trump.
#15069725
Would be curious to know how much clout the insurance companies have in these unions coming out against Bernie. But late is right, he's running as a reformer, not as a traditional candidate. If Americans honestly prefer Trump to him, that's on them. Herbert Marcuse will be laughing beyond the grave.
#15069779
one big problem Sanders has is the big democrat machine isn't going to be rigging the vote for him across the country like it does for its establishment candidates.
#15069782
I personally am not a supporter of Bernie Sanders. I will vote for him though over Donald Trump if Bernie is the democratic nominee. I'll vote for almost anybody over Donald Trump. I like Pete Buttigieg. It would be nice if he was the nominee for the democrats, but right now it appears it's Bernie Sanders unless something changes. I think Pete Buttgieg has more real backbone than Bernie Sanders when it comes to dealing with America's adversaries and won't betray our allies like Donald Trump did. Plus, I am not a fan at all of Bernie Sanders statements about Castro. Bernie is mistaken in his comments. I think Pete Buttgieg is wise choice for the nominee for the Democratic party to run for President. I have a lot of respect for Pete.
#15069785
Politics_Observer wrote:I am not a fan at all of Bernie Sanders statements about Castro. Bernie is mistaken in his comments.

If a President actually had the balls to invade Cuba, overthrow the fascist regime there and introduce democracy, they would have my full support, as Reagan did in Grenada and H Bush did in Panama. However failing that I want sanctions lifted. I was totally opposed to the sanctions against Iraq, but totally supportive of Bush and Blair's invasion.

Given invasion is not going to happen Sanders actually has the best policy on Cuba. But my most important issue is which candidate is most likely to lift the sanctions against Russia.
#15069786
Rich wrote:If a President actually had the balls to invade Cuba, overthrow the fascist regime there and introduce democracy, they would have my full support, as Reagan did in Grenada and H Bush did in Panama. However failing that I want sanctions lifted. I was totally opposed to the sanctions against Iraq, but totally supportive of Bush and Blair's invasion.

Given invasion is not going to happen Sanders actually has the best policy on Cuba. But my most important issue is which candidate is most likely to lift the sanctions against Russia.

This reminds me of the bay of pigs thing. It's easy to criticize Cuba but for what it's worth, if someone doesn't like it, it doesn't seem all that hard to leave.

Telling off the Cubans who did leave is probably not smart but who knows maybe they'll fall in line!
#15069788
Politics_Observer wrote:
Plus, I am not a fan at all of Bernie Sanders statements about Castro.



The corrupt oligarchs that ran Cuba before Castro were a lot worse than Castro.

Castro started national health care and education. WHO uses infant mortality as a snapshot of quality of health care in a country. At one point in the 1980s, when Republicans were being particularly egregious, Cuba had a lower infant mortality rate than we did.

That ought to tell you something.

What you should be asking yourself is why they didn't kick Castro out the way they did the other guys?

The reason is simple. All he had to do was point at the tin pot dictators we installed in places like Guatemala, and ask them if they wanted to live like that. They very much did not.

So why the crazy about Cuba? The Cold War hysteria never completely left Washington DC. Frankly, it never made sense in a place like Cuba.

What matters is the relationship. We developed relationships with lots of communist countries.
The difference is the corrupt bastards that escaped Cuba kept throwing money at politicians.
They managed to keep our relationship frozen in the early 1960s.

But you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Europe uses Cuba as a cheap vacation destination, and that has poured money into the economy. We could have done with Cuba what we did with China. That is, get a good working relationship with them in the hope that eventually economics would do what force could not.

So what Bernie is saying is just common sense.
#15069834
So Bernie Sanders made some more balanced - but still critical - comments on Castro's Cuba and it's still a problem. While Buttigeek responded moderately and Bloomdork tried to be facetious, Joe Bygone's campaign attacked him directly like he's a pro-authoritarian Communist that "seems to have found more inspiration in the Soviets, Sandinistas, Chavistas, and Castro than in America," - like they're more representative of America than Sanders while their campaign is dying. :lol:

Sanders actually criticised Cuba for its authoritarianism, but they attacked him like he'd praised them for it. :roll:
#15069850
Beren wrote:Sanders actually criticised Cuba for its authoritarianism, but they attacked him like he'd praised them for it. :roll:


Does Sanders try to separate socialism from the authoritanianism that more often than not caused by its application?

I tend to think socialism to be something prone to go wrong, so trying to separate the two is, while strictly correct, prone to criticism.
#15069854
Finfinder wrote:Sanders isn't a socialist he is a communist.
My question and hypothesis does not change. I am asking whether "Sanders' criticism of Cuba's authoritaranism" (if exists) is a display of "he believes that socialism / communism and authoritaranism are independent of each other".

IMHO the belief (if proven) is logical, but people who know how easy socialism / communism goes wrong will of course be unhappy with that.
#15069856
Beren wrote:Sanders actually criticised Cuba for its authoritarianism, but they attacked him like he'd praised them for it. :roll:

:lol: I'm reminded of those people who say

I like the Nazis old age insurance, rent supplements, unemployment and disability benefits, old-age homes, interest-free loans for married couples, healthcare insurance, Special Welfare "for travellers' aid at railway stations; relief for ex-convicts; 'support' for re-migrants from abroad; assistance for the physically disabled, hard-of-hearing, deaf, mute, and blind; relief for the elderly, their fight against illicit drugs and epidemics", corrective training, mediation assistance" and the Winter Relief of the German People.

But I do criticise them for being a bit too authoritarian.
#15069857
Patrickov wrote:My question and hypothesis does not change. I am asking whether "Sanders' criticism of Cuba's authoritaranism" (if exists) is a display of "he believes that socialism / communism and authoritaranism are independent of each other".

IMHO the belief (if proven) is logical, but people who know how easy socialism / communism goes wrong will of course be unhappy with that.


I happen to live in Florida and it is a pretty important state to win if you want to be president. I can tell you Sanders statements about Cuba are not going over well here especially on the East coast of FL. His refusal condemn murderous tyrannical socialist regimes is outrageous. Ask the Cubans in Florida how Castro stole their land and murdered their families. BUT Bernie doesn't condemn this he puts lipstick on the pig they had literacy program, yea these people learned how to say 'don't shoot me" under Castro.
#15069859
Rich wrote::lol: I'm reminded of those people who say

I like the Nazis old age insurance, rent supplements, unemployment and disability benefits, old-age homes, interest-free loans for married couples, healthcare insurance, Special Welfare "for travellers' aid at railway stations; relief for ex-convicts; 'support' for re-migrants from abroad; assistance for the physically disabled, hard-of-hearing, deaf, mute, and blind; relief for the elderly, their fight against illicit drugs and epidemics", corrective training, mediation assistance" and the Winter Relief of the German People.

But I do criticise them for being a bit too authoritarian.

Even that view is more objective and reasonable than mindless demonization and it definitely helps to understand the Nazis' appeal and success, and history in general, better.
#15070008
@late

Castro was a dictator and a tyrant. The only reason why Castro introduced literacy programs in Cuba is so that people could read his propaganda and he could control people better. He was not some sort of kind, benevolent enlightened dictator looking out for the best interests of his people. To think otherwise is pretty naive.
#15070016
late wrote:The corrupt oligarchs that ran Cuba before Castro were a lot worse than Castro.

Castro started national health care and education. WHO uses infant mortality as a snapshot of quality of health care in a country. At one point in the 1980s, when Republicans were being particularly egregious, Cuba had a lower infant mortality rate than we did.

That ought to tell you something.

What you should be asking yourself is why they didn't kick Castro out the way they did the other guys?

The reason is simple. All he had to do was point at the tin pot dictators we installed in places like Guatemala, and ask them if they wanted to live like that. They very much did not.

So why the crazy about Cuba? The Cold War hysteria never completely left Washington DC. Frankly, it never made sense in a place like Cuba.

What matters is the relationship. We developed relationships with lots of communist countries.
The difference is the corrupt bastards that escaped Cuba kept throwing money at politicians.
They managed to keep our relationship frozen in the early 1960s.

But you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Europe uses Cuba as a cheap vacation destination, and that has poured money into the economy. We could have done with Cuba what we did with China. That is, get a good working relationship with them in the hope that eventually economics would do what force could not.

So what Bernie is saying is just common sense.

Nothing Bernie Sanders is saying makes common sense to a near genius, like me.
#15070019
Hindsite wrote:Nothing Bernie Sanders is saying makes common sense to a near genius, like me.


Well the first thing you can be relieved about is that Sanders is definitely not an actual Socialist, as much as his enemies and even some friends may want him to be. He's an FDR Democrat, an old school Liberal who has also learned to mouth the modern political shibboleths on sexuality, race and abortion correctly for the new Liberals.
#15070021
annatar1914 wrote:Well the first thing you can be relieved about is that Sanders is definitely not an actual Socialist, as much as his enemies and even some friends may want him to be. He's an FDR Democrat, an old school Liberal who has also learned to mouth the modern political shibboleths on sexuality, race and abortion correctly for the new Liberals.

Well, maybe we can agree that Bernie Sanders is a fraud.

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