Bernie Sanders wins Nevada Caucus--Will he win Super Tuesday? - Page 8 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15070160
Tainari88 wrote:Finfinder, the amount of things you don't know about the Spanish speaking political world and the amount of reality that people live in very poor nations and the stark poverty one witnesses here in Mexico on a daily basis makes one wonder how any person in their right mind thinks the solution to poverty? Is electing a racist, bigoted piece of shit billionaire is the only way to go for working class representation. .


I know enough. Why do expect everyone to be an expert and classically educated in these areas? We have been through this before you refused to point out policies that prove Trump is what you say.

Americans are generous and kind peoples why do you expect us to take care of the world? I don't believe in Democrat or liberal politics. Do you hate me now ?

Tainari88 wrote:I don't have time Fin to go over all the stuff you said about not having natural resources and how Puerto Rico can't make it on its own? It is ridiculous. There are tiny nations with less material and human resources than Puerto Rico is and they are making it on their own for a very very long time.


Great then!! And as I said before I support Puerto Ricos independence, but it does tip my curiosity and reduces the validity of your lectures why you left PR to make your money in the US and Mexico?

Tainari88 wrote:Corruption? The USA has corruption in its government Fin yes or no? Clinton, Reagan, Bush, etc. They all had corrupt lobbyists and pay offs by wealthy donors. Grover Norquist said that the Republican Party BRAND was no new taxes and basically tax cuts for the rich or being fired. No government. Drown it in the bathtub he said. Why are programs like Social Security, Veteran's benefits necessary? Who uses those services? Super rich people? Mostly not. Why are they necessary? I question everything. I look into the reasons behind these policies. It is always some lame excuse for not doing what needs to be done. It is crazy. The amount of effort the tiny elite expend to deny rights, and wealth to the largest body of wealth the world has ever known. The working people of the world. Why do they INSIST on denying people rights? Why? Explain that to me? .


Of course there is corruption here you think its better with Bernie or a Democrat ? I really find you an interesting person, we are talking about Puerto Rico so again I'm fascinated by the approach you take for a person that fashions themselves an intellectual. Wouldn't you be better served taking ownership of the corruption problems in PR instead of always this deflection. Do you think you can change opinion when you treat people this way? Until you want to get real and take ownership you have lowered your own arguments and criticism of the US.


Tainari88 wrote:The Latin Americans are a class divided society. The rich in Latin America live incredibly well. The poor don't. But there is no evidence at all in our nations that a poor person somehow thinks that some billionaire rich buffoon who is a racist against Latinos and Blacks....is somehow the man who is going to turn it all around Fin. That shit is just too much to understand for people like us Latin Americans who have lived poverty in our families, our nations and in our histories. We have strong class identities. It says? We are poor people, peasant people or just plain urban folk without MONEY. The billionaires and millionaires in Mexico, Latin America, etc. are NOT THE POORS BUDDIES and so on....the USA? Got a bunch of confused foolish voters thinking Trump is going to get rid of the elite in DC. Only totally confused and frustrated people do that.

For us? I got stopped in a parking lot while buying basics today, milk, eggs, bread, etc. at a store here...the parking lot attendant was an old man. Miguel. Retiree who gets tips helping shoppers put the groceries away in the cars...five pesos here and there and he goes home with five dollars about 100 pesos if he is lucky for helping lug groceries in the sun....he asked me about my Spanish. It doesn't sound Mexican Fin. He asked me where I was from.....I told him. He said, "What is going on in Puerto Rico? Why are you with the USA? That racist man insulting the people of Mexico and he is rich and an arrogant 'fresita' (a word used by Mexicans that is slang for a rich stuck up silver spoon in their mouth spoiled rotten asshole person)? I explained why we were with the USA. He said, "How come you can't vote if you stay in Puerto Rico? In your own community? But once you leave Puerto Rico and go for living in the USA your political rights are restored? That is like telling a Mexican to leave Mexico to be able to vote in Mexico. That is INSANE." Miguel the dude....he thinks it is crazy.

How does one explain the insanity of colonialism and all the crap it dictates?

No, the right and the left fight it out violently in Latin cultures. Spanish civil war. The Mexican Revolution, the Cuban Revolution, the wars of Independence in South America with Simon Bolivar. Etc. etc. The real FIGHT is between Right and Left about what is the solution to POWER. To lack of progress. To rights. To freedom.

BJ here doesn't believe in equality. I have explained how it has to do with rights. Not abilities and not talents and not variations in intelligence etc. It is about RIGHTS and innate value of all human rights and being a human with human needs. Socialism. To each according to their abilities and to each according to their needs.

The RIGHT in Latin America is snobby, oppressive, violent, and are oligarchs and classist and racist and everything else. Just like the RIGHT tends to be in the USA. In Europe, and in many places. It is about IDEOLOGY and political philosophy.

We go back to what is the essence of why the Right thinks the way they do and the Left doesn't think the way the RIGHT does.

It is about three things, RIGHTS, EQUALITY, and INNATE HUMAN VALUE AND MEETING NEEDS and ABILITIES.

That is it. Until those problems are resolved the Right and the Left in all HUMAN nations are gonna have fights to the bloody end of time.

I already went over what I think the Right is in the brain. Reptilian, Fear Based and Regressive.

I think I believe this world is in movement and changing and always evolving. Groups evolve Fin. Individuals don't. That is a fact of anthropology. A fact. Not opinion.

Staying stuck in fear and reptile reactions in politics won't fit an internationalist economic system change like modern capitalism is.

It won't.

That is it.

I will fight for the opposite of fear. That is where my politics are at.


I can go line by line of your post but I thought about it. I think you have some good and insightful things to say. I just don't understand why you waste all that by drawing a line in the sand with all this contempt you have for people that haven't lived your life yet such harsh criticism for a life you never lived. Wouldn't you be better served at being a teacher with compassion and understanding instead of this righteous and comtepted indignation for your students. Is this the only way to go, teaching people, or alienating them?
You limit yourself by being so closed minded and I hope you can find some peace within yourself to move forward with your insights in life. You are not convincing people you are just stoking your own personal hatred and fear.
#15070163
A great answer to these type of questions @Finfinder :

The guest speaker in this video addresses the problems Fin:




I love debating with @blackjack21 not because I agree with him and he agrees with me....no. But because he likes reading books, he likes finding reasons, and he likes being firm in his politics.

I don't like the politics he advocates for. But it a highly satisfying exchange because he knows the reasons why he believes what he believes.

If we are going to have fun and learn a lot in debates and discussions on PoFo Fin?

Got to be readers, writers and analyzers of the whys of political thought, political history and political science.

Otherwise why even spend time in here Fin? I can have fun talking small talk on other sites and not deal with the pressures of producing evidence to back my claim. And not having to work hard on justifying my point of view.

There is an art to exchanging ideas Fin. I got mine at the University of Puerto Rico in 1984. I then got more things in a Mexican university and more with a bunch of professors from the University of Colorado as well, and recently some more skills at Regis University in Denver...

Now I go to a place that is called the UADY. La Universidad Autonoma de Yucatan.

I don't want to stop learning Fin. Both my parents were very humble and poor people. But one thing they were insistent on? You better dominate well more than one human language. And you better be educated. That means? Well formed, disciplined in reading and writing and analyzing, synthesizing information Fin. The other thing? Is not to be confused about the reasons you stand behind your politics!

You better sweat hard and for years to figure out why you are politically who you are.

My mother was someone who sweated for her political philosophy til she took her very last breath on this earth on the 19th of September 2007. She went down fighting for her politics, her life and her values.

I am her second daughter. I am not going to come in to some public debate forum and disappoint my mother and her values. I will be prepared and represent the Puerto Rican women who advocate for independence with everything I got Fin.

I was so lucky to have my mother. And all the women behind her for centuries....I name them all now, my mother's first name was Iris Violeta. Purple Iris. Her mother was Francisca "Dona Paquita", her mother was Anastasia, her mother was Juana, her mother was Maria, and the centuries reach back to 16th century Puerto Rico, Southern Spain, Eastern Kenya and Lithuana, and Syria and etc...back to the entire history of human evolution....all together....as one.....

All of us are miracles of nature and time and life.

I am not going to disappoint her life....I am her daughter.....forever.
#15070170
Tainari88 wrote:A great answer to these type of questions @Finfinder :

The guest speaker in this video addresses the problems Fin:




I love debating with @blackjack21 not because I agree with him and he agrees with me....no. But because he likes reading books, he likes finding reasons, and he likes being firm in his politics.

I don't like the politics he advocates for. But it a highly satisfying exchange because he knows the reasons why he believes what he believes.

If we are going to have fun and learn a lot in debates and discussions on PoFo Fin?

Got to be readers, writers and analyzers of the whys of political thought, political history and political science.

Otherwise why even spend time in here Fin? I can have fun talking small talk on other sites and not deal with the pressures of producing evidence to back my claim. And not having to work hard on justifying my point of view.

There is an art to exchanging ideas Fin. I got mine at the University of Puerto Rico in 1984. I then got more things in a Mexican university and more with a bunch of professors from the University of Colorado as well, and recently some more skills at Regis University in Denver...

Now I go to a place that is called the UADY. La Universidad Autonoma de Yucatan.

I don't want to stop learning Fin. Both my parents were very humble and poor people. But one thing they were insistent on? You better dominate well more than one human language. And you better be educated. That means? Well formed, disciplined in reading and writing and analyzing, synthesizing information Fin. The other thing? Is not to be confused about the reasons you stand behind your politics!

You better sweat hard and for years to figure out why you are politically who you are.

My mother was someone who sweated for her political philosophy til she took her very last breath on this earth on the 19th of September 2007. She went down fighting for her politics, her life and her values.

I am her second daughter. I am not going to come in to some public debate forum and disappoint my mother and her values. I will be prepared and represent the Puerto Rican women who advocate for independence with everything I got Fin.

I was so lucky to have my mother. And all the women behind her for centuries....I name them all now, my mother's first name was Iris Violeta. Purple Iris. Her mother was Francisca "Dona Paquita", her mother was Anastasia, her mother was Juana, her mother was Maria, and the centuries reach back to 16th century Puerto Rico, Southern Spain, Eastern Kenya and Lithuana, and Syria and etc...back to the entire history of human evolution....all together....as one.....

All of us are miracles of nature and time and life.

I am not going to disappoint her life....I am her daughter.....forever.



I don't know Tanny. It is what you make of it. Your not much older than me. I say all the time I have a great friend I met on POFO and he is completely opposite of my politics, and we get along just fine in person. Could you do that? Could you be friends with someone your are politically the opposite of, because to me that is the art of debate . That is what comes through in an honest post. Great, sure you quote books, speakers, studies, and references but can you compartmentalize it ? There are plenty of smart people on here, don't have to prove it just be it.
#15070178
Finfinder wrote:I know enough. Why do expect everyone to be an expert and classically educated in these areas? We have been through this before you refused to point out policies that prove Trump is what you say.

Americans are generous and kind peoples why do you expect us to take care of the world? I don't believe in Democrat or liberal politics. Do you hate me now ?



Great then!! And as I said before I support Puerto Ricos independence, but it does tip my curiosity and reduces the validity of your lectures why you left PR to make your money in the US and Mexico?



Of course there is corruption here you think its better with Bernie or a Democrat ? I really find you an interesting person, we are talking about Puerto Rico so again I'm fascinated by the approach you take for a person that fashions themselves an intellectual. Wouldn't you be better served taking ownership of the corruption problems in PR instead of always this deflection. Do you think you can change opinion when you treat people this way? Until you want to get real and take ownership you have lowered your own arguments and criticism of the US.




I can go line by line of your post but I thought about it. I think you have some good and insightful things to say. I just don't understand why you waste all that by drawing a line in the sand with all this contempt you have for people that haven't lived your life yet such harsh criticism for a life you never lived. Wouldn't you be better served at being a teacher with compassion and understanding instead of this righteous and comtepted indignation for your students. Is this the only way to go, teaching people, or alienating them?
You limit yourself by being so closed minded and I hope you can find some peace within yourself to move forward with your insights in life. You are not convincing people you are just stoking your own personal hatred and fear.


Finfinder? I am not in a classroom Fin. I am in a politicsforum.org where people come to debate and discuss politics. This is not a place for everyone finding peace and happiness and taking out tea cups and agreeing.

Why do you think it should be? That is what is curious to me?

You have to believe I hate and fear because I disagree with you?

How do you think it goes? Conflict? Conflict in this world is INEVITABLE. How one deals with it is very very important.

I am not an American man from your point of view Fin. I am not. Wasn't born there and did not get raised in that culture or society in terms of values and in terms of experiences. Puerto Rico is a small island. It is getting a lot of injustice. How to fix that? Being passive? Not writing or speaking or discussing?

Be realistic Fin. Other people have other politics. I accept that a whole lot of people are not socialists in the USA, in Puerto Rico and in many places. That is part of life. People who don't agree. Men don't think like women. Young people don't think like old people.

It is normal. Difference and conflict.

You are right about hatred on my part for only one thing. I HATE INJUSTICE. I HATE RACISM. AND I HATE EXPLOITATION.

And the humans who do those things? Won't be respected by me.

People who say Ï don't care about injustice. What kind of people are they?

Not my kind of people Fin. Never my kind of people.

One guy said, "What kind of people do you like Tainari?" My answer is simple Fin...."Decent people and who put justice as their primary value in life. I married a just man. A decent man. Not an unjust man." Many women tell me...hey what is it that you respect in a man? I reply," A man that is just down to his last cell. Someone who believes in being just with everyone. Women, men and children. Everyone. That is the kind of human being I am going to give my heart to."

I think you think I have hatred and fear about what Fin? Conflict? No, I feel about it like Mandela talked about it in this clip:



The USA is holding on to the island Fin in unfair ways. I am not going to approve an unjust government.

Once they release the island? All is forgiven and all is water under the bridge...



One man and one vote. They don't let Puerto Rico do that? You think that is fair Fin?
#15070183
Finfinder wrote:I don't know Tanny. It is what you make of it. Your not much older than me. I say all the time I have a great friend I met on POFO and he is completely opposite of my politics, and we get along just fine in person. Could you do that? Could you be friends with someone your are politically the opposite of, because to me that is the art of debate . That is what comes through in an honest post. Great, sure you quote books, speakers, studies, and references but can you compartmentalize it ? There are plenty of smart people on here, don't have to prove it just be it.


My husband has a friend who is a true blue Republican. He finds friendship with him. But it is relationship based on mutual respect. That is critical.

Jimjam is not a socialist. I love him. Rancid is not a socialist. I love him too.

Many people I have known in this world. And people I have loved. Most of them are people who I never discuss politics with.

Most people don't think about it Fin. I was never taught to not think about it. To be apathetic about politics.

I like Mandela. On a website that you do a test on for the person's who's values in politics you most are similar to? It said here is the politician who's views you most represent and who most reflect your value system. Nelson Mandela. That is the man who they said most closely resembled my politics. It is interesting. He has some rules for success. I agree with each and every one of them.

He did not go for white domination or black domination. He went for all people together. That others disagree and think it an impossible thing to accomplish? I don't think it is. He was a black man in a very racist system condemned to die in prison and wound up leading the nation and the government that at first painted him as a hater, a radical, a terrorist. In the end? He won over all of them...the fearmongers, the haters, the deniers and the ones who thought no one could conquer the obstacles in injustice.

He proved them wrong. So? I leave you with his clip discussing who he is:

#15070184
Finfinder wrote:I don't know Tanny. It is what you make of it. Your not much older than me. I say all the time I have a great friend I met on POFO and he is completely opposite of my politics, and we get along just fine in person. Could you do that? Could you be friends with someone your are politically the opposite of, because to me that is the art of debate . That is what comes through in an honest post. Great, sure you quote books, speakers, studies, and references but can you compartmentalize it ? There are plenty of smart people on here, don't have to prove it just be it.


My husband has a friend who is a true blue Republican. He finds friendship with him. But it is relationship based on mutual respect. That is critical.

Jimjam is not a socialist. I love him. Rancid is not a socialist. I love him too.

Many people I have known in this world. And people I have loved. Most of them are people who I never discuss politics with.

Most people don't think about it Fin. I was never taught to not think about it. To be apathetic about politics.

I like Mandela. On a website that you do a test on for the person's who's values in politics you most are similar to? It said here is the politician who's views you most represent and who most reflect your value system. Nelson Mandela. That is the man who they said most closely resembled my politics. It is interesting. He has some rules for success. I agree with each and every one of them.

He did not go for white domination or black domination. He went for all people together. That others disagree and think it an impossible thing to accomplish? I don't think it is. He was a black man in a very racist system condemned to die in prison and wound up leading the nation and the government that at first painted him as a hater, a radical, a terrorist. In the end? He won over all of them...the fearmongers, the haters, the deniers and the ones who thought no one could conquer the obstacles in injustice.

He proved them wrong. So? I leave you with his clip discussing who he is:

#15070187
Tainari88 wrote:I do know a lot about Suriname and I think about tiny nations...like Nicaragua and their culture, history and etc. I think about Djibouti and every other TINY nation in the world. I have a philosophy....that if you get to know the most unimportant nations (or the nations the Empires say are worthless?) you wind up learning a lot.

Indeed. I don't think that requires a philosophy, but rather a desire for knowledge.

Tainari88 wrote:You are wrong about me in many ways.....

I am not surprised.

You're just like everyone else. You have a prejudicial relationship to your own point of view. Hence, you talk regularly about Puerto Rico, but you don't talk about Suriname unless I bring it up.

Tainari88 wrote:Reagan...was someone you admired? Ay, BJ. I never liked that man. Never thought him someone who's leadership was original, striking and profound....not my type of politician.

Socialists are relentless, and Reagan understood that. Trump understands it culturally and is even better at combatting it culturally than Reagan. Liberals, by contrast, seem a bit lazier to me, especially Republicans.

Tainari88 wrote:Are you looking forward to Denny's Senior Menu in a few years Relampaguito? :D

Not particularly. I don't eat out as much. I have a pretty big kitchen at home. I don't commute for work, so I enjoy a bit of cooking.

Tainari88 wrote:You can loathe it but how is universalism NOT part of human beings BJ?

It is a concept. My point is that socialists and liberals take something that may have local popularity and applicability and try to make it a global standard unnecessarily. Socialism is every bit as destructive of culture as capitalism can be. Maybe even more so.

Tainari88 wrote:That is universality BJ.

That is reproductive fitness, not universality. Science may give you answers that are not consistent with your political views. Just as you read voraciously as a young student (I did too), I learn quite a bit by defending unpopular ideas--why I ended up bringing Octavian Caesar's public institution of marriage into a debate on "gay marriage" at a time when people kept arguing that marriage was about love and feelings when the history and the law does not bear that out at all. Studies on reproductive fitness sometimes help explain--though not agreeably to a socialist--why things such as double standards may exist. For example, in humans, reproductive fitness has an advantage where women are primarily monogamous and men are not. It doesn't fit the political model of men and women are equal and men cheating being acceptable and women being slut slut-shamed is unfair.

Tainari88 wrote:We are all one type of species.

And that is abstraction, not quite universality. Again, abstraction can be thought of as a controlled form of ignorance.

Tainari88 wrote:Not just the globalist multinational corporations, and international banks jumping from one nation to another that protects their profits no matter what language or culture they seep into....it is universalist in principle.

Banks aren't there to protect profits, per se. Banks facilitate a store of value and facilitate transactions. Banks profit by paying depositors and charging borrowers, and by clearing transactions. In my experience in computing, I've learned something that I think is more fundamental to nature--simplicity scales, complexity does not. For example, the law of negotiable instruments is relatively simple and allows for the facilitation of transactions by means other than cash, especially over long distances. It's relatively simple.

Tainari88 wrote:They are the ultimate universalists BJ.

In some respects. The reason it works, though, is that they discharge anything unnecessary to achieve their objectives. For example, checking accounts were the province of rich people. Bank of America changed that by making checking accounts available to people of average means. As more and more people got checking accounts, the costs of clearing checks exploded. Banks hired high school kids to do a lot of that clearing. At one point, Bank of America realized that at the rate the business was growing, they would hire all the high school girls in the country and still not have enough personnel. They needed a technological breakthrough. They came up with two technologies. MICR encoding (Magnetic Ink Character Recognition) and machine-readable fonts--the beginnings of optical character recognition. With that, they could simply run checks through a scanner and only have to type in the dollar amount--radically speeding up the process of check clearing. That's why scanning checks on your smart phone is available now. You still type in the amount, but the ABA and account numbers are machine readable.

Tainari88 wrote:They are successful at the universality of their greed.

The need to obtain resources is common to all living things--and hence could be thought of as universal.

Tainari88 wrote:You can deny it and say thermodynamics says there are limits. There are limits. But not to the greed of the capitalist class that is internationalist. But to how much a planetary system allows you to violate natural physics laws, and species replenishment laws, and every other law that rules a loop system.

There are limits. In my lifetime of experience, my observation is that simple systems scale and complex systems do not. Complex systems require some kind of encapsulation.

Tainari88 wrote:They are ruled by a series of the Power of Myths. What are these myths and who believes in them as if they are a law of physics? Human beings.

Indeed. The reason I think we are where we are politically is that the establishment pushed myths that are simply not accepted. For example, I do not accept that gay marriage is part of the US constitution. I do not accept that homosexuality is a fundamental right. As a libertarian-leaning person, I understand the desire to limit the negative effects of the state and so I'm generally tolerant of the decriminalization of homosexuality. As a conservative, I understand the historical push to stamp it out for at least two reasons--increasing reproductive fitness, and staving off sexually-transmitted diseases in pre-scientific populations. Today, we have a political class that is pushing gender non-binary, transgender, etc. stuff when we had 20M able-bodied people out of work. Trump addressed that unemployment problem and is widely loved because of it. Yet, the establishment's latest divide and conquer, push for a universal agreement on things like global warming or deviant sexuality is not universally accepted to the point that they are now losing power. Trump simply trashed the establishment when no establishment politician would do that. Bernie is challenging their myths too. It's interesting that these utterly improbable politicians are the ones with the most grass roots popular support.

The establishment is playing a dangerous game. Think about a $20 bill. It is just a scrap of paper. It is the ultimate myth. It has no intrinsic value. If the establishment keeps pushing radical ideas, people will completely lose faith in the establishment.

I pointed this out after 9/11--that the establishment more or less had to go to war, because 9/11 showed that the establishment, for all its military spending, did not keep the American people safe. Remember the 2016 presidential debates? Jeb Bush defended his brother saying that George W. Bush kept us safe (after 9/11). Trump took a swipe right back and said that 9/11 happened on his watch--and it was an undeniable truth.

Tainari88 wrote:Why go to those nations? For a job? Because it is part of your job?

For fun. Remember that I hate Latinos only in your imagination, not in real life.

Tainari88 wrote:Why is the internet in all these nations?

People adopt technological change quickly, but cultural change very slowly. The internet is a series of very simple stacked protocols. Simplicity scales. IP, TCP/IP, HTTP, FTP, SSH, VoIP, UDP, SMTP, etc. are all very simple. Simplicity scales.

Tainari88 wrote:So how can you argue that that is a liability when you can use it to liberate, and give universal rights to all the people in the world if they all agree on a universal human rights charter?

You are living in denial BJ.

It only takes one person to disagree for something to not be universal. You say I'm living in denial, which implicitly acknowledges that universalism is not achieved.

Tainari88 wrote:The reason you went to those societies is because there were humans there.

Well, that's an absurdly abstract assertion. There are a lot of societies with humans there that I haven't visited.

Tainari88 wrote:Who consumed a product you were selling or doing.

I was on vacation.

Tainari88 wrote:The reason why African slaves were imported to do unpaid labor in the Americas for a couple of centuries was because they were human and could do a job only human beings can do.

Again, that's absurdly abstract. The reason they were imported is because in the climate of the Caribbean and American South, Northern Europeans died at high rates quickly from exposure to the elements, but blacks died at much lower rates in the same environment. There was a compelling incentive; otherwise, it wouldn't have been done.

Tainari88 wrote:Ay, BJ, why do you insist on denying what is obvious to many people?

Again, abstraction is controlled ignorance--it's meant to find commonalities, not to render out relevant distinctions.

Tainari88 wrote:I don't get how a natural law of thermodynamics is saying that different working class people within a multinational system can't have identification with other humans of the same species and the same class saying....we can't agree.

I'm saying that entropy increases--disorganization. The tendency is that organization will not materialize in a universal sense; it's safer to bet against universalism or everyone in a single class organizing around the world.

Tainari88 wrote:Why did the capitalist industries move to Mexico in Juarez in the maquiladoras? Because a Mexican speaking Spanish working the same car assembly line as an English speaking American background doing the same job is UNIVERSAL. Interchangable.

They did it to pay less to Mexican workers than they were paying to American workers. It is a labor arbitrage.

Tainari88 wrote:Value clash:

MLK's son and his niece are both Trump supporters.
#15070192
blackjack21 wrote:

There are limits. In my lifetime of experience, my observation is that simple systems scale and complex systems do not. Complex systems require some kind of encapsulation.


As a libertarian-leaning person...



Capitalism is not a simple system. Neither are the knowledge institutions, like science, it depends on. Or the governmental processes it depends on.

There are no libertarians. It's a fantasy.
#15070201
Patrickov wrote:Well, I saw something related to Hitler, and the most prominent person whose ideology is allegedly Hitler's opposite, and having a book of quotes attributed to him, is Mao. What country Mao was from is irrelevant to my statement (the ideology and having a much-publicised book of quotes are more important), although it might be the reason that I had him in my mind first.


No, your whole statement then and now is irrelevant. Hitler =/= Mao, and Hitler is the one that Trump is apparently interested in, not Mao. I know you like relating conversations to China as a means to knock your country's government at every opportunity, so that's why I reminded you that not everything has to revolve around the Middle Kingdom.
#15070203
annatar1914 wrote:Hitler =/= Mao,

No he's certainly not. Hitler was responsible for tens of millions of death during World war II, the greatest war the world has ever seen. Mao was responsible for tens of millions of deaths in peacetime.
#15070207
Rich wrote:No he's certainly not. Hitler was responsible for tens of millions of death during World war II, the greatest war the world has ever seen. Mao was responsible for tens of millions of deaths in peacetime.


What about the class war boo?
#15070209
Rich wrote:No he's certainly not. Hitler was responsible for tens of millions of death during World war II, the greatest war the world has ever seen. Mao was responsible for tens of millions of deaths in peacetime.


Men kill for many reasons, and die for many reasons. Adolf Hitler most emphatically was not Mao Tse Tung.
#15070211
For Hitler destroying bodies had a quasi-religious significance. For Mao he probably just stared at the mass graves with sleepy eyes and didn't give it much thought because he was a peasant after all.
#15070213
blackjack21 wrote:Indeed. I don't think that requires a philosophy, but rather a desire for knowledge.

Hmm. Everyone has a philosophy BJ. In fact, I believe that even people who are apolitical make political decisions in their lives almost daily and hourly. Could you think of how people do that BJ?
You're just like everyone else. You have a prejudicial relationship to your own point of view. Hence, you talk regularly about Puerto Rico, but you don't talk about Suriname unless I bring it up.

I don't talk about a lot of things in this place. It doesn't mean I don't care. You open a topic on every country in the world and I will go there and you and I go over the salient points of each one's history? Are you willing to do that? I think not. Because you care about destroying the liberals in the establishment of the Democratic party and the average sellout Republicans in the democratic party. If you want neutrality my dear BJ? I am going to quote my Mami....who once said on the radio during an interview, "The only neutral people in this world are dead people. If you don't have a point of view on anything. You don't define yourself on any issue? You are in effect? A dead person. Even people who claim to have no position on anything wind up taking one when they are asked, pressured or forced to do so. Neutrality is for the dead." I agree with that. You might want neutrality in some things like sports referees or judges and people who are supposed to make decisions about cases or something. But not about being a human being and living your own philosophy.

Socialists are relentless, and Reagan understood that. Trump understands it culturally and is even better at combatting it culturally than Reagan. Liberals, by contrast, seem a bit lazier to me, especially Republicans.

Republicans lazy? Now now....how does one get things accomplished with these huge oppressive systems with a lot more money and power than little old places who no one cares about? Being relentless my dear BJ. Never giving up. It is the only way one gets anywhere with trying to push human societies forward Relampaguito.

Not particularly. I don't eat out as much. I have a pretty big kitchen at home. I don't commute for work, so I enjoy a bit of cooking.

You do? My mother was a fine cook. She was such a good cook that some people at her funeral in 2007 were recalling some dinners she cooked for them from 1968. There were quite a few people mentioning that about their time together. People might not remember what was said, but they do remember how she made them feel. Welcome and loved. An important thing. Food is about memories and traditions and being cared for...nourishment is that....but how one serves food to others? Is about attitude.

It is a concept. My point is that socialists and liberals take something that may have local popularity and applicability and try to make it a global standard unnecessarily. Socialism is every bit as destructive of culture as capitalism can be. Maybe even more so.

How BJ? I am interested in that point of view because to me? You got to have a structure in society that serves human needs and taps into human abilities and potentials. Eventually hopefully human beings get to the point of being so good at self change and self improvement and a sense of giving to everyone and being content with their own selves? That the structure falls away. Naturally. But that is a very very advanced human society. For now? I thing structure is needed. For now.

That is reproductive fitness, not universality. Science may give you answers that are not consistent with your political views. Just as you read voraciously as a young student (I did too), I learn quite a bit by defending unpopular ideas--why I ended up bringing Octavian Caesar's public institution of marriage into a debate on "gay marriage" at a time when people kept arguing that marriage was about love and feelings when the history and the law does not bear that out at all. Studies on reproductive fitness sometimes help explain--though not agreeably to a socialist--why things such as double standards may exist. For example, in humans, reproductive fitness has an advantage where women are primarily monogamous and men are not. It doesn't fit the political model of men and women are equal and men cheating being acceptable and women being slut slut-shamed is unfair.

I know what you are talking about BJ. That is a whole other topic. For centuries marriages were legal institutions. The love and feelings was all bullshit. That is true. In many cultures marriages were arranged, and also done without the consent of either party. It was for political, economic or social gain. Many societies never believed in monogamy at all. And still don't. In general human beings are not particularly monogamous creatures. I think for men it is harder to be monogamous for many reasons. They see things and they react to that visual. Men are sexually stimulated by sight. And they find it hard to say no to sex being offered without any responsibilities. Women can act the same way but they have a higher price to pay if they don't want to get pregnant. Babies are incredibly demanding of time, money, efforts and commitment and their mothers are vital in their first few years of life. It is different. But times change BJ. People want to get married for ideas of love and romance and how they feel about each other Senor. Gay couples and straight ones too. I won't talk about how it is when one gets married at age 18 like I did. I am fifty four now. How many years is that eh? Lol A long time. I thought for sure that life doesn't hold surprises for me anymore about love. That was a damn lie. Lol. El amor surprises the hell out of you all the damn time. I don't know who will wind up holding on to that mind of yours BJ. She better be damn intelligent that is for sure!



And that is abstraction, not quite universality. Again, abstraction can be thought of as a controlled form of ignorance.

A lot of human cultures are based on abstractions BJ. Again, one of these days you and I got to do a thread on the power of myth. What is it about human beings that some story that is abstract is making them think a certain way. SolarCross gave me one of the most brilliant explanations I had ever read about why people believe stuff and why they go for that. He is anti religious. It is interesting BJ.


Banks aren't there to protect profits, per se. Banks facilitate a store of value and facilitate transactions. Banks profit by paying depositors and charging borrowers, and by clearing transactions. In my experience in computing, I've learned something that I think is more fundamental to nature--simplicity scales, complexity does not. For example, the law of negotiable instruments is relatively simple and allows for the facilitation of transactions by means other than cash, especially over long distances. It's relatively simple.

Yes, but the conflict is about who controls what and why if there is a loan the institution or person holding the purse strings gets to dictate the terms. It is about control and power BJ. Relampaguito....another day another discussion. It seems to me you got a lot to say to me still. After all these months of these quote bombs....I still smile about you saying I wrung you out the other day. Makes me chuckle.

In some respects. The reason it works, though, is that they discharge anything unnecessary to achieve their objectives. For example, checking accounts were the province of rich people. Bank of America changed that by making checking accounts available to people of average means. As more and more people got checking accounts, the costs of clearing checks exploded. Banks hired high school kids to do a lot of that clearing. At one point, Bank of America realized that at the rate the business was growing, they would hire all the high school girls in the country and still not have enough personnel. They needed a technological breakthrough. They came up with two technologies. MICR encoding (Magnetic Ink Character Recognition) and machine-readable fonts--the beginnings of optical character recognition. With that, they could simply run checks through a scanner and only have to type in the dollar amount--radically speeding up the process of check clearing. That's why scanning checks on your smart phone is available now. You still type in the amount, but the ABA and account numbers are machine readable.

A standardization process. That is what happens with something to do with systems BJ. You got to create systems that are efficient. I think capitalism is going to create inefficiencies with time....especially with unemployed redundant people with Artificial Intelligence.

The need to obtain resources is common to all living things--and hence could be thought of as universal.

Aha something we can agree on. But how the resources are distributed is what the socialist column is going to pressure for. That Relampaguito is the core of the issue.

There are limits. In my lifetime of experience, my observation is that simple systems scale and complex systems do not. Complex systems require some kind of encapsulation.

Yes, and how do you scale it to serve human needs and maximize human potentials?

Indeed. The reason I think we are where we are politically is that the establishment pushed myths that are simply not accepted. For example, I do not accept that gay marriage is part of the US constitution. I do not accept that homosexuality is a fundamental right. As a libertarian-leaning person, I understand the desire to limit the negative effects of the state and so I'm generally tolerant of the decriminalization of homosexuality. As a conservative, I understand the historical push to stamp it out for at least two reasons--increasing reproductive fitness, and staving off sexually-transmitted diseases in pre-scientific populations. Today, we have a political class that is pushing gender non-binary, transgender, etc. stuff when we had 20M able-bodied people out of work. Trump addressed that unemployment problem and is widely loved because of it. Yet, the establishment's latest divide and conquer, push for a universal agreement on things like global warming or deviant sexuality is not universally accepted to the point that they are now losing power. Trump simply trashed the establishment when no establishment politician would do that. Bernie is challenging their myths too. It's interesting that these utterly improbable politicians are the ones with the most grass roots popular support.

Look, I have a lot of lesbians in my family. Why are they lesbians? You could say they are this or that. In the end they prefer having sexual relationships with members of their own sex. I don't think it is my business to tell a woman who wants to have sex with another woman that that is prohibited. The state shouldn't be involved in dictating to others who they want to have sex with. I find it intrusive. Period. If they want to get married because they want legal contracts as you pointed out was something about why the marriage institution was made? It is a legal contract. Let them have it. I don't see it as a problem BJ. Again, let it be. Let people have sex. As a conservative BJ? You are what? You are going to never have sex unless she marries you first? Hmm...how old are you? 52? I don't think you are following a conventional sexual life. I am guessing you said yes to out of wedlock sex and violated some conservative precept. That Ben Shapiro far right man is into "Remain a Virgin til marriage" preacher. So you are unusual in the sense that you are not following convention there? Am I right? You could be a virgin but that is highly unlikely. I wonder why this theme is coming up in my life lately? Curious I must say? Private thought there BJ....ignore it.
The establishment is playing a dangerous game. Think about a $20 bill. It is just a scrap of paper. It is the ultimate myth. It has no intrinsic value. If the establishment keeps pushing radical ideas, people will completely lose faith in the establishment.

But, isn't that what you want to happen with the implosion of the establishment and the demise of the Repuke and Demon party? You sure are getting very very unconventional BJ....curiouser and curiouser as one would say...hmmm. Hombre curioso you are...?

I pointed this out after 9/11--that the establishment more or less had to go to war, because 9/11 showed that the establishment, for all its military spending, did not keep the American people safe. Remember the 2016 presidential debates? Jeb Bush defended his brother saying that George W. Bush kept us safe (after 9/11). Trump took a swipe right back and said that 9/11 happened on his watch--and it was an undeniable truth.

Yes I do remember that. I think all of the 9/11 thing is a complex series of events. Related to many other events. Like chain reactions BJ.

For fun. Remember that I hate Latinos only in your imagination, not in real life.

If you say you don't care about other ethnicities BJ? It only demonstrates a lack of empathy not hatred. Lol. Lack of empathy is about underdeveloped corazon. Which you have. Hatred is about going out and spitting on people, dragging them behind cars and shooting them dead because you hate them. Violence. Lack of empathy about their plight? Lack of corazon. I make a distinction. Not in real life? Does this mean you like me BJ? After all this time of thinking how much you disliked me? I am smiling......You sound like Finfinder...in one way.....can't we be friends? Lol. I debate on here with opposites for the purpose of developing a topic and discussion so people who like to read contrasting opinions get some contrasting opinion. Oh @blackjack21 I think sometimes you fail to realize how bad it sounds when you write things about the Latin American peoples in California. Lol. It sounds so bad. You would think you want to change the name of San Francisco to St Francis to de-latinize it. I am making a joke now BJ. Don't take it seriously.

People adopt technological change quickly, but cultural change very slowly. The internet is a series of very simple stacked protocols. Simplicity scales. IP, TCP/IP, HTTP, FTP, SSH, VoIP, UDP, SMTP, etc. are all very simple. Simplicity scales.

People are not code BJ Relampaguito. We are not exactly computers. We are not living in future world yet where we have someone like a Data from the Star Trek series. Humans are living cells. A bit messy. Feelings, reactions, thoughts, beliefs, psychological states impeding self improvements, bad behaviors, good behaviors, addictions, reactions. Human beings are a trip BJ. Not easy to deal with sometimes. Other times a joy and a wonder...and beautiful in the most intense way imaginable.


It only takes one person to disagree for something to not be universal. You say I'm living in denial, which implicitly acknowledges that universalism is not achieved.

No Relampaguito. You are thinking about what is universal about human beings as a code. Where everything has to make sense, communicate down the most congruent way in order to function. That is not so BJ. Maybe we can delve into this someday with more time? Would you like that Senor?


Well, that's an absurdly abstract assertion. There are a lot of societies with humans there that I haven't visited.

There is nothing abstract about you being able to go somewhere and be recognized as human, with needs, like eating, sleeping, working, recreational activity, tourism, and circulating. You are contributing with your payments for services, with your wanting to see what it is all about. Nothing abstract about it. You are there. In that society. People see your face and think "He is a human. He wants something. How do we cope. Where is the plan to cope." I think you are puzzled why I even mention it? Are you puzzled?

I was on vacation.

Why did you choose that destination. I am sincerely curious? Why?


Again, that's absurdly abstract. The reason they were imported is because in the climate of the Caribbean and American South, Northern Europeans died at high rates quickly from exposure to the elements, but blacks died at much lower rates in the same environment. There was a compelling incentive; otherwise, it wouldn't have been done.

Let us take this step by step. Indians had low immunity from smallpox, and other diseases common in the European continent. This is easy to understand. Drlee is a doctor and in communities that never had exposure to certain diseases they can be very very deadly. African and Europeans had been in contact with each other for many centuries by then. Of course a lot of them died in the voyage. Due to unsanitary conditions. Also suicide. They would throw themselves off the ships. They are human of course. And they can do the work of humans. Thus the reason for selling them. Productivity value.

Again, abstraction is controlled ignorance--it's meant to find commonalities, not to render out relevant distinctions.

This is an inherent contradiction BJ. You need to clarify this well. Will you do that for me?If you don't elaborate on this one BJ? I am going to pull a salsa dance number on this and we are going to rumble? abstraction is controlled ignorance? I think you have been writing too many coding lines and forgot that human beings do indeed have commonalities that are quite concrete. Do I have to mention them?

I'm saying that entropy increases--disorganization. The tendency is that organization will not materialize in a universal sense; it's safer to bet against universalism or everyone in a single class organizing around the world.

I am not about betting against BJ. When has pushing for equality against systems that are completely dependent on inequality to be stable? Ever been safe to advocate for? Life is risk with change. I learned that long ago Relampaguito. Risk is an absolutely necessary element in order to get a needed societal or economic change to occur. That is something you seem to think is not part of life. Crisis...the Chinese again say it translates into CRISIS+DANGER and OPPORTUNITY. Risk Senor Relampaguito. The essentials to fight for human rights, and human dignity and human progress. Can't stay the same, and to stay the same? For the same group of people to remain in the same positions of power? You got to take risks mi hombre. It is the only way! Change is not about comfort levels, it has never been about people feeling comfortable? Remember I wrote to you about having to be fearless? That is true. You got to push the envelope of systems that are dysfunctional. If everything is ok in the USA? No one would be this furious with the status quo establishment? I go by the premise of? Equality is not something the systems in place are going to be about BJ. Not the Right thought politics people. Equality is not their bread and butter hombre. It never has been! Everyone just accept things as they are. Ay BJ, this world is about transformation. Change, and constant movement forward. You got the cycles of human life there: baby, toddler, child, pre teen, teen, young adult, full adult, middle age, and very old age. Expiring. We are in a movement towards our own demise. Changing everday. So is the law of all living things here BJ. Change. Trying to keep things static or trying to keep order in a universe where some physicists say that chaos is where we originate from and as we are cycled through many steps and possibilities order emerges. For me? Human societies are disorganized yes, but they can be organized around certain truths. For me equality is one of them BJ. What are class systems but roles that we adopt as actors in a play? I play the role of king? Of queen? Of page? Of commoner? People wear masks all day in society. But is the mask us? Or are we more than the role that is assigned to us? I happen to think the role a class based society says we are? Is not the entire story ever BJ. Humans are a product of many things...many influences, and many possibilities. To limit ourselves because we say and accept....I have to not strive for what is possible? It goes against everything the human race has accomplished in history BJ. Humanity is about more than that. It always has been.
They did it to pay less to Mexican workers than they were paying to American workers. It is a labor arbitrage.

It is exploitation BJ. Someone wanting to get a human to work for less than another human so they can profit and gain something from the ones with less power over either property, investment or position. It is that simple. Should people accept without any conflict their situations and never strive for betterment of conditions? I don't think so.
MLK's son and his niece are both Trump supporters.


Whoever said human families agree on politics BJ? Don't you have liberals in your family?

Lol. ;)
#15070233
annatar1914 wrote:No, your whole statement then and now is irrelevant. Hitler =/= Mao, and Hitler is the one that Trump is apparently interested in, not Mao. I know you like relating conversations to China as a means to knock your country's government at every opportunity, so that's why I reminded you that not everything has to revolve around the Middle Kingdom.


This is an assumption which is not true to a level that it becomes prejudice.

I simply did not think that deep. I just thought if it's found that Trump had someone opposite as reference, then his apparent storage of Hitler quote would not be a problem.
Last edited by Patrickov on 27 Feb 2020 02:27, edited 2 times in total.
#15070273
Looks like Joe Biden will win South Carolina.

Clyburn Endorses Joe Biden
February 26, 2020

Rep. Jim Clyburn (D-SC) endorsed Joe Biden in the Democratic presidential race, which could give the former vice president a much-needed boost in the South Carolina primary race.

Said Clyburn: “I know Joe Biden. I know his character, his heart, and his record. Joe Biden has stood for the hard-working people of South Carolina. We know Joe. But more importantly, he know us. In South Carolina, we choose presidents. I’m calling on you to stand with Joe Biden.”

https://politicalwire.com/2020/02/26/cl ... joe-biden/
#15070277
Hindsite wrote:Looks like Joe Biden will win South Carolina.

Clyburn Endorses Joe Biden
February 26, 2020

Rep. Jim Clyburn (D-SC) endorsed Joe Biden in the Democratic presidential race, which could give the former vice president a much-needed boost in the South Carolina primary race.

Said Clyburn: “I know Joe Biden. I know his character, his heart, and his record. Joe Biden has stood for the hard-working people of South Carolina. We know Joe. But more importantly, he know us. In South Carolina, we choose presidents. I’m calling on you to stand with Joe Biden.”

https://politicalwire.com/2020/02/26/cl ... joe-biden/


They will vote for him out of pity more than anything.
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