China's Wuhan shuts down transport as global alarm mounts over virus spread - Page 37 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Provision of the two UN HDI indicators other than GNP.
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#15070770
foxdemon wrote:Communists are like ambulance chasing lawyers, they exist to take advantage of other peoples’ misfortunes.


It's more of an accurate description of neoliberals who enrich themselves from social disintegration.
#15070771
So far, among countries with sizable numbers of infections, Singapore and Hong Kong have managed best by being very proactive from the beginning. China and Korea did also aggressively fight the outbreak by testing and quarantining.

Iran is by far the worst. The official figures are obviously bogus. There are probably hundreds of deaths and tens of thousands of infections. The authorities don't seem to put much effort into containing the outbreak either. Iran is going to infect the whole of the ME.

Italy is a total shock. There was an outbreak with anomalous pneumonia cases in early January which was diagnosed as influenza. Even though the Chinese informed the WHO on Dec. 30th about a new virus and communicated the genetic code on Jan. 11th., the Italians continued to treat their virus outbreak as influenza until Feb. 20th, when people started to die. According to La Republica, genetic analysis shows that it was the coronavirus.

"Polmoniti anomale a metà gennaio, così è nato il focolaio di Codogno”

Coronavirus: inquiry opens into hospitals at centre of Italy outbreak

Italian prosecutors have opened an investigation into the procedures adopted by hospitals in the Lombardy region at the centre of Europe’s coronavirus epidemic, amid reports doctors initially delayed testing an Italian “super-spreader”, allowing the disease to proliferate rapidly including beyond the country’s borders.


New Strain of Coronavirus Behind Lung Infections in China

On Dec. 31, 2019, the World Health Organization (WHO) country office in China was informed of 27 patients with pneumonia of unclear cause in Wuhan — a metropolis with 19 million inhabitants in Hubei province.


The Italian Wuhan is the city of Codogna which has the sorry reputation of still honoring Mussolini as a citizen of honor.

As if that wasn't bad enough, they now decided to reduce testing so as not to test contact persons without symptoms, which will let the virus spread out of control. There are now more than 20 countries that can trace infections back to Italy. Their aim is obviously to keep the number of infections down so as not to hurt the tourist industry. Any short-time gain will be wiped out when the virus gets out of control. They seem to speculate that figures for other countries will increase first. The US has already upgraded the travel warning for Italy to level 3.

They also decide that patients are cured a week after the diagnoses even though experience shows that it takes much longer.

China has taken a lot of criticism, but when the dust settles many countries will look much worse than China.
#15070772
I'm impressed more than anything with the collective cooperation and mutual-aid of the Chinese citizenry in dealing with the situation, including sharing personal information such as internal body temperature in order to put other people at ease. It's going to be chaos if the situation in the West deteriorates.
#15070777
The death toll in the US is going to be staggering.

We don't even have any test kits.

We are testing virtually nobody.

The government is completely disengaged and not likely to engage any time soon. The CDC is behaving disgracefully. They will let thousands and perhaps millions of people die because they are afraid to cross the Republicans. Why don't I blame Trump? Because he is serving at the pleasure of Mitch McConnell and the Republican Party. They can control him but they will not do it.

Most people will spend this weekend ignoring this problem.

If I had to guess...and I don't say this lightly.....If the US gets by with a mere 200,000 dead within the year, we will be lucky.

How can this be happening? How can my Republican Party let this happen?

When does it become murder?

Why is it that people like me, with no help and support from the government at all are the only ones on the front lines?

Rancid. Before you write Ted Cruz a nasty letter let me ask you this. Seriously. If your wife was a nurse in the ER, would you let her go to work in the morning? I will tell you that I would not let my wife do it.

Before you write to Ted Cruz expressing your outrage I want you to consider that today a school employee in Oregon has had the virus and been on the job for 14 days.

I lived through the Vietnam war era so being disgusted with government is not new to me but this criminal negligence is beyond imagination.

Write to your senators Rancid. Do it today. The lives of your wife and children literally depend on it. And trust me. The Trumpets out there are just not smart enough to do it for you.
#15070781
Drlee, will you be supporting Senator Sanders if he wins the Democratic Party nomination?


I most certainly will.

I have been a fan of universal single payer health care for a long time. I am a community health guy who works with the homeless and the poor. For me it is a no brainer

For what we currently spend on health care we could cover everyone in America 100% for medical and dental and give them limousine rides to the doctor.

Can Bernie win? Before this pandemic and the totally predictable stock market crash I did not think so. We will see. I do not want anyone elected over someone else's dead body but that may well be what happens. The republicans under Mitch McConnell's leadership cannot deal with the crisis. It may turn the tide.
#15070782
Donna wrote:Drlee, will you be supporting Senator Sanders if he wins the Democratic Party nomination?



So address a lack of political accountability with communism? Well, authoritarianism is long known for its accountability, not.

What about bread. What will you do when America’s socialist economy fails to produce enough bread? Wait, why not impose censorship, claim there is no bread shortage and make anyone who exposes the truth ‘disappear’.


I think any other option would be preferable. It is a shame the democrats can’t get a liberal alternative going. Gabbard and Yang show promise. But the US, and indeed all western countries, have a problem with their elite class. Basically there are too many of them.

Unis have churned out large numbers of unproductive elites through humanity and arts degrees for the last few decades. There is really a need for only a few humanities professionals in a society. These would ideally be only the most talented. Instead we have heaps of not in anyway talented people trained in humanities, who are now basically unproductive elites, holding high expectations of what they are entitled too, but being dependent of the shared surplus of productive people’s labours. Most are upper middle class kids who are rally just trying to substitute the state for mum and dad’s purse.

These surplus elites, due to their teaming numbers, must compete amongst themselves and with the rest of society to lay their claim to a portion of the surplus. One method is to support a socialist politician who proposes to redistribute wealth away from the productive people and to these unproductive tertiary educated elites.

In truth, it would be better if a stern politician forced these arts degree uni students to learn productive skills, like plumbing or welding. Possibly they could learn to code?

Can you code, @Donna ? Hmm? :eh:
#15070786
Drlee wrote:I most certainly will.

I have been a fan of universal single payer health care for a long time. I am a community health guy who works with the homeless and the poor. For me it is a no brainer

For what we currently spend on health care we could cover everyone in America 100% for medical and dental and give them limousine rides to the doctor.

Can Bernie win? Before this pandemic and the totally predictable stock market crash I did not think so. We will see. I do not want anyone elected over someone else's dead body but that may well be what happens. The republicans under Mitch McConnell's leadership cannot deal with the crisis. It may turn the tide.


My fear is that it will become a Dolchstoßlegende for the right-wing rabble, but I think you need to look at it like this: a very serious recession has been on the visible horizon for some time now (since the yield curve inversion last year), so it's better if it happens before November and especially before Bernie is nominated by the party (although the time metric is two full fiscal quarters, a recession could be obvious by July at the start of Q3). The last thing we need is for Bernie to inherit the Obama-Trump economy and be blamed for the downturn.
#15070787
Drlee wrote:Bernie is not a socialist in any real sense. Even if he was, he would not have the power to impose socialism even with control of the house and the senate to boot.



Hmm, let me see...involved in communism in the 1970’s, visiting the USSR, praising Fido Castro, etc. He is about as socialist as one can get. His supporters are even worse, describing gulags as a necessary response to reactionaries. Sure sounds like communism to me.


The US can not afford more debt. Trump is bad enough with his spending increases and tax cuts. Obama was shocking at driving up debt, mainly with large welfare programs. Bernie will be a complete disaster.



But you have to see the big picture.

The problem of the West is it’s own success. The golden years were to early to mid 20th century. Back then getting everyone better educated seemed like a good idea. Wealth was abundant and wasteful spending like arts degrees, didn’t look like a problem.

Socio economic inequality has since been constantly rising since the 1970’s in the West. This has been a period of decline which all empires go through. The elites become more competitive as they fight over a bigger share of the pie for themselves. This drives political instability as ruthless people undermine old standards of conduct and thus credibility of institutions.

The tea party, Trump and his base didn’t just come out of nowhere. They are a popular response to this declining political order and the increased competition. So is the fracturing of the DNC internal consensus and the hard left’s increase in influence.

The hard left appeals to the legions of middle class kids, trained to be useless but harbouring great expectations for themselves. They are clever at debate and can reason why they deserve a slice of the cake someone else created. But ultimately, they are completely useless and will only be able to maintain their hold on resources through power. Authoritarian ideologies using claims of unjust distribution, suit perfectly the agenda their lack of ability dictates them to follow.


As I said, this is common to all western countries, not just the USA. The final stage in an empire’s decline is when the state is bankrupt and can’t pay soldiers and police. That is when the factions of elites can fight without obstruction from the state. The thing for western countries to avoid is bankrupting their state. Otherwise those nations will sink into internal instability.


Still, it doesn’t always work out like that. The 13th century Muslims got conquered by the Mongols before they would have collapsed if left to themselves. So conquest by barbarians is another viable solution. Note that this in effect solved the excess elite issue the Muslim empire of the day had. The Mongols replaced the elites with themselves and forcefully suppressed the educated but unproductive class.

Western nations are in trouble. They are approaching the end of the decline phase in the life cycle of empires. More of the same sort of affluent society solutions that got western nations to this point will not work in getting them out.


Anyway, I wouldn’t vote for Sanders. He will bankrupt the state faster than anyone else. Then the political class will fracture and fight each other while the state is broke and powerless to stop them. If you must vote democrat, Bloomberg would appear to be a better choice. He has the sort of discipline the left really needs. He is nasty enough, and finally prudent enough, to be willing to forcefully suppress @Donna and his unproductive buddies, in the same fashion as the Mongols. But Bernie? No way! He would be the final nail for America.
#15070789
foxdemon wrote:So address a lack of political accountability with communism? Well, authoritarianism is long known for its accountability, not.


Why does communism lack accountability?

What about bread. What will you do when America’s socialist economy fails to produce enough bread? Wait, why not impose censorship, claim there is no bread shortage and make anyone who exposes the truth ‘disappear’.


Why would the economy fail to produce enough bread (for whom?)..?


I think any other option would be preferable. It is a shame the democrats can’t get a liberal alternative going. Gabbard and Yang show promise. But the US, and indeed all western countries, have a problem with their elite class. Basically there are too many of them.


I'm sorry that liberalism is in ill-repute, but there are good reasons for it.

Unis have churned out large numbers of unproductive elites through humanity and arts degrees for the last few decades.


Not really. The elite consist of people who went to ivy league institutions in America or Britain and studied law, business, computer science, engineering, etc.

The kind of people who study fields in the humanities tend to do so at public or subsidized institutions and are generally underpaid through out the course of their academic careers due to the scarce funding these departments receive. Remember PoFo's own Immortal Goon? Classic example. He was working something like three different jobs. If you think these people are part of the "elite" you're out of your mind.

There is really a need for only a few humanities professionals in a society. These would ideally be only the most talented. Instead we have heaps of not in anyway talented people trained in humanities, who are now basically unproductive elites, holding high expectations of what they are entitled too, but being dependent of the shared surplus of productive people’s labours. Most are upper middle class kids who are rally just trying to substitute the state for mum and dad’s purse.


I don't understand who you're talking about. It's actually pretty common these days to be hired in a practical field outside of an area of specialization that is less practical, largely because businesses and other firms are actively trying to recruit generalists.

These surplus elites, due to their teaming numbers, must compete amongst themselves and with the rest of society to lay their claim to a portion of the surplus. One method is to support a socialist politician who proposes to redistribute wealth away from the productive people and to these unproductive tertiary educated elites.


There's just way too much to unpack here. It's just fundamentally the opposite of what really exists. This is quite an interesting dimension of reactionary thought in the 21st century though, that it farcically proclaims that the sky is green out of spite.

In truth, it would be better if a stern politician forced these arts degree uni students to learn productive skills, like plumbing or welding. Possibly they could learn to code?


Sounds like you're the one who is craving this father figure that the students supposedly need.

Can you code, @Donna ? Hmm? :eh:


My field is relevant to the data economy, but of course, it's probably exposed to a greater risk of technological unemployment than plumbing or welding.

Do you read social theory, foxdemon?
#15070791
foxdemon wrote:Anyway, I wouldn’t vote for Sanders. He will bankrupt the state faster than anyone else. Then the political class will fracture and fight each other while the state is broke and powerless to stop them. If you must vote democrat, Bloomberg would appear to be a better choice. He has the sort of discipline the left really needs. He is nasty enough, and finally prudent enough, to be willing to forcefully suppress @Donna and his unproductive buddies, in the same fashion as the Mongols. But Bernie? No way! He would be the final nail for America.


It is really like how Comrade Ocasio-Cortez put it, in any country other than the United States, Bernie Sanders and moderate Democrats would not be in the same political party. Bloomberg is anathema to the left, to the commons, to the working class, to civil society. I don't think you understand what is happening to the Democratic Party right now.
#15070810
Donna wrote:It is really like how Comrade Ocasio-Cortez put it, in any country other than the United States, Bernie Sanders and moderate Democrats would not be in the same political party. Bloomberg is anathema to the left, to the commons, to the working class, to civil society. I don't think you understand what is happening to the Democratic Party right now.

Comrade Ocasio-Cortez is slightly more intelligent than an idiot, but I agree with her on that one. Comrade Bernie Sanders has ideas that border on communism and he even admits he believes in socialism by calling himself a Democratic Socialist and usually runs as an Independent instead of a Democrat.

Any rational thinking person knows that socialism and communism takes away individual freedom as more and more power is given to the government. When government is not controlling markets, then there is economic freedom to be involved in an array of entrepreneurial activities. Capitalism has led to a great deal of political freedom, because once we limit the role of government in economics, we limit the scope of government in other areas. It is no accident that most of the countries with the greatest political freedom usually have a great deal of economic freedom. Capitalism is a system in which bad people can do the least harm and good people have the freedom to do good works.
#15070812
Hindsite wrote:Comrade Ocasio-Cortez is slightly more intelligent than an idiot, but I agree with her on that one. Comrade Bernie Sanders has ideas that border on communism and he even admits he believes in socialism by calling himself a Democratic Socialist and usually runs as an Independent instead of a Democrat.

Any rational thinking person knows that socialism and communism takes away individual freedom as more and more power is given to the government. When government is not controlling markets, then there is economic freedom to be involved in an array of entrepreneurial activities. Capitalism has led to a great deal of political freedom, because once we limit the role of government in economics, we limit the scope of government in other areas. It is no accident that most of the countries with the greatest political freedom usually have a great deal of economic freedom. Capitalism is a system in which bad people can do the least harm and good people have the freedom to do good works.


Capitalism was outrageously dramatic and painful and fun while it lasted, but it's over man. The 200 year-old system is beginning to grind to a halt and has become an existential threat to the human species. It's time to rethink the whole system. It's time for a radical commons. It's time for a new communism.
#15070814
Donna wrote:Capitalism was outrageously dramatic and painful and fun while it lasted, but it's over man. The 200 year-old system is beginning to grind to a halt and has become an existential threat to the human species. It's time to rethink the whole system. It's time for a radical commons. It's time for a new communism.

Capitalism, in various forms, has been in existence from the time that the first humans in society took dominion over the land and the animals as commanded by God in the Holy Bible. Farming and ranching are the first forms of capitalism as an economic system.
#15070824
foxdemon wrote:One method is to support a socialist politician who proposes to redistribute wealth away from the productive people and to these unproductive tertiary educated elites.

In truth, it would be better if a stern politician forced these arts degree uni students to learn productive skills, like plumbing or welding.


The problem is that both the US and the UK have changed into services-based economy and transferred much of their manufacturing to the extended workbench in the Far East. Thus, the "productive people" are sitting in China and not the US. That's why both of your approaches are bound to fail.

More than 90% of technological innovation is in manufacturing. By offshoring manufacturing, service-based economies have also offshored innovation. It would take a lot of hard work and determination to reverse that. I have lived and worked in the Far East and know the efforts these countries have made to catch up. Believe me, people in the West don't have the stamina to do that.
#15070825
Atlantis wrote:The problem is that both the US and the UK have changed into services-based economy and transferred much of their manufacturing to the extended workbench in the Far East. Thus, the "productive people" are sitting in China and not the US. That's why both of your approaches are bound to fail.

More than 90% of technological innovation is in manufacturing. By offshoring manufacturing, service-based economies have also offshored innovation. It would take a lot of hard work and determination to reverse that. I have lived and worked in the Far East and know the efforts these countries have made to catch up. Believe me, people in the West don't have the stamina to do that.

That is one reason why the Trump of God was elected to change the course of the American economy. As he said, he has kept more promises than he made.
HalleluYah
#15070827
The WHO has published its report on the coronavirus outbreak in China:

Report of the WHO-China Joint Mission on Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)

This passage clarifies the route of transmission:

COVID-19 is transmitted via droplets and fomites during close unprotected contact between an infector and infectee. Airborne spread has not been reported for COVID-19 and it is not believed to be a major driver of transmission based on available evidence; however, it can be envisaged if certain aerosol-generating procedures are conducted in health care facilities.

Fecal shedding has been demonstrated from some patients, and viable virus has been identified in a limited number of case reports. However, the fecal-oral route does not appear to be a driver of COVID-19 transmission; its role and significance for COVID-19 remains to be determined. Viral shedding is discussed in the Technical Findings (Annex C).


So, airborne or aerosol transmission are not entirely excluded, but the primary route of transmission is by droplets or fomites in the context of close and extended contact. This is a relief because it means you can avoid infection if you take reasonable protection methods.

Don't let people telling you that face masks are useless fool you. People in the West have an inborn aversion to wearing face masks and will size on anything to justify their aversion. Face masks are very effective against droplet infection.

@Hindsite, you didn't understand the significance of what I said.
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