Closed societies are a threat to global public health - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15076291
SolarCross wrote:The US is an open society par excellence and so is a lot of europe now too.


Europe and UK have a lot of retrograde speech laws. The UK even has reporting bans for court cases.
#15076300
Rancid wrote::lol:

You have now gone full Alex Jones on us. :lol:


It's worse than that, she's uncritically parroting the propaganda of a fascist empire. :knife: Say what you will about Jones, at least he adheres to his own principles and consistently opposes all tyranny regardless of where it's coming from.
#15076325
Zionist Nationalist wrote:China must pay for this it cannot go on without a proper response they have fucked up the entire world
hit them where it hurts take business away from China


:lol:

Sorry but the global capitalist system is dependent on China and that isn't going to change anytime soon.

Don't like it? Maybe the West shouldn't have been drastically altering human societies for the past 200 years.
#15076339
Donna wrote:Sorry but the global capitalist system is dependent on China and that isn't going to change anytime soon.

No it is not. Nixon invited the Chinese into the mainstream of civilisation to split up the commie camp. His overture became over the years an attempt to civilise them to the modern ways of liberal democracy or at least normal economics. The learned the economics but failed on the main lesson. They can go back to being enemies and we will be fine. If we shut the door in their faces how long before they go back to killing half their population making their "great leap forwards"?

Donna wrote:Don't like it? Maybe the West shouldn't have been drastically altering human societies for the past 200 years.

The west (and the east) have been drastically altering human societies since the invention of fire. The whigs called that progress. Apparently your progress is staying in hunter-gatherer economics.
#15076391
An open society is one with freedom of speech, freedom of association and freedom of press.

China is a closed society that punishes doctors for warning others about deadly diseases, that punishes journalists for exposing corruption and punishes lawyers for upholding the constitution.
#15076393
AFAIK wrote:The Soviet Union gave us Chenobyl, modern China, Corona.

The authorities are trying to boast about how great they are- building a hospital in a week even though the army could have set up a field hospital in a day. Locking down large cities to prevent the spread of the disease after allowing the disease to take hold by locking down the doctors who tried to warn us about it.

They tried to scapegoat the local leaders but replaced them with a tone death party loyalist who wants to teach people to give praise to Xi Jinping. It didn't occur to him that maybe now is the time for humility and reflection.

The Chinese may be willing to put up with the CCP. That doesn't mean the rest of us should.


The title of this thread and this post is very interesting.

I had always thought of "Open" and "Closed" societies actually in a sociological context, and I felt that this was most applicable when talking about the early 20th century attitudes and traditions even in the West versus the post WWII culture in the West.

I think that this is not entirely wrong, and neither is the OP...

The French philosopher Henri Bergson coined the term open society in 1932.[1][2] The idea was further developed during World War II by the Austrian-born British philosopher Karl Popper.[3][4]

Bergson describes a closed society as a closed system of law or religion. It is static, like a closed mind.[5] Bergson suggests that if all traces of civilization were to disappear, the instincts of the closed society for including or excluding others would remain.[6] In contrast, an open society is dynamic and inclined to moral universalism.[5]

Popper saw the open society as part of a historical continuum reaching from the organic, tribal, or closed society, through the open society - marked by a critical attitude to tradition - to the abstract or depersonalized society lacking all face-to-face interaction transactions.[7]

In open societies, the government is expected[by whom?] to be responsive and tolerant, and its political mechanisms transparent and flexible. It can be characterized[by whom?] as opposed to authoritarianism.[citation needed]


Wikipedia

I think from the perspective of China as a closed society in terms of it not being transparent and beign authoritarian, it makes sense, but in another sense, China is open...

As Dugin analyzed it, there is the modern (western liberalism), and then the hypermodern (Communism), and all of the third position movements were alternative modernities. Communism provides a great criticism of tradition, of religion, and also promotes the collective synthesis into a single modern culture...

Which, in a sense, makes it a moral universalist society, and one that fills the demands of what Karl Popper is suggesting here concerning no longer believing in magical thinking, desiring its members to have degrees of anonymity, literacy, etc., and moreover, the Chinese government and people are very humanitarian conscious. Every major corporation has some interface with humanitarian outreach.

It just simply isn't democratic.

The characteristics of the "open society" versus the "closed society" do not really match up with the expected governmental results.

I guess it is just more proof that Popper and other thinkers from that time were very far from hitting the mark and seem even shortsighted in their analysis.

I'd shy away from using the words -- except to criticize these guys.
#15076697
Unthinking Majority wrote:Not unless I buy them in China.

BSE is from Britain, bird flu SE Asia. The USA has regular outbreaks of Salmonella and other diseases. That's why businesses want to make it illegal for activists and journalists to film their operations. Too many product recalls when the public sees what's inside.
#15076717
SolarCross wrote:The west (and the east) have been drastically altering human societies since the invention of fire. The whigs called that progress. Apparently your progress is staying in hunter-gatherer economics.


Plus those societies were in desperate need of alteration. They were primitive, hierarchical, exploitative, and violent as fuck. They only differed from the West in scale. Nothing really absolves the West of failing to live up to the standard of decency but human beings are a nightmare the world over so life was gonna be ugly brutish and short for those people regardless. There are no victims in history.
#15076720
Sivad wrote:Plus those societies were in desperate need of alteration. They were primitive, hierarchical, exploitative, and violent as fuck. They only differed from the West in scale. Nothing really absolves the West of failing to live up to the standard of decendy but human beings are a nightmare the world over so life was gonna be ugly brutish and short for those people regardless. There are no victims in history.

This is where we differ philosophically I guess. You are setting an ideal standard for nature to reach and then feeling miserable when nature forever fails to meet it (and why would nature even try?). Myself I say nature is just fine as it is but we can do better if we want. For me everything is a win, and so I am never disappointed and always happy. Idealism vs Pragmatism.

I think if there is a real difference between the left sentiment and right sentiment it is in the split between Idealism and Pragmatism. Certainly the good leftists are all idealists and honestly I think they just got into socialism because they miss being Christians and they seem to project onto socialism their own pseudo-secular Christian ideals. Maybe the kindest thing to do for them is let them be Christians again. Christians seem to be happier and better adjusted people than socialists. Does it really matter whether the bible is the literal word of god or whether creationism is good science if it makes the idealists happy and secure that all their fussing over the poor will be rewarded in heaven?
#15076803
AFAIK wrote:BSE is from Britain, bird flu SE Asia. The USA has regular outbreaks of Salmonella and other diseases. That's why businesses want to make it illegal for activists and journalists to film their operations. Too many product recalls when the public sees what's inside.


Still fewer pandemics coming from the West. We don't eat bats from unsanitary wet food markets.
#15078282
The new Cold War with China has cost lives against coronavirus
More than any event since the financial crash, the coronavirus pandemic has exposed the rotten foundation of American empire.

March 19, 2020, was a milestone for the People’s Republic of China. After enduring over two months of an epidemic of novel coronavirus, China reported that it experienced its first day without a new case of locally transmitted infection. After placing 46 million residents in Wuhan and 15 other cities under quarantine, mobilizing thousands of medical professionals to the front lines, building new hospitals practically overnight, and implementing cautionary measures such as forcing banks to disinfect cash, the country turned a corner in what its premier, Xi Jingping, called “the People’s War.”

Throughout the crisis, leaders of the World Health Organization (WHO) heaped praise on the Chinese government. “Its actions actually helped prevent the spread of coronavirus to other countries,” said WHO Director-General Dr. Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus. Tedros, as he is known, added that he was “very impressed and encouraged by the president [Xi’s] detailed knowledge of the outbreak.”

Tedros’s assistant, Dr. Bruce Aylward, who also visited China, was astounded by what he observed: “What I saw was a tremendous sense of responsibility, and of duty, to protect their families, their communities, and even the world, from this disease,” Aylward marveled in a televised interview. “I left with such a deep sense of admiration for the people of Wuhan and for Chinese society in general.”

During the early days of the crisis around Wuhan, Chinese authorities took some ham-fisted measures to suppress public discussion of the outbreak. Perhaps Beijing was in denial about the gravity of the epidemic, or terrified of its societal ramifications. It was not long, however, before the Chinese government made the genome of the virus public, shared detailed information about the virus with the international community, and provided intelligence to the WHO, which relayed it to the U.S. Center for Disease Control (CDC). In fact, Health and Human Services Director Alex Azar recently revealed that the CDC first learned about coronavirus from Chinese colleagues on January 3. Tragically, while Beijing was buying valuable time for the West to prepare for the lethal pandemic, and losing the lives of medical personnel in the process, Washington chose conflict over cooperation.

Almost as soon as news of the viral outbreak reached the West, mainstream pundits turned up their noses and sneered at China’s aggressive response. A now-discredited January 24 op-ed published in Slate and authored in conjunction with the Democratic Party-affiliated New America Foundation proclaimed, “Many of China’s actions to date are overly aggressive and ineffective in quelling the outbreak.” The Los Angeles Times reinforced the condescending line, mocking President Xi’s efforts to rally Chinese citizens as “shoddy propaganda.” At around the same time, the cover of the neoliberal Economist magazine depicted China as a global disease infecting the planet—an authoritarian plague that threatened the free world more than any pandemic.

For his part, Trump has referred to the sickness as the “China virus,” deploying xenophobic bile to deflect blame for weeks of inaction. (“We have it totally under control,” the president insisted on January 22, trying in vain to calm markets. A month later, Trump claimed without evidence, “The people that have [coronavirus] are getting better.”) By March 14, as coronavirus exploded throughout New York City and Seattle, Joseph Biden took to the stage of a Democratic presidential debate and painted the sickness as a foreign weapon of mass destruction. “This is like we are being attacked from abroad!” he bellowed. CNN debate moderator Dana Bash proceeded to push the candidates to propose “consequences” China should face for the coronavirus–not lessons the U.S. could learn from China’s successful fight against it.

In reflexive and mostly bipartisan fashion, the U.S. political class has exploited a pandemic to ratchet up hostility against China. While the rising power is a necessary partner against a gathering storm of disease and societal unraveling, too many in Washington are unable to see Beijing as anything other than the greatest single threat to American global hegemony.

Over the past seven decades, the U.S. has encircled China with hundreds of military bases,threading bombers, naval warships, and nuclear-tipped missiles into a geopolitical noose. President Barack Obama’s “pivot to Asia” designated a full two-thirds of U.S. naval forces to contain China, setting the stage for a new Cold War. Trump’s national defense doctrine formally enshrined the strategy by declaring “great power competition” with Beijing and Moscow as the Pentagon’s top priority. A trade war followed, with the U.S. jailing a CEO of the Chinese telecom company Huawei, banning its 5G technology, and slapping hefty tariffs on $112 billion on Chinese imports. Dubiously sourced stories of Holocaust-level human rights violations by China supplied the new Cold War with heartstring-tugging background music, drawing suggestible Western liberals into the hostile narrative.

The same U.S. leadership class that launched the first Cold War and reignited it during the Obama and Trump eras has also presided over a systematic degradation of America’s public health system. While the task of providing health care was handed over to corporations, the number of beds per 1,000 Americans declined steadily from 4.5 in 1975 to 2.5 in 2014, according to the CDC. Having left its citizens on the verge of mass suffocation by a ghastly respiratory infection, the U.S. government has little to offer them today beyond Cold War bluster and corporate bailouts.

More than any event since the 2008-09 financial crash, the coronavirus pandemic has exposed the rotten foundation of American empire—and it has only begun to exact its toll. By March 19, the day that China declared victory over coronavirus, the U.S. achieved a milestone of its own: it boasted the sharpest increase in deaths and new infections per day of any country in the world. New York City had become ground zero for the sickness, with 10,000 new cases. At one Brooklyn emergency hospital, a doctor melted down over the lack of resources. “It’s a disaster,” he fretted. “We just had a half dozen staff test positive. We have 17 ventilators left in the institution. Some staff can't come because they’re getting wiped out.”

In hospitals across the country, emergency room doctors have been forced to fashion their own masks, or to simply wear a bandana over their faces. Doctors badly needed N95 air-filtering respirator masks to protect themselves from infection while they treated patients hacking up toxic sputum. The Trump administration has invoked the Defense Production Act, a Korean War-era provision that would enable him to compel American businesses to produce urgently needed products. Revealingly, Trump has refused to implement the act on the grounds that doing so would mimic Venezuelan-style socialism.

While doctors wait in vain for N95 masks, a bipartisan group of 130 lawmakers made their real priorities clear when they issued a call for a massive buildup of F-35 jets. “Full funding is needed for the delivery of new weapons and critical capabilities necessary to keep the F-35 ahead of our adversaries,” the lawmakers wrote in a March 19 letter to the Pentagon, demanding 98 new stealth fighters at a cost of $94 million each.

If anything has been more elusive than protective masks—and less functional than the accident-prone F-35—it is America’s coronavirus testing system. Testing kits were magically provided to entire NBA teams and A-list celebrities with symptoms, but ask any average American in need where they plan to get screened, and you’re almost certain to draw a blank. As Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, confessed in testimony to Congress,“The idea of anybody getting [tested] easily the way people in other countries are doing it, we are not set up for that. Do I think we should be? Yes. But we are not.”

Inside China, an already effective coronavirus screening regimen is likely to improve thanks to an innovative test that can be administered in airports, and that produces results in just 40 minutes. The creator of the groundbreaking test, Weihong Tan, was a professor at the University of Florida’s cancer research lab until last year, when the Department of Justice targeted him with a McCarthy-style investigation. Accused by a Cold War-crazed U.S. government of failing to disclose Chinese funding for his department, he returned to Hunan University, where he found ample government support for his lifesaving research.

With its hollowed out public health-care system overwhelmed by a pandemic in just its early phase, the U.S. has sat and watched as China embarks on the largest international humanitarian mission in modern times. European Commission president Ursula von der Leyen has effusively thanked China for donating two million surgical masks, 200,000 N95 masks, and 50,000 testing kits to hard-hit areas of Europe. After welcoming a massive delivery of Chinese aid to his country, Serbian President Aleksandar Vucic angrily accused the EU of abandonment: "European solidarity does not exist. That was a fairytale. The only country that can help us in this hard situation is the People's Republic of China. For the rest of them, thanks for nothing."

In response to China’s humanitarian crusade, the Trump administration’s National Security Council has rolled out a coordinated propaganda offensive blaming China for “covering up” coronavirus. Ironically, the same corporate networks that have spent the past year clamoring for Trump’s impeachment have provided the White House with an eager megaphone for its anti-China crusade. A report by CNN, for instance, suggested dark motives behind China’s delivery of ventilators and masks to Europe, claiming Beijing was “possibly trying to curry favor.” On Twitter, trending hashtags like #ChinaLiedAndPeopleDied have suddenly materialized, amplifying the Trump administration’s influence operation.

While China and the tiny, U.S.-embargoed nation of Cuba send medical brigades to hard-hit regions of Europe, Washington is sending the world sanctions and shows of military force. The Trump administration has zealously weaponized coronavirus to drive its “maximum pressure” policy of regime change against Iran, where the death toll is approaching 2,000. During a March 18 press conference, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo vowed to ramp up crushing sanctions on Iran, even though (or perhaps because) the economic blockade was preventing the country from purchasing vital medicine and ventilators. In Venezuela, meanwhile, U.S. sanctions have increased the cost of a coronavirus test to three times more than in non-sanctioned countries.

Those who find Trump’s actions at home and abroad deadly and dangerous must take heart that his opponents in the Democratic Party have united behind Biden, who seems to forget where he is at times. One of the 76-year-old former vice president’s most recent public appearances saw him in a makeshift studio in his Delaware home, staring off into the distance in a stupor, seemingly frozen in confusion, until his wife shuffled him off camera. Dogged by rumors of dementia following a comically stumbling performance on the presidential trail, where his shell of a campaign has been sustained by some 60 faceless billionaires, Biden disappeared for an entire week in mid-March, as the crisis reached its apex in the U.S. He finally resurfaced on March 23 for a deeply uninspiring online livestream that pitted the stammering candidate against a barely functional teleprompter.

As the pandemic spreads across the country, college students have descended on the beaches of South Florida for the spring break beer bash that has become a rite of passage for the young and mindless. The state’s Republican governor, Ron DeSantis, a Harvard graduate who was narrowly elected after warning his African American opponent would “monkey this up,” defended his decision to keep beaches open for the annual bacchanal. “If you have a Floridian that goes and walks their dog, like a married couple on the beach,” De Santis eloquently explained, “as long as you’re not within six feet of each other, they view that as a healthy thing.”

With the shores wide open for randy fun, a widely-watched video circulated on Twitter showing a sun-burned bro gawking at a bikini-clad woman slurping a Bud Light through the rear end of a bent-over co-ed and exclaiming, “Nobody gives a fuck about coronavirus here!”

Shelter in place and grab a protective mask if you can find one. The deluge has just begun
https://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/c ... d=78757637




SolarCross wrote:Christians seem to be happier and better adjusted people than socialists.


Quoted because I lol'd.
#15078491
The following is what I perceive.

1. The outbreak of Coronavirus in Wuhan is a result of dietary practice of the (Mainland) Chinese people.
2. The hierarchical command structure of the Chinese government means, even if they were doing it as quickly as possible, they would have slowed the containment for at least a few days. Worse, (at least) local officials detained those who reported the problem, which further hampered the response.
3. More affluent Chinese (including Hongkongers), out of panic or distrust of their government, went to other countries either for procurement of medical / protective ware, or evasion from being contacted. Unfortunately, such kind of behaviour spread the virus more.
4. People in the West (including Western governments) generally had low awareness of how respiratory diseases spread. Worse, they still think wearing a face mask do not help, despite both Hong Kong and Taiwan having contained the epidemic effectively by people wearing face masks.
5. The OP's point mainly focuses around point 2.
6. Holding the Chinese government to account for point 2 is not conspiracy or cold-war thinking. Any attempt to exonerate the Chinese Communist Party by opposing this point must be condemned.

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