Are these mingy little beasts really the champions of the working class? - Page 30 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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As either the transitional stage to communism or legitimate socio-economic ends in its own right.
Forum rules: No one line posts please.
#15075435
ingliz wrote:
Typical Trotskyite revisionism.



No, I don't associate Trotskyism with my own policy position on all of that, as stated.

My reasoning is that ISIS is *fascist*, and I have no problem with bourgeois governments, and even their militaries, intervening to quash religious fundamentalism, or fascism, which is basically what happened, through the SDF.


ingliz wrote:
What really happened...

1. Funnel IS fighters into Syria and give $500 million to the 'moderate opposition' (Al-Qaeda) to bring down Assad.

2. Send in specialists to train the 'moderate opposition' forces (AQ affilliated militia) while making a PR show bombing a few camels.

3. Leave the IS and AQ militia to fight Assad.

4. Make disapproving noises when Russia intervenes to dissolve the IS Caliphate and eliminate AQ terrorists.


:lol:



Yes, I'm fully aware of the FSA and its backing by the U.S. and Turkey.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Syrian_Army

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Syri ... _Islamists

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Syri ... se_of_ISIL


However the U.S. *flipped*, and began to distance itself from the Islamists, and it also joined counter-ISIS forces, through the SDF, which is a *good* thing.

I'm all for Rojava and the Yazidis, and Kurds, and the YPG, and against Turkey's ongoing adventurism in the region, particularly against Assad and the Kurds.
#15075725
ckaihatsu wrote:You're *incorrect* -- we've been over this terrain ad nauseum, and you just keep repeating the same line, over and over again, regardless, like a chatterbot.

Because you refuse to know the relevant facts. There is nothing I can do to explain but keep identifying them.
For the record, here's a diagram I did that speaks to the 'production' vs. 'privilege' aspect:
[23] A Business Perspective on the Declining Rate of Profit

Spoiler: show
Image

It doesn't mention privilege and shows no understanding of production.
I'm not here to defend religion, or any religion in particular. It does become a matter of *politics*, though, if you decide to be a vigilante, either with your statements, or physically, in-person.

I'm not advocating vigilantism, just consistent application of the law. It is outrageous that people can be imprisoned for criticizing Muslim atrocities, but Muslim clerics can't be touched for inciting those atrocities.
You don't get it -- it's in your best interests to *not* be a counterrevolutionary.

Unless the revolution is bad for society, which socialist revolutions are.
#15075744
Truth To Power wrote:
Because you refuse to know the relevant facts. There is nothing I can do to explain but keep identifying them.



For the record, I define 'production' as 'exploited wage labor, on private-equity equipment / implements (factories), and 'privilege' is *all* 'capital ownership', and not just real estate / property / rentier capital.


Truth To Power wrote:
It doesn't mention privilege and shows no understanding of production.



Okay, I just stated those terms, for the record.


Truth To Power wrote:
I'm not advocating vigilantism, just consistent application of the law. It is outrageous that people can be imprisoned for criticizing Muslim atrocities, but Muslim clerics can't be touched for inciting those atrocities.



You may want to reference actual news items, or history -- post some links. I don't know what you're talking about in the abstract.


---


ckaihatsu wrote:
You don't get it -- it's in your best interests to *not* be a counterrevolutionary.



Truth To Power wrote:
Unless the revolution is bad for society, which socialist revolutions are.



You mean *Stalinism*, specifically, and I agree there -- I don't support bureaucratic-elitist nationalism.

Btw:


Political Spectrum, Simplified

Spoiler: show
Image
#15075931
This is of course all lies and nonsense. The US-led forces remain in Iraq in defiance of the country’s parliament and in the face of the overwhelming hostility of the Iraqi people. They are not acting in coordination with any elements within the Iraqi military or government.

[...]

It is abundantly clear that the US is not in Iraq to fight ISIS. On the contrary, American commanders openly acknowledge that they now see the Shia militias that defeated ISIS with assistance from Iran as their principal enemy. Just as Washington is backing al-Qaeda-linked militias in Syria, it may well begin lending support to ISIS in Iraq in order to better divide and rule the country, while preparing for a direct military confrontation with Iran.

[...]

Even as the coronavirus confronts the US and the world with a crisis of unprecedented dimensions, US imperialism is calculating how it can exploit this crisis to advance its interests through an escalation of military aggression that can ignite war throughout the Middle East and the entire planet.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/0 ... q-m17.html


Terry Lawrence • 3 hours ago

The British RAF and the USAF function de-facto as the ISIS air force, flying cover for ISIS convoys to protect them from Syrian air attack and bombing Syrian army positions in support of ISIS attacks.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/0 ... q-m17.html
#15075941
ckaihatsu wrote:For the record, I define 'production' as 'exploited wage labor, on private-equity equipment / implements (factories), and 'privilege' is *all* 'capital ownership', and not just real estate / property / rentier capital.

I.e., you redefine perfectly clear words to erase the indisputable facts of objective physical reality that prove your beliefs are false and evil. Sorry, I don't think it is useful -- and certainly won't be entertaining -- to try to communicate with whatever remnant of a human consciousness could choose to thus immolate itself.
#15076186
Truth To Power wrote:
I.e., you redefine perfectly clear words to erase the indisputable facts of objective physical reality that prove your beliefs are false and evil. Sorry, I don't think it is useful -- and certainly won't be entertaining -- to try to communicate with whatever remnant of a human consciousness could choose to thus immolate itself.



TTP, you don't even want to try to find any common ground on *definitions*, so you just disparage *my person* with facile insults.

Again, what you do here at PoFo you could just do *offline*, *by yourself*. You don't need to be here, judging from the content of your posts (to me).
#15076235
ckaihatsu wrote:TTP, you don't even want to try to find any common ground on *definitions*,

That is correct. I do not want to provide anyone with any excuse for thinking I would for one minute countenance use of definitions that are intended to obscure and mislead rather than clarify and illuminate.
so you just disparage *my person* with facile insults.

They are not facile. They are a warning both to you and to others here who might learn from your tragic example.
Again, what you do here at PoFo you could just do *offline*, *by yourself*. You don't need to be here, judging from the content of your posts (to me).

Obviously I don't need to be here. But it's a convenient way to test both my views and my reasons for holding them against typical opponents of liberty, justice and truth on the left and right.
#15076312
I think anyone who reads through this thread will find that Orwell's assessment of state socialists was pretty accurate and still holds nearly a century later. They've learned nothing and they're still at it.
#15076453
Yet-again, I'm *not* a 'state socialist', because the workers of the *world* need to be in control of society's social production.

My entire political framework is available for review, by anyone, so if any of you want to move to a discussion of what I *do* propose, and advocate, take a look (the site is slow-loading, though).


Labor credits Frequently Asked Questions

https://www.revleft.space/vb/threads/20 ... -Questions


And, again, my recent graphic illustration *sums up* the politics that I advocate:


Emergent Central Planning

Spoiler: show
Image
#15079125
SolarCross wrote:I think you have to distinguish between the host of the ideology, the Muslim, and the ideology itself, Islam. You might love your dog but you can't treat him the same way after he has been infected with rabies. It is not your dog you have put down but the rabies, if you can do it without killing the dog so much the better.

I'm trying to imagine what a selected group of humans "with rabies" (metaphorically) might look like.

Would they slowly-but-surely commit genocide across an entire continent, and then go after other continents with all the resources they've stolen from their millions of victims?

Would they still be doing this and lying about it, after 250 years?

Would they proudly display their regressive racism by comparing some of their victims to other animals?
#15079130
QatzelOk wrote:
Would they slowly-but-surely commit genocide across an entire continent, and then go after other continents with all the resources they've stolen from their millions of victims?

Would they still be doing this and lying about it, after 250 years?

Would they proudly display their regressive racism by comparing some of their victims to other animals?


Didn't the Muslims do precisely that for like centuries? :lol: Didn't the Aztecs and the Incas do that same shit too? Which group of rabid humanimals didn't do that shit? I'm sure there must be one or two that didn't but I doubt it was for lack of trying. The only ones who didn't were the ones who couldn't.

There are no victims in history.
#15079134
Sivad wrote:Didn't the Muslims do precisely that for like centuries?

No, they didn't.

The Persians are still there, the Egyptians are still there, the Berbers are still there. Majorities where they were always majorities.

But the Blackfoot, Pawnee, Cheyenne, Crow, Apaches, etc. got to taste the kind of "rabid dog" behavior that SolarCross was trying to smear other cultures with.
#15079152
Weren't the Anasazi genocided by another tribe? I remember reading something about that recently.

The Bantu in Africa genocided a lot of tribes, they went on a genociding rampage.

Asian people genocided Europeans. Tamerlane massacred all kinds of ethnic groups.

The Incas and Aztecs wiped out many many smaller tribes.

And genocide was the common form of warfare during the era of chiefdoms in the Middle East and Asia Minor.

It's not a European thing, it's a rabid humanimal thing.
#15079264
This is exactly why I'm calling it 'conservative reductionism', because of this unacceptable victim-blaming attitude, as though all human motivations and behavior throughout history is simply *interpersonal*, with no greater social dynamics whatsoever.

But here's the antidote -- a *scale-indexed* framework of society / history, so that one can see the emergent social *institutions* and larger dynamics that exist for class society (from approximately 10,000 years ago).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Revolution


‭History, Macro-Micro -- politics-logistics-lifestyle

Spoiler: show
Image
#15079273
QatzelOk wrote:No, they didn't.

The Persians are still there, the Egyptians are still there, the Berbers are still there. Majorities where they were always majorities.

But the Blackfoot, Pawnee, Cheyenne, Crow, Apaches, etc. got to taste the kind of "rabid dog" behavior that SolarCross was trying to smear other cultures with.

The Persians that were allowed to live were the ones that converted. I lived there actually. They have an underground culture even to this day. Iran now has a dominant basically Arab culture from its Islamic invaders and then far, far below, existing in more or less paranoid secrecy the remnants of its ancient Zoroastrian Iranian culture. The Iranians are still under occupation by a hostile and foreign culture. That is the story behind all the Islamic expansions, convert or die.

It will not be different for Europeans. If Islam wins in Europe then the "French" will still exist but he will wear a beard with shaved mustache, pray 5 times a day, go to mosque on friday, curse the infidels, hang the gays, and name his son Mohammad and encourage him to go on jihad. One in 10 of these classic new Frenchmen will look just like this except deep, deep in his most personal private effects he might have a tatty saucy postcard or some memorabilia of the Louvre how it was before all the art was burned and it was turned into a mosque. Maybe he will occasionally meet up with his "savvy" uncle Mohammad for a deeply private sip of black market wine and to retell old half-remembered stories of how France was in the old days back when it was secular, before the conquest.
#15079640
ckaihatsu wrote:This is more right-wing 'clash of civilizations' fearmongering bullshit, in support of Western Civilization (such as it is).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_Civilizations

You think the Islamists are your allies in your personal crusade against the West? They don't know you are even alive, you are not even a flea beside their mountain. You will get no scraps from them if they win, you will face the same fate as the rest of us.

#15079909
SolarCross wrote:
You think the Islamists are your allies in your personal crusade against the West? They don't know you are even alive, you are not even a flea beside their mountain. You will get no scraps from them if they win, you will face the same fate as the rest of us.




No, I don't think the Islamists are my political allies. You're being *specific* now, about Islamism, which is different from a vague bullshit 'clash of civilizations' interpretation of history, and the present.

As I said about one page back on this thread, I'm anti-ISIS because they're basically fascists. I support all anti-fascist efforts, notably Antifa.
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