If Puerto Ricans want to be independent, why don't they vote to be independent? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15080452
Watch this Emmy award winning film that goes over the options and you will find the reasons why independence has lost votes. The USA used violence in a horrible way to discourage it. It was illegal to fly a Puerto Rican flag in Puerto Rico in 1935. Jail time and fines were imposed. There was a massacre for a nationalist event in the city of Ponce. There was even a bombing of a town for trying to be independent.

Just because you never heard about or read a history of the problems doesn't mean it did not exist. You think the USA government talks about mass killings it did to retain power in a land? No, it is bad publicity. But it happened. The options that the Puerto Ricans and their local government are wrestling with are very complex and difficult.

My statement of why I think the Puerto Ricans have not voted for independence? It is boiled down to one sentence. They live in fear of what the USA gov't will do to them if they said "Get the hell out and don't come back." Don Pedro did that. They basically jailed him and tortured him for life. They killed the nationalists, jailed them. They pursued the Puerto Rican independence activists. Jose Serrano from New York state from the Democratic party requested that the FBI release what they did in the Freedom of Information Act all the ways they acted to suppress independence activism in Puerto Rico. He did it and admitted they used violence, lies, frame ups, smear campaigns and basically against international law violations, human rights and civil rights violations against the pro independence people.

End of story.

If you use violence, money and power to kill any movement that goes against your interests as a nation that is very very wealthy, powerful and militarily mighty against a tiny island in the Caribbean with a Latin American culture? You usually can be successful. Is it fair? No. Is it right? No. Is it moral? No. But it is true. The USA gov't is unfair, immoral and wrong. But that is how they act.

Accept it. If you care about Puerto Rico? Do something to change that. Join a committee to decolonize Puerto Rico. Write to your representatives, donate to Puerto Rican relief efforts. Work on change for the island that is positive. If you don't care? Then don't make dumb statements about how it is our fault for the problems only. It is about the USA gov't. Accept the responsibility for the parts of the USA that is bad and make change happen. Period.

Watch the video first. Give your opinion and support it with what the film discusses.

#15083202
Tainari88 wrote:Watch the video first. Give your opinion and support it with what the film discusses.

I just finished watching the video, and found it interesting and informative.

I was impressed by Pedro Pierluiso and his lobbying efforts. He reminds me so much of the slick-but-regressive, none-too-smart pro-Canada lobbyists we still have in Quebec as well. Though their numbers are dwindling as the boomers die off.

These "Total Dependence" types often have really slick hair and latest-model glasses, just like him! All style, big smile, eyes too close together. Predator eyes.

I find it sad that Puerto Rico got so little support for independence in that last plebiscite. It's like many of the people who live there have no confidence in their island, and await, like so many poor islanders all over the world, for that opportunity to become a glamorous American, 250 pounds of steak dinners, SUVS, and as much TV as you can watch.

I can't help think that part of the reason for such anaemic support for sovereignty is, as you mention, a result of the severe disciplining of independence movements in the past. The "common sense" that emerged from all that repression and killing is to "just sit still and enjoy the fat they let us eat."

Of course, the film is just crying for a "post-hurricane paper-towel-toss" update.
#15083220
QatzelOk wrote:I just finished watching the video, and found it interesting and informative.

I was impressed by Pedro Pierluiso and his lobbying efforts. He reminds me so much of the slick-but-regressive, none-too-smart pro-Canada lobbyists we still have in Quebec as well. Though their numbers are dwindling as the boomers die off.

These "Total Dependence" types often have really slick hair and latest-model glasses, just like him! All style, big smile, eyes too close together. Predator eyes.

I find it sad that Puerto Rico got so little support for independence in that last plebiscite. It's like many of the people who live there have no confidence in their island, and await, like so many poor islanders all over the world, for that opportunity to become a glamorous American, 250 pounds of steak dinners, SUVS, and as much TV as you can watch.

I can't help think that part of the reason for such anaemic support for sovereignty is, as you mention, a result of the severe disciplining of independence movements in the past. The "common sense" that emerged from all that repression and killing is to "just sit still and enjoy the fat they let us eat."

Of course, the film is just crying for a "post-hurricane paper-towel-toss" update.



It is incredibly horrific Q. Puerto Ricans are wonderful people. But unless they wake up and get active in taking back their lands, their history, and their lives? The disgusting sellouts from the Trump administration bungling pieces of shit will deal them their final blow. And we as Puerto Ricans Q will wind up like many First Nations. Without our land, without our culture, without our language and dying from bad diets, bad values and stupidity with the politics.

Many Puerto Ricans believe in the bad propaganda you have analyzed so well by the USA gov't. They need to realize what needs to happen.

Pierluisi is a fool Q. So are all those ass-kissing spineless cowards from the statehood party. Do you think the American creeps from the Republican party are going to give them money and status? It is AWFUL.

I forgot to ask you Q about which party you think would be best for Puerto Rico? I would love to hear your opinion?
#15083321
Tainari88 wrote:...unless they wake up and get active in taking back their lands, their history, and their lives? The disgusting sellouts from the Trump administration bungling pieces of shit will deal them their final blow. And we as Puerto Ricans Q will wind up like many First Nations. Without our land, without our culture, without our language and dying from bad diets, bad values and stupidity with the politics.




Above is a link to a 4K "tour of Hawaii" video I watched while doing stationary bicycling in my house. If you watch it, you will see that the natural landscapes are beautiful. But I will never visit Hawaii because the architecture, the urbanism, the people, the malls... are exactly like you would find in Maine or Michigan. There is no trace of anything local or unique.

What exactly is "Hawaiian" culture other than a colorful necklace at the airport and a few mixed drinks? Any indigenous unique qualities are gone, probably forever. All you see are ugly bungalows blocking waterviews, parking garages that create dead streetscapes, and overweight pasty-skin people wobbling between their SUVs and the cement malls that plague the other 40 states. The local culture seems to be as dead as the Dodo bird.

Many Puerto Ricans believe in the bad propaganda you have analyzed so well by the USA gov't. They need to realize what needs to happen. Pierluisi is a fool Q. So are all those ass-kissing spineless cowards from the statehood party. Do you think the American creeps from the Republican party are going to give them money and status? It is AWFUL.

I forgot to ask you Q about which party you think would be best for Puerto Rico? I would love to hear your opinion?

I would, of course, support independence for Puerto Rico. But to get there, local independence supporters have to work on two things:

1. Deconstruction of colonial narratives: "If we dress up like a State, the White Gods will rain money on us" is only valid as a narrative because of how much airtime it gets. The Pierluisian notion that "act like whitey, get rich like whitey" is very cargo cultish.

2. Provision of local community services: In order to underline and ultimately "prove" the preferability of an independent Puerto Rico, independence supporters should provide an ever-increasing amount of local services in things like community education, health care, disaster relief, home construction, care of seniors and children, etc.

These are off the top of my head. I'm sure Cuba's historical achievments would be very educational in terms of "building" a nation that has been shattered by colonial control.
#15083440
@QatzelOk Your number 2 of Provision of local community services? That is exactly my thought on how to build a pro independence movement. Unfortunately, many independentistas are academics and with PhDs and so on. Many of them are lawyers and doctors and the most educated and erudite and they need to realize you convert people to your political column through demonstrating your commitment to improving life for the working class. Also Q the island has relief from the economic issues by having people pack their bags and leave to the states Q. What needs to happen is to have a lot of Puerto Ricans working very hard together to rebuild a destroyed nation. And ironically? I think this pandemic just might break the hold of the banks on the island Q. How can they forgive trillions in debts and not bring relief to the island? The contradiction will be so glaring? I finally have hope for the island with the pandemic Q.

If the IMF is in trouble and has to whip out trillions? The banks are finally going to be on the chopping block. Puerto Rican freedom is great if they cancel the debt and get more things happening. The time of the sellouts I hope will be short Q.

Naomi Klein's disaster capitalism experience in Puerto Rico:


Also Q? The reason that Indian reservations and Puerto Rico are all in the same department in the federal government? The Department of the Interior is because the USA gov't had the same plans for us as they had for the Indian people of North America. Shove them off the land, take over, and assmilimate and give them the worst of everything. Winton Blankenship, Riggs, and many others were ex Native American Indian war people Q the plan was to keep the lands and marginalize the people who are native to that land.

Boricuas have been told for years that we are people who are worthless in terms of culture, and without a right to human rights and self determination. Brainwashing of the worst sort. Very colonial I might add. I think if you study Boricua culture it is a lovely new world mixture and quite interesting. If you love Cuban culture? You would love Boricua culture. The difference is that Boricuas had enormous pressure from the states to assimilate.....and they still are fighting it out. But for how long? I don't know. Again, got to fight for a change. I am hopeful Q.




Culture? Its beautiful. I like to say? Who are we? Listen to the rural 'hick' music from Puerto Rico? Give it a listen Q? It is lovely. That is how we are.



When I visited about twenty years ago? The culture is there in the music Q.

Americans keep insisting on conformity and corporations and the same shit all the time. It is a plague.

Also @QatzelOk i wrote to Naomi Klein. I wrote to her and had an email reply about this situation. I think it is hopeful. After all these catastrophes? The Boricuas are learning? If you want something to work for you? Don't depend on the ineffective external solution. Look for the solutions INTERNALLY. That is a universal human truth Q.

I love you Q!
#15083637
Tainari88 wrote:...Provision of local community services? That is exactly my thought on how to build a pro independence movement. Unfortunately, many independentistas are academics and with PhDs and so on...

All social movements start with theory (or criticism of previous theory) and then 'trickle down' to workers who don't have time to research or discuss theory.

Also, it's possible that 'the best system' would involve EVERYONE getting involved in agriculture, home-building, disaster-relief, child-care, elderly-care, etc. Why would any society "seal off" its academics in enclosed buildings (lockdown), unless that society is attempting to PREVENT the spread of useful knowlege?

Finally, one point I want to make is that "Being colonized and damaged' is not just a Puerto Rican, or developing country thing. All of us have been colonized and damaged by our money-hoarding, material-worshipping system. So the lessons of Puerto Rico are the lessons for all of us.
#15083662
QatzelOk wrote:All social movements start with theory (or criticism of previous theory) and then 'trickle down' to workers who don't have time to research or discuss theory.

Also, it's possible that 'the best system' would involve EVERYONE getting involved in agriculture, home-building, disaster-relief, child-care, elderly-care, etc. Why would any society "seal off" its academics in enclosed buildings (lockdown), unless that society is attempting to PREVENT the spread of useful knowlege?

Finally, one point I want to make is that "Being colonized and damaged' is not just a Puerto Rican, or developing country thing. All of us have been colonized and damaged by our money-hoarding, material-worshipping system. So the lessons of Puerto Rico are the lessons for all of us.


I could not agree with you more Q.

The academics in Puerto Rico were the ones who thought Puerto Rico had enough experts and economists, physicians, physicists, engineers, administrators, intellectuals etc to make it as an independent nation Q. The University of Puerto Rico was practically free and had the socialists, and many others on the left of the political spectrum going out there and pressuring he Right wing American boot licking ones to stop folding to the demands of the American banks, and corporations. The University now is being dismantled massively to destroy the one creating dissent.

In the end the solution though is forgetting about the assholes in DC who want to squash Puerto Rican solvency and sovereignty--and rolling up the sleeves and getting things done. My mother died in that fight Q. She died with the environmental pollution caused by the USA Navy and the politicians trying to cover their asses in the USA using an island with no voting power to dump their toxic waste on.

My mother before she died said to me, "the fight now is going to be about preserving the land, the water and the earth." She was right as usual.

I have zero patience anymore for American bullshit myths of theirs about fairness and democracy, and how caring they are about justice and equality. All they want to do in Puerto Rico is destroy, pollute and make Puerto Ricans the new Hawaiians. Minorities in their own ancestral lands with some lei necklace and a cocktail and some idea of the same type of golf course, hotel bullshit they did in Honolulu. The Native Hawaiians live in poverty and don't even speak their Hawaiian language anymore. Strangers without power in their homeland. That is what the assholes from DC want. They are the worst Q.

We won't wind up like them though. I think we have a Cuban spirit of fighting. Let us see where it leads us eh Q?

;)
#15083742
Tainari88 wrote:The academics in Puerto Rico were the ones who thought Puerto Rico had enough experts and economists, physicians, physicists, engineers, administrators, intellectuals etc to make it as an independent nation Q. The University of Puerto Rico was practically free and had the socialists, and many others on the left of the political spectrum going out there and pressuring he Right wing American boot licking ones to stop folding to the demands of the American banks, and corporations. The University now is being dismantled massively to destroy the one creating dissent.

In Quebec, it was the Universite du Quebec a Montreal (UQAM) that has been our social intervention university since it was created for that purpose in the late 60s during the Quiet Revolution. It's still going strong on a shoestring budget, with 40,000 students.

But the 'education' I want to recall again is the 'message' of Pierluisi-the-lobbyist in the film you provided. His 'education' is one of hope, if we just follow his lead in becoming a state and 'getting all that free money.'

I am interested in studying this kind of lobbyist, but not meeting with him (for fear of walking away with an overpriced used car - I don't even have my license). It's obvious he can smell a treat for himself if he sells the product he has been programmed to sell. But his idea that "investors" are just waiting for the correct behaviors (statehood) to drop money and jobs on the same Puerto Ricans who live there now... is only credible if you DON'T have a critical mind, like the one you can develop in certain university or college environments.

His notion of "I found a loophole full of cash for everyone" is like that junkmail that tells you that you have won or inherited millions. Just sign here.

And "waiting for us to show correct behavior before they bless us with cash" is a cheap mockery of religion, and the idea that if you act like a saint, God will shower you with an eternity in heaven. It's credible because the church told us that for hundreds of years, and we pretended it was true for the sake of the collective. But please, don't use that as a sketch of reality to trick people into some kind of illogical game that rewards only the used car salesman.
#15083768
QatzelOk wrote:In Quebec, it was the Universite du Quebec a Montreal (UQAM) that has been our social intervention university since it was created for that purpose in the late 60s during the Quiet Revolution. It's still going strong on a shoestring budget, with 40,000 students.

But the 'education' I want to recall again is the 'message' of Pierluisi-the-lobbyist in the film you provided. His 'education' is one of hope, if we just follow his lead in becoming a state and 'getting all that free money.'

I am interested in studying this kind of lobbyist, but not meeting with him (for fear of walking away with an overpriced used car - I don't even have my license). It's obvious he can smell a treat for himself if he sells the product he has been programmed to sell. But his idea that "investors" are just waiting for the correct behaviors (statehood) to drop money and jobs on the same Puerto Ricans who live there now... is only credible if you DON'T have a critical mind, like the one you can develop in certain university or college environments.

His notion of "I found a loophole full of cash for everyone" is like that junkmail that tells you that you have won or inherited millions. Just sign here.

And "waiting for us to show correct behavior before they bless us with cash" is a cheap mockery of religion, and the idea that if you act like a saint, God will shower you with an eternity in heaven. It's credible because the church told us that for hundreds of years, and we pretended it was true for the sake of the collective. But please, don't use that as a sketch of reality to trick people into some kind of illogical game that rewards only the used car salesman.


The whole purpose of that PNP (Partido Nuevo Progresista) was to create a conservative party that destroyed the idea of a Puerto Rican homeland Q. Before 1968? It did not exist Q. It was Luis Munoz Rivera (father) and Luis Munoz Marin (son), from the PPD party (Partido Popular Democratico) both were autonomy advocates,
and were ex pro-independence and they compromised for the ability to supposedly lift people out of poverty by giving all the farmland to the banks from the USA and the profits to them as well.

Anyone who believed in the bullshit lie that the USA gov't was going to be giving away free money out of the goodness of their hearts to help out the Puerto Rican people are total fools Q. No such thing as free money for capitalist industries, and banks. The USA did not become an empire considering the needs of some Caribbean mixed-race nation before its own needs for greed. Whoever believes that bullshit is stupid.

But the money pumped to prop up the PNP statehood party had a bad effect on many Puerto Ricans. Yes, we are Americans the same as any Yankee in New York or Connecticut or Dixie Southerner in Florida or Georgia. Lol. We just got to LEAVE our homeland to have political rights.

The only one who doesn't see that as fishy? Is ignorant in the extreme. You got a lot of Americans convinced that Puerto Ricans all agree that the USA is for them and they want INSIDE equality to the statehood club.

They don't study Palau. Palau wanted to leave the unincorporated territories scene. The path they took was independence because statehood was not the plan from the USA. They try to sell that shit to the unincorporated territories to keep the lie going. Eventually it is exposed the Palau folk say "No thanks. Don't want to be part of the USA citizen thing. Just give me habitual resident. And let us run our own thing." The Americcans are so damn brainwashed they think that the entire world wants to be an American Q.

Most people are looking for jobs and a way of making a living. That is the purpose of immigration for the USA not because the American scene is the only culture people in the world value.

I have found Americans incredibly disrespectful Q. Paper towel toss aside? They think that there is an absence of meaning in being from another culture. All human cultures find meaning in their own reality.

The evidence is not about statehood Q. If they make PR a state? They will have to deal with the US Virgin Islands, Solomon islands, American Samoa, Guam. The Samoans have a terrible deal. But they remain nationals and not USA citizens because they refuse to give up the land. They retain Native land rights. So the American gov't refuses to give them rights til they let them have the land. It is the base of all of the abuse Q. They want the lands but none of the people who were there before they invaded want to abandon it. It is the Indian war manifest destiny problem.
#15083872
Tainari88 wrote:Anyone who believed in the bullshit lie that the USA gov't was going to be giving away free money out of the goodness of their hearts to help out the Puerto Rican people are total fools Q. No such thing as free money for capitalist industries, and banks. The USA did not become an empire considering the needs of some Caribbean mixed-race nation before its own needs for greed. Whoever believes that bullshit is stupid.

Likewise, Quebec staying inside Canada. Canada became "rich" by genociding the First Nations, and then exploiting the land almost to death. In its 150 years of existence, European-colonialists have almost destroyed its livability, making the air poison, the water contaminated, and the social environment toxic and competitive - dog-eat-dog.

Our foreign 'aid' is a fraction of what our private corporations spend destroying poor countries to make them "pliable" in the same way that the genocide of First Nations "opened up" many economic "posibilities" for them who were willing to violate nature.

And the Quebecois who support Federalism (dependence in Canada) will argue that we get tons of free money from Ottawa, and that other Canadians fought for Quebec to stay in Canada during our two independence refernedums because "they love giving us free money."

Outside of referendums, many "ordinary" Canadians are as kind to Quebecois as White Americans are to blacks and hispanics. Empires need "others," and when there is no opportunity to rob foreigners, the majority "drone class" can be turned on local minorities. So to think that these human drones are showring you with money, is to believe the propaganda that they provide you with. Same people who exploit you tend to make lots of media products that mask the exploitation with "freedom and free money" memes.
#15083900
QatzelOk wrote:All social movements start with theory (or criticism of previous theory) and then 'trickle down' to workers who don't have time to research or discuss theory.

Also, it's possible that 'the best system' would involve EVERYONE getting involved in agriculture, home-building, disaster-relief, child-care, elderly-care, etc. Why would any society "seal off" its academics in enclosed buildings (lockdown), unless that society is attempting to PREVENT the spread of useful knowlege?

Finally, one point I want to make is that "Being colonized and damaged' is not just a Puerto Rican, or developing country thing. All of us have been colonized and damaged by our money-hoarding, material-worshipping system. So the lessons of Puerto Rico are the lessons for all of us.


Yes, Q its a systemic problem. Unfortunately, you have a lot of posters on here? Who insist on blaming everyone but the ones ultimately responsible. Why? They all want to believe in myths of bullshit instead of accepting the truth. The USA gov't does oppress. It denies rights and goes back on contracts and it is a very sellout place. If they accept it? There is dialogue. If they keep thinking my country wrong or right I got to back it regardless? Eventually, you wind up without options.

I would not trust Pierluisi or the PROMESA panel made up of unelected bankers making decisions over people whom they don't have to be held accountable to? Would the Americans complain about independence on this thread accept that situation for themselves and their country? No. But they expect what? Puerto Ricans to accept it. I am not the sellout. I say? Make us independent. Forgive or cancel the debt, give us the profits you stole and let us move on without all that control.

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