[Patrickov]

If some socialist movements are more reasonable than others, then it is incorrect to argue that all of them are oppressive.

Just "slightly", still oppressive.

[Pants-of-dog]

Just "slightly", still oppressive.

If you want to believe that all socialist regimes are oppressive, despite the facts, go ahead.

You have every right to believe things that are not true.

[Patrickov]

If you want to believe that all socialist regimes are oppressive, despite the facts, go ahead.

You have every right to believe things that are not true.

Reviewing my post in #15080694, I was indeed being specific to current China, although it is also true for the Soviet Union, North Korea, Vietnam and Laos. Also all those Warsaw Pact countries, Albania under Hoxha, Iraq under Saddam, and Libya under Qaddafi.

Many of them did achieve national liberation, but it is simply not enough or not helpful to people's well being, at least after a certain point. And seeing most of them becoming failed states makes one question whether socialism is a viable alternative. I mean, even if all of them had been battered by the West, some must have prospered. China and Vietnam only turned OK because they in some sense opened up to the West. Seeing most countries succumbing when practicing socialism, wasn't socialism a bit too weak and vulnerable then?

[Pants-of-dog]

Reviewing my post in #15080694, I was indeed being specific to current China, although it is also true for the Soviet Union, North Korea, Vietnam and Laos. Also all those Warsaw Pact countries, Albania under Hoxha, Iraq under Saddam, and Libya under Qaddafi.

Many of them did achieve national liberation, but it is simply not enough or not helpful to people's well being, at least after a certain point. And seeing most of them becoming failed states makes one question whether socialism is a viable alternative. I mean, even if all of them had been battered by the West, some must have prospered. China and Vietnam only turned OK because they in some sense opened up to the West. Seeing most countries succumbing when practicing socialism, wasn't socialism a bit too weak and vulnerable then?

By that logic, Cuba is a successful example of socialism.

It achieved national liberation.

It provides health care and education to its citizens.

It enjoys the support of the Cuban people.

[Patrickov]

By that logic, Cuba is a successful example of socialism.

It achieved national liberation.

It provides health care and education to its citizens.

It enjoys the support of the Cuban people.

But did it ensure that people could face no consequences just because they were critical to the government?

I still oppose the thread's title because Cuba's (apparent) success does not necessarily mean capitalism and technology are essentially failures. Rather, the failure of other socialism states makes Cuba's (apparent) success seems to be an exception instead of the norm.

[Pants-of-dog]

But did it ensure that people could face no consequences just because they were critical to the government?

To a degree.

Since the USA is still trying to destabilize Cuba, people who are openly supportive of renewing foreign domination by western imperialist forces are not going to enjoy the same freedom of speech as those who are not collaborating with foreign enemies.

I still oppose the thread's title because Cuba's (apparent) success does not necessarily mean capitalism and technology are essentially failures. Rather, the failure of other socialism states makes Cuba's (apparent) success seems to be an exception instead of the norm.

I think you need only look at capitalism to see how capitalism fails.

[Patrickov]

I think you need only look at capitalism to see how capitalism fails.

Sorry I see it (and more importantly, technology. The two are not the same thing) as a success, not because it is perfect (far from, or in some places opposite to, it), but they seem more adapt to self-correction.

Failure of rival systems is indeed a good proof that the system we are talking about is (relatively) successful. I dare people to actually apply a better system and win real capitalist nations (say, Western European countries) over.

[Pants-of-dog]

Sorry I see it (and more importantly, technology. The two are not the same thing) as a success, not because it is perfect (far from, or in some places opposite to, it), but they seem more adapt to self-correction.

Can you show that capitalist countries in Central America and the Caribbean are better at self-correction than Cuba?

As far as I can tell, they have the same problems that they did sixty years ago, while Cuba does not.

Failure of rival systems is indeed a good proof that the system we are talking about is (relatively) successful. I dare people to actually apply a better system and win real capitalist nations (say, Western European countries) over.

When Latin American countries tried to create socialism democratically, western imperialists came with guns to enforce capitalism at gunpoint.

So, if you think that the rarity of functioning democratic socialist countries is an argument in your favour, you are ignoring history.

[Patrickov]

Can you show that capitalist countries in Central America and the Caribbean are better at self-correction than Cuba?

As far as I can tell, they have the same problems that they did sixty years ago, while Cuba does not.

What about Western European countries, South Korea, Japan and Taiwan?

It is absurd to say "capitalism and technology are failures" when there are places in the world that prove otherwise.

When Latin American countries tried to create socialism democratically, western imperialists came with guns to enforce capitalism at gunpoint.

So, if you think that the rarity of functioning democratic socialist countries is an argument in your favour, you are ignoring history.

I actually made this very point of history to my favour -- adopting socialism makes a country vulnerable because the people are living bad lives. Not just Latin America, but also Central Europe and North Asia. Even China and Vietnam had to deviate from their paths in order to survive.

And socialist countries, like China and North Korea, like to boost themselves as successful countries while in fact they are anything but. At least capitalist countries are more honest in admitting / displaying they have deplorable or even objectionable dark sides.

[Pants-of-dog]

What about Western European countries, South Korea, Japan and Taiwan?

It is absurd to say "capitalism and technology are failures" when there are places in the world that prove otherwise.

No. It would be stupid to make that comparison.

Western Europe has had a radically different history than Cuba. There is no way to compare the two without having confusing variables thrown in.

Other countries in the same region as Cuba have had very similar histories, so the amount of confounding variables is far lower.

I actually made this very point of history to my favour -- adopting socialism makes a country vulnerable because the people are living bad lives. Not just Latin America, but also Central Europe and North Asia. Even China and Vietnam had to deviate from their paths in order to survive.

Provide evidence that the Cuban regime causes people to live very bad lives.

And socialist countries, like China and North Korea, like to boost themselves as successful countries while in fact they are anything but. At least capitalist countries are more honest in admitting / displaying they have deplorable or even objectionable dark sides.

Subjective views of supposed morality are not an argument.

[Patrickov]

No. It would be stupid to make that comparison.

Western Europe has had a radically different history than Cuba. There is no way to compare the two without having confusing variables thrown in.

Other countries in the same region as Cuba have had very similar histories, so the amount of confounding variables is far lower.

Still makes the statement false, because that statement should apply worldwide.

Frankly Latin America's failure in the recent 200 years have been at least partly due to their isolation from anywhere else except the United States, and they had the misfortune of being first conquered and colonised by Spain. Even Spain itself kind of fell when the British and French rose.

Provide evidence that the Cuban regime causes people to live very bad lives.

Subjective views of supposed morality are not an argument.

I think it's the advocator's responsibility to provide proof for it. Besides I did not deny Cuba can be a successful example but that does not prove failure of capitalism in general.

Also, the accusation of subjectivity also needs proof. If anything it is not more subjective than insisting on only using Latin America to testify a statement that should be applied worldwide.

[QatzelOk]

I think it's the advocator's responsibility to provide proof for it. Besides I did not deny Cuba can be a successful example but that does not prove failure of capitalism in general.

Also, the accusation of subjectivity also needs proof. If anything it is not more subjective than insisting on only using Latin America to testify a statement that should be applied worldwide.

All the examples of "failure" you mentionned (like Libya) were bombed into failure by Western nations. It's like killing a Nun by shooting her in the head, and then saying this is proof that Catholicism is a false religion.

Only an angry, anti-papal Protestant with more Smith and Wesson stocks than wisdom could seriously find this credible.
There is no logic to "we killed you, so your ideas have failed."

Humanity desparately needs ideas far more than it needs Smith and Wesson profits or false prophets right now.

[Pants-of-dog]

Still makes the statement false, because that statement should apply worldwide.

Which? Your statement that capitalist economies are better at self-correcting?

Or the fact that Cuba serves as an example of a socialist economy that is apparently better at self-correcting than capitalist economies with similar history?

Frankly Latin America's failure in the recent 200 years have been at least partly due to their isolation from anywhere else except the United States, and they had the misfortune of being first conquered and colonised by Spain. Even Spain itself kind of fell when the British and French rose.

Yes, that is another reason why it would be stupid to compare it to western Europe et al.



I think it's the advocator's responsibility to provide proof for it. Besides I did not deny Cuba can be a successful example but that does not prove failure of capitalism in general.

Also, the accusation of subjectivity also needs proof. If anything it is not more subjective than insisting on only using Latin America to testify a statement that should be applied worldwide.[/quote]

[Patrickov]

Which? Your statement that capitalist economies are better at self-correcting?

Or the fact that Cuba serves as an example of a socialist economy that is apparently better at self-correcting than capitalist economies with similar history?

No, I am talking about the statement that "capitalism and technology are failures". I said that statement is supposed to apply worldwide, so East Asian examples prove it false.

[skinster]

‘Criminal blockade’: Cuba outraged as delivery of Covid-19 aid from Alibaba chief aborted ‘at the last minute’ due to US sanctions
Cuba has slammed the US’ “criminal blockade” of the country after the embargo stood in the way of the delivery of Covid-19 test kits and ventilators donated by Chinese e-commerce tycoon Jack Ma.

“The criminal blockade of the imperial government violates the human rights of the Cuban people,” President Miguel Diaz-Canel tweeted on Wednesday.


Cuba’s envoy to Beijing, Carlos Miguel Pereira, explained that an American firm was hired to deliver medical goods necessary to fight Covid-19, which were donated by a fund run by Jack Ma, Chinese philanthropist and owner of e-commerce giant Alibaba. However, the firm refused to deliver the shipment “at the last minute,” Pereira said.

According to the Xinhua News Agency, the company had specifically worried about the possibility of violating the 1995 US Helms-Burton Act, which strengthened sanctions against Cuba.

Cuba has 212 confirmed Covid-19 cases, with six deaths, according to data compiled by Johns Hopkins University.

Ma announced last month that his foundation would donate emergency medical supplies to Cuba and 23 other Caribbean and South American nations. The donation was said to include 2 million masks, 400,000 test kits, and 104 ventilators.

The US has maintained a trade embargo against Cuba since 1960.
https://www.rt.com/news/484743-cuba-cov ... -blockade/

[Stormsmith]

I have to disagree with you here, skinster. Patrickov's opinions are shared by many people living in rich, Western countries. That he is not ashamed to express them gives other people a golden opportunity to unpack them.
The United States looks a lot worse right now, and it consumes about 20 times the resources per person. Such crap at such a high cost. Even as a shopper, you have to understand that crappy merchandise that costs 20 times more.... can only be sold if you point a gun at shoppers' heads.

*like*

[skinster]

[AFAIK]

If China were a more open society, they would have been severely colonized and crushed by Western business interests.

The West and its lying, stealing elite, force other countries to shut themselves off. This is the other horrible consequence of colonialism and creating a mindless, zombie soldier class (like we've done).

This a fair point and part part me will be disapointed if this turns out to be the CCP's Chenobyl moment.

[Rancid]

This a fair point and part part me will be disapointed if this turns out to be the CCP's Chenobyl moment.

Don't worry about it, it won't.

[Patrickov]

This a fair point and part part me will be disapointed if this turns out to be the CCP's Chenobyl moment.

I think he either fails to notice or deliberately ignore the fact(*) that the Communists are worse liars / control freaks, or their system are even more prone to such atrocities (of the kind that directly causes loss of lives or living standard) than capitalism. If any case, Communists are worse zombies, at least when it comes to China.

I am well aware of the bad things of capitalism as they point out, but it cannot prevail solely because the rich benefit from it.

Unless I am a rich in their standard that is, but to be fair I am either not aware of it or I don't see myself as one.

(*: The proof of communist lying / spreading propaganda is so abundant that I simply do not bother to list. For example, some "sharings" of certain PoFo member are literally lies)