Vast protest in Hong Kong against extradition law - Page 67 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15071016
Donna wrote:
It's not wrong per se, it's just weak. Your rebellion will be doomed if it is unable to form a connection with poor Mainlanders. Both need each other - Hong Kongers need the solidarity of the Mainland in order to mount a successful uprising against the CCP bureaucracy, and conversely, the Mainlanders need the Hong Kongers to give them a voice outside of China.


In some sense the connection is indeed there but much of it is suppressed or deliberately distorted by the government and their minions (A certain Member had been doing this before the epidemic so I am extremely sensitive to any hint of anyone believing those shit). The Honourable Friend Mr. Rawls made some accurste observations although as I said, much of it is suppressed.

I do think some hold right-wing ideas (as My Friend from Estonia had pointed out) but these ideas are not actually harmful, as the CCP wants outsiders or foreigners to believe. If it does not fit the ideology of some Members here I can at best feel sorry, but frankly I will not bother to win them over because ideological difference is very hard to resolve. However, if they choose to side with the oppressors and slanderers I will not hesitate to debate them.

If there is a place for the middle ground I will happily stand there. Unfortunately the sheer difference in power and size means this simply does not exist at the moment.
#15071017
MadMonk wrote:There is no certainty that the CCP can't adapt to societal changes.

The core message will be that China is unique. Thousands of years of 'Civilization' and culture, the very center of the world until the past two or three centuries. Add paranoia of foreigners keeping the Motherland down which holds considerable truth given history, mix with rising living standards and serve to the masses.


To be fair, thing actually went worse after Xi Jinping took power. Up to Hu Jintao the hope was not really lost.

They do not serve masses of Hong Kong, and whether the Mainland mass is well served is also a question. This epidemic is itself a very good proof.

MadMonk wrote:We can't assume that your average Chinese citizen will share the same philosophy on society as other parts of the world. Stability is paramount in Chinese society. A return to the state of local Warlords is the real nightmare scenario in China.


If anything, during the warlord eras (happened at least four times in Chinese history) there were portions of the place where people enjoyed more freedom and control of their lives than elsewhere. If national unity means a unity of suffering lower standards then the unity itself should be questioned.
#15071020
JohnRawls wrote:Its not an uprising, it is a protest. And it will not fail because China is not in a position to supress it physically because they will get sanctioned straight away which is something that they don't want. This also doesn't solve the problems that they are currently experiencing aka all falling in line for the benelovent rule of the CCP. This doesn't just apply to HK or Tibet/Ugyurs. This actually applies to the average Chinese in all of the regions. Once income levels reach a certain point then you start caring for things like freedom of choice, freedom of press, freedom of creativity etc which China has none. So the protest will not go anywhere any time soon. On the contrary, more and more Chinese will join it over time if the economic conditions in China will keep improving. Then again, if the economic conditions do not improve or collapse then the CCP will be blamed also. So the CCP is kinda fucked in the long term.


Two thirds of China have the same level of development as North Africa. I don't see liberalism having much success on the mainland as a result, especially as Xi Jinping's "Chinese Dream" of achieving the Two 100's (becoming fully developed by 2049) is increasingly becoming unlikely as the climate crisis worsens and threatens to permanently disfigure global economic growth.

You're right that higher incomes and living standards raise expectations, but historically this is usually met with disappointment due to the fact that capitalism is characterized by uneven geographical development. There will always be protectionist, illiberal spaces within a developing nation, zone or region that upset the idealistic aspirations of immature, emergent middle classes.
#15071028
Donna wrote:
Two thirds of China have the same level of development as North Africa. I don't see liberalism having much success on the mainland as a result, especially as Xi Jinping's "Chinese Dream" of achieving the Two 100's (becoming fully developed by 2049) is increasingly becoming unlikely as the climate crisis worsens and threatens to permanently disfigure global economic growth.


In some sense, this is exactly why they are incapable to govern the remaining one-third, not to mention Hong Kong.
#15071092
Patrickov wrote:Everyone of us agree that people living in different conditions have different needs. If a nation is so divided in development, it is very hard to address one without sacrificing another. Apparently CCP chooses to satisfy the lower end and, intentionally or not, tries to drag down others by coercion.


But doesn't this just show how fragile liberalism is, that it doesn't work when there's too many poor people?
#15080934
Update.

(Source: Hong Kong Standard)

Police Win Appeal on Needing Warrant to Dig up Personal Phone Data

The Court of Appeal has overturned a High Court ruling that except for the most urgent cases, police officers need to obtain a warrant to search through mobiles phones they confiscate. The appeal was filed by the police.

Protest organizer Civil Human Rights Front filed a judicial review after police officers confiscated the mobiles phones of five of its members who were arrested after the July 1 rally in 2014. The High Court made the ruling in October 2017.


This is one of the worst breach of basic human rights. Who knows what the HK Police, now agents of totalitarian oppression, would do? They can now literally frame whoever opposing them by installing incriminating information.

The judge(s) is (are) the shame of Hong Kong and justice.

For evildoers shall be cut off -- Psalms 37:9

And yet another reminder of a certain insightful sharing from ESSEX.
#15080943
foxdemon wrote:So the HK police could use your account to access pofo and put everyone here on a watch list. Then we get detained as soon as we set foot in China, never to be seen again (except piece by piece on organ donner catalogues).


First, I seldom, if at all, access PoFo via my phone. And I do that Incognito, which means there is low risk of HK Police getting here via my account and / or my mobile. Of course it is another story if they (God Forbid) storm my home.

Also, this statement seems to be an overestimation of PoFo's influence.

And after all my aim here is not to advance the protesters' cause. Some of them have connections to the United States Congress so there is no point for me to draw support from ordinary people, who can get the information themselves anyways.

In fact, most PoFo members here are Americans, Latin Americans or Europeans and I feel freer (happier) to discuss on topics regarding them.
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