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#15080960
foxdemon wrote:

Well, let us classify that as the worst case scenario. :)



Worst case scenario is all the ways we are trying to make ourselves extinct.
#15080991
foxdemon wrote:Well, that is the worry. See, the rich don’t always do well out of crisis. Consider historical examples such as the Red revolution in Russia, 1918, or the liberal revolution in France, 1789. The rich didn’t so particularly well out of that. In fact, most of them suffered execution in one form or another.

There are other historical examples, but my personal favourite, which I would like to bring to your attention, is the collapse of the Mediterranean Bronze Age civilisation around 1300BC. This was the time of the Trojan wars and the New Kingdom Egyptians.

The archeological record has cities which show the city centre government buildings having been destroyed at the time of the collapse, but the surrounding residences being relatively intact. This subjects revolt by the proletariat rather than sacking due to invasion. The Sea People’s were likely displaced commoners ravaging the countryside rather than marauding Barbarians, as was originally thought.

Was the Bronze Age collapse the first commie revolt? @Donna ?

The following era wears a dark age, which saw a loss of high culture and an interruption to the transmission of abstract learning. It also saw a long period of population decline, move to smaller, defended settlements and general lose of cultural complexity. Population decline like that would mean a high death rate than birth rate. Try to imagine how that would be for the people of the time living through it.

But after a few centuries, cultural complexity began to recover as some settlements grew in size, were then able to collect a greater economic surplus and so fund armies of suffice to size to subjugate their neighbours, thus creating new empires. This recreated the greater economic efficiencies that allow substantial increases in cultural complexity and, hey presto, we are back to a civilised age again. This time the age of the Persians and the Greeks. The classical world that would be dominated by the Romans until it too collapsed in its turn, giving way to a new dark age.

That dark age would gradually resolve into the Middle Ages, then the renaissance and the age of modernity, the last 500 years of civilisation. But nothing lasts forever. What is must pass and return to the earth once more. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

Well, let us classify that as the worst case scenario. :)


Yes, that is the folly of the rich. Thinking they are above the fray and they can profit off of tragedy, scarcity and malaise and people in very large quantities losing their livelihoods, their homes, their savings and their loved ones and that the ones ruling them are always winners and always safe. It is flying in the face of the historical record to believe for one moment that large masses of people are some kind of passive pulp that just accepts whatever these greedy elites do because they can do it.

There will be a point as @Rancid pointed out? That they will get tired of the abuse. What usually happens with domestic violence after a long time? One of the two winds up dead. The majority in democratic representive democracies and even state capitalist socialist systems like the PRC is about? Will wind up losing power if they abuse their power too much. Humans are not these passive pulps of reception and openness to any kind of abuse with no consequences.

I really find despicable disaster capitalism. Where the swoop in after a natural disaster like Hurricane Maria. or after a pandemic like CoronaVirus 19 and think 'my golden opportunity to make more money'. Don't these assholes have elderly parents they love? Don't they have vulnerable people in their social circle dying? Don't they CARE about the costs on an emotional level to others? I am a vulnerable person in this situation of this Corona thing. So is my husband. My child is young at age 8. I had to have a difficult conversation with him about if Daddy and Mommy die who is going to raise him? I thought about all of it? And let him know who would be in charge if something happened to his father in another country of which he can't cross the border right now.....and what would happen if I pick it up and die from it. People who are poor and can't work due to the quarantine right now in Mexico have no way of paying their food bills. They come to me desperate...three or four times a day for work. Can I sweep your yard for you? Can I sell you some dirt for your planters? Can I clean your house? Can I wash your car? I don't turn them away. Even if I don't need the service. But I am not six feet away from them when I pay them or when I bring them something cool to drink. I have to get in the car with my son to go get groceries. Or water. Or another essential service. I could catch the thing.

If I do and I don't make it? The people who love the idea of making a profit from my death? From the death of a bunch of too poor to stay home Mexicans and American citizens and so on? They think that doesn't have social consequences? Political consequences?

My son will grow up and remember the do nothings who did nothing to help. He will remember the people who did not try to set up a humane system. He will remember the high unemployment and the struggles of generations of young people who had to work as young adults under debt burdens, and medical bankruptcies and so on.

Yes, Blackjack21 and others.....there are consequences for being petty, selfish, and boorish and nasty and thinking profit only is the creed humanity lives by. And the ones suffering the problems will be looking for you head on a platter politically. And maybe even socially. Terrorist groups with violent agendas with resentments against the elites will pop up. It is the dire consequences of callous hearts and selfish behavior. To think otherwise is a fool's paradise.
#15080995
foxdemon wrote:

Well, that is the worry. See, the rich don’t always do well out of crisis. Consider historical examples such as the Red revolution in Russia, 1918, or the liberal revolution in France, 1789. The rich didn’t so particularly well out of that. In fact, most of them suffered execution in one form or another.

There are other historical examples, but my personal favourite, which I would like to bring to your attention, is the collapse of the Mediterranean Bronze Age civilisation around 1300BC. This was the time of the Trojan wars and the New Kingdom Egyptians.

The archeological record has cities which show the city centre government buildings having been destroyed at the time of the collapse, but the surrounding residences being relatively intact. This subjects revolt by the proletariat rather than sacking due to invasion. The Sea People’s were likely displaced commoners ravaging the countryside rather than marauding Barbarians, as was originally thought.

Was the Bronze Age collapse the first commie revolt? @Donna ?

The following era wears a dark age, which saw a loss of high culture and an interruption to the transmission of abstract learning. It also saw a long period of population decline, move to smaller, defended settlements and general lose of cultural complexity. Population decline like that would mean a high death rate than birth rate. Try to imagine how that would be for the people of the time living through it.

But after a few centuries, cultural complexity began to recover as some settlements grew in size, were then able to collect a greater economic surplus and so fund armies of suffice to size to subjugate their neighbours, thus creating new empires. This recreated the greater economic efficiencies that allow substantial increases in cultural complexity and, hey presto, we are back to a civilised age again. This time the age of the Persians and the Greeks. The classical world that would be dominated by the Romans until it too collapsed in its turn, giving way to a new dark age.

That dark age would gradually resolve into the Middle Ages, then the renaissance and the age of modernity, the last 500 years of civilisation. But nothing lasts forever. What is must pass and return to the earth once more. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

Well, let us classify that as the worst case scenario. :)


From the ashes, China can rise, and lead the way for the rest of us. We will submit to them and their will.

it will be good.
#15081019
Rancid wrote:This is precisely why whenever a crisis comes and passes, and you re-evaluate the situation. The rich come out better than ever, and the poor come out worse than ever. It happened in 2008, and it's going to happen again here.

At some point, somethings gotta give though, no?

I am more or less a capitalist. Capitalism is an imperfect system that works imperfectly with the imperfect instincts of the human race. The potential abuses of capitalism are, however, virtually limitless and require a well informed electorate to put in place leaders who will protect them from the extremes of capitalism. In the mid 20th century America had a halfway decent balance between capitalism and the greater good for the greatest number. Over the past half century or so, however, the balance has shifted greatly in favor of extreme wealth for the few and empty big money financed propaganda and poverty for the many. Social security and Medicare have given way to massive tax reductions and a general stacking of the deck for the top 1% - 10%. A few trillion in tax reductions for billionaires is followed shortly by talk of "austerity" and the "unsustainability" of Social Security. We now have a situation of fiscal and physical chaos where an obese pig worth a few billion can be floating off shore safe from the pandemic on his multi million dollar ship while purchasing stock in Caskets R Us.

I am a capitalist who is against predatory capitalism. Predatory capitalism I doubt has ever been a topic of discussion on the Fox Fake News juggernaut. I think and hope that the current chaos is a reality check that will bring about a long over due swing of the pendulum back toward the center. Perhaps even the obese greed crazed billionaires on their private jets and islands are noticing that they are killing the goose who lays the golden egg :eek: .

An old Native American expression, I think, captures it: "Power does not listen with honest ears to the whispers of the powerless."
#15081030
jimjam wrote:I am more or less a capitalist. Capitalism is an imperfect system that works imperfectly with the imperfect instincts of the human race. The potential abuses of capitalism are, however, virtually limitless and require a well informed electorate to put in place leaders who will protect them from the extremes of capitalism. In the mid 20th century America had a halfway decent balance between capitalism and the greater good for the greatest number. Over the past half century or so, however, the balance has shifted greatly in favor of extreme wealth for the few and empty big money financed propaganda and poverty for the many. Social security and Medicare have given way to massive tax reductions and a general stacking of the deck for the top 1% - 10%. A few trillion in tax reductions for billionaires is followed shortly by talk of "austerity" and the "unsustainability" of Social Security. We now have a situation of fiscal and physical chaos where an obese pig worth a few billion can be floating off shore safe from the pandemic on his multi million dollar ship while purchasing stock in Caskets R Us.

I am a capitalist who is against predatory capitalism. Predatory capitalism I doubt has ever been a topic of discussion on the Fox Fake News juggernaut. I think and hope that the current chaos is a reality check that will bring about a long over due swing of the pendulum back toward the center. Perhaps even the obese greed crazed billionaires on their private jets and islands are noticing that they are killing the goose who lays the golden egg :eek: .


Well, I think it is important to understand the nature of the system one lives under. And I happen to think that capitalism is not an eternal system that is going to live forever. Nothing lives forever. Change is the nature of living on planet Earth. I think it is obvious to us all where wealth comes from--the planet's natural resources, and human labor, and innovation that comes from human beings inventing things, services, robots, technology, etc and having the same humans consume it. So the most logical system is to analyze which models socialism benefits from greatly and in which areas of government or economics is it most efficient and most humane to apply. And then do the same for capitalist models. I think small restaurants and little hotels and service intensive small businesses a capitalist model works sometimes. Very well. Especially family run businesses that are specialized like little cheese shops, chocolate shops, little women's boutiques, dog grooming businesses, vets, pet and food supplies, and a big number of beauty industries, and so on. It makes sense to let them be for profit businesses on a small scale. Enough to sustain a middle class or upper middle class lifestyle for those people. It is imperative that all of them have access to universal health care for everyone. Paid by pooled taxes. I also think big corporations need to be regulated in the extreme and forced to integrate all employees who work for them as partners in the enterprise. Look at the Mondragon models in Spain. They do well. So do some anarchist models in the past in Spain who thrived economically by being very even handed in distributing profits. Some businesses in the Apache and Navajo reservations work very well being community run industries. Airlines might do better being government run with some aspects being private ownership but all of them need to have extremely generous worker packages.

The eventual goal for me is to have a society and nations that share ALL WEALTH without regard to owner and non owner premises. Where power is not concentrated in few hands and is diffused to the point of absolute raising of standards of living to something sustainable, just and fair and also flexible and adaptable to the needs of the communities they serve. No Draconian authoritarianism but instead the drive is sustainable development, protection of families, groups and workers and access to a quality of life that discourages crime, discourages deprivation, and discourages inequality.

But if you let these selfish bastards take over without any resistance? You will have revolution, war, chaos, and collapse and a lot of suffering and maybe even a lot of pandemics, a lot of fear, and unusable water, air and earth. Death and extinction. It is really up to all of us to make a better world. Together. Not ''goody goody....some hurricane hit. tornadoes, earthquakes, disaster, blood and death, nuclear war, etc TIME TO CASH IN ON THE BLOOD SPILLED. Time to laugh at the cadavers due to the death unleashed." Ricky Rossello the ex governor of Puerto Rico laughed at the tragedy in Puerto Rico and sat his ass on money waiting to make himself look good politically. Sort of like Trump. The Boricuas hit the street and the pressure was so bad on him? He had to resign. Wanda Vasquez took over. She is from that idiot's same political party. If she doesn't do well with this pandemic? She is going down as well.

The Americans better stop thinking they are exceptional and special human beings that God has chosen to be the lone superpower in the world. They need to stop the myths and start being realistic about what capitalism is really like.
\
It is not the most humane system in the world. Sorry. It is not. Start maturing and realize there are thousands of years to live in the future. It is not going to survive one its flaws. Constant expansion and unequal power over property, land, and resources and profit above human life. Human life needs to be first. Always. Not second. It is emphasizing what is not essential. That is the truth.
#15081091
Rancid wrote:From the ashes, China can rise, and lead the way for the rest of us. We will submit to them and their will.

it will be good.




China is actually quite vulnerable to food shortages. So is the rest of Asia, such as India and Indonesia. A collapse of the global economy will take Asia down with it. And hard.

Whether it deserves it or not, the USA has the best future prospects. It has the largest contiguous farming land and a very much smaller population than India or China. Also it is relatively isolated. So the USA would have a better chance of surviving a global systemic collapse than any nation of Asia. Or indeed Europe or the Middle East. They are all screwed.

Anyway, what to invest in to protect wealth. Physical precious metals are good. Just so long as you take possession. Rich, juicy farmland is another assets that holds value, since it is intrinsically useful. Tools, seeds, etc to go with it. Shares not so much. Scrape metal companies, food companies and others which have basic economic functionality and hard assets are worth it. Any ‘tooth fairy’ investments, like all these junk bonds and currency, will just evaporate into the ether. All the bailouts are to keep that financial hocus locus going but even the state does not have unlimited coffers. Creating money from nothing must eventually cause inflation. Hence the precious metals and hard, earning assets like farmland. Those do well when currency heads toward worthlessness.
#15081112
Rancid wrote:From the ashes, China can rise, and lead the way for the rest of us. We will submit to them and their will.

it will be good.


Well if PR doesn't resolve its limbo colonial status bad relationship with the US gov't by then? I predict that the Americans are going to sell us to China to cancel some of their debts. And the dumb statehooders can go and advocate for Puerto Rico becoming the new province of the PRC. Lol. Volunteer to join the People's Army and learn Mandarin and talk about how it is not right to advocate for Puerto Rican independence because the Chinese are better administrators and we speak the same language. Lol. Sellouts are the same all over the world Rancid. :lol:
#15081116
Tainari88 wrote:Well if PR doesn't resolve its limbo colonial status bad relationship with the US gov't by then? I predict that the Americans are going to sell us to China to cancel some of their debts. And the dumb statehooders can go and advocate for Puerto Rico becoming the new province of the PRC. Lol. Volunteer to join the People's Army and learn Mandarin and talk about how it is not right to advocate for Puerto Rican independence because the Chinese are better administrators and we speak the same language. Lol. Sellouts are the same all over the world Rancid. :lol:


Yes they are all the same, traitors and sellouts. Taking Puerto Rico and Spain's other last colonies in the Spanish-American was was a pure act of Imperialism disguised by a false and manufactured concern for those under Spain's colonial rule. It was a mistake, but it happened for a reason. Someday, Puerto Rico will be let go by America eventually, but not for awhile longer.
#15081121
annatar1914 wrote:Yes they are all the same, traitors and sellouts. Taking Puerto Rico and Spain's other last colonies in the Spanish-American was was a pure act of Imperialism disguised by a false and manufactured concern for those under Spain's colonial rule. It was a mistake, but it happened for a reason. Someday, Puerto Rico will be let go by America eventually, but not for awhile longer.


Let go under what conditions Annatar? That is the question. Puerto Ricans have been told for centuries that they are not capable of self rule and so on. Even though many small nations including Palau from the ex unincorporated territories list (that gained its independence from the USA gov't in 1993) is proof that islands can become independent and rule themselves.

People have to stop with the lies Annatar2014. Making excuses for the sellouts that are not valid. I studied the history of the Caribbean basin for years. All the islands have had colonial pasts in some form. But? The reality is that we can have incredibly great and advantageous relationships with each other and North, South and Central American nations. But the USA has to stop being bad second rate copy cats of all these horrific invading crazy empires from England (UK), Spain, Portugal, France, Holland, the USA...it is terrible. Just allow the Caribbean islands to be free and develop on their own and with being able to adopt interesting and good policies that favor their own interests. Not the ones who live thousands of miles away and don't care about the locals. It is not going to make things better.
#15081124
Tainari88 wrote:Let go under what conditions Annatar? That is the question. Puerto Ricans have been told for centuries that they are not capable of self rule and so on. Even though many small nations including Palau from the ex unincorporated territories list (that gained its independence from the USA gov't in 1993) is proof that islands can become independent and rule themselves.

People have to stop with the lies Annatar2014. Making excuses for the sellouts that are not valid. I studied the history of the Caribbean basin for years. All the islands have had colonial pasts in some form. But? The reality is that we can have incredibly great and advantageous relationships with each other and North, South and Central American nations. But the USA has to stop being bad second rate copy cats of all these horrific invading crazy empires from England (UK), Spain, Portugal, France, Holland, the USA...it is terrible. Just allow the Caribbean islands to be free and develop on their own and with being able to adopt interesting and good policies that favor their own interests. Not the ones who live thousands of miles away and don't care about the locals. It is not going to make things better.


I just look at the past patterns of previous civilizations and I strongly wonder if America is just beginning on it's road to Empire, not ending it. Someday, I think Germany and Britain might well have the fate of Puerto Rico, for example, America ruling over all the Western Civilization. I hope not, Empires (or attempted but failed Empires) don't usually end well.
#15081129
jimjam wrote:I am a capitalist who is against predatory capitalism. Predatory capitalism I doubt has ever been a topic of discussion on the Fox Fake News juggernaut.

Tucker Carlson bashes predatory capitalism all the time.
By Sivad
#15081133
blackjack21 wrote:Tucker Carlson bashes predatory capitalism all the time.


It's both completely :lol: and absolutely :knife: that the best political commentary by far in the MSM as well as the larger independent online media is coming from a dork rightwing WASP on FOX news.
#15081181
blackjack21 wrote:Tucker Carlson bashes predatory capitalism all the time.


I am not very familiar with the man other than to have heard that he seems to be Fox's "voice of dissent".
#15081210
jimjam wrote:I am not very familiar with the man other than to have heard that he seems to be Fox's "voice of dissent".

Tonight, he blasted 3M for selling masks to foreign countries and making Florida take a backseat. Apparently, 3M has some limited distributors and some countries come in and pay them cash. In some respects, I understand 3M's point. The government always pays, but they tend to pay way late even on net-30 terms.

Tucker was blasting a hedge fund guy the other night for talking down Hilton stock and then making a huge profit buying it.

He's blasted the North Carolina senator, Richard Burr, etc.

I think you actually might like him, but he's on right before Hannity so you'd need to change the channel immediately.
#15081213
jimjam wrote:I am not very familiar with the man other than to have heard that he seems to be Fox's "voice of dissent".


On a side note, this is why I think the West is better. Even control freaks among them agree that a voice of dissent must exist.
#15081441
Patrickov wrote:On a side note, this is why I think the West is better. Even control freaks among them agree that a voice of dissent must exist.



So, dissent and being able to criticise authority without getting thrown in jail, are part of the accountability equation. It is not so much that the West is better, as this accountability exists in Eastern nation’s like Taiwan and S Korea, but that political accountability matters. Western countries would suck as much as mainland China if they lost it. Which is why I am critical of political correctness and big tech censorship.


Let me present a theoretical position to explain the importance of political accountability.


Consider the subsistence strategies of nomandic versus agricultural communities.

Nomads collect or hunt their resources and consume those resources almost immediately without significant storage. We can call this an immediate return economy. Property rights are restricted to what one needs and can carry.

Farmers must grow, then harvest their resources. To survive until next harvest, they must store resources. Storage and land use requires more elaborate property rights to ensure those who did the work get to enjoy the benefits of that labour. Otherwise they wouldn’t bother and a farm system could not exist. We can call this a delay return economy.

The other thing a farming economy needs is to be able to control distribution of the stored resources, if the surplus is to be used to maintain non food producing activities. Someone has to be responsible for controlling that distribution of resources.

The person or group who is responsible for deciding how stored resources are distributed has considerable power, as everyone else is specifically depended on them for subsistence.


This is politics as we know it: who gets what, when and how.


Political theories must address this question of distribution. However, there is a second question which is not always addressed by political theories: what method shall there be to hold accountable those would make the choices on how resources are to be distributed


The rule of law (everyone has the same law applied to them and no one is exempt)

Liberalism and limits of government power, eg: rights

Democracy

Free, independent media

Intellectual freedom


They are all attempts to hold accountable those with the power. Without such restraints, the powerful can do whatever they like to whomever they like. Those subject to that power have no recourse. This situation is what leads to unjust governance.

In my view the basic failure of ideologies such as communism and fascism is that there is no consideration of how leaders could be made accountable for what they do with their power. A political ideology must attempt to answer both questions of how to distribute resources and also how power is to be accountable. Only liberal democracy, amongst current ideologies originating from the enlightenment, makes a serious attempt at answering both.
#15081477
@foxdemon the problem I have with liberalism is a lack of ethics and a lack of consistency with regards to capitalism. For me? Cappies fail to acknowledge that having owners versus nonowners and having class-based systems will fail to prevent abuse and collapse. The system is innately flawed. You can't have a constitution that is radical and about equality and rights, and an economic system about subjugation and lack of rights. It is contradictory. So you wind up paying lip service to democratic ideals that don't work overtime. You got elitism and privilege and a return to class conflict. It will result in violence and instability. Even if you believe liberalism is the solution? Unless you take capitalism by the throat and change its foundations to the point that it is not capitalism anymore? You got a change. For now? inequality is going to have severe consequences. The liberalism is equally corrupt or even worse than the conservatives. It will be discarded. Got to stop the contradiction that is leading to the collapse.
#15081520
Tainari88 wrote:@foxdemon the problem I have with liberalism is a lack of ethics and a lack of consistency with regards to capitalism. For me? Cappies fail to acknowledge that having owners versus nonowners and having class-based systems will fail to prevent abuse and collapse. The system is innately flawed. You can't have a constitution that is radical and about equality and rights, and an economic system about subjugation and lack of rights. It is contradictory. So you wind up paying lip service to democratic ideals that don't work overtime. You got elitism and privilege and a return to class conflict. It will result in violence and instability. Even if you believe liberalism is the solution? Unless you take capitalism by the throat and change its foundations to the point that it is not capitalism anymore? You got a change. For now? inequality is going to have severe consequences. The liberalism is equally corrupt or even worse than the conservatives. It will be discarded. Got to stop the contradiction that is leading to the collapse.

do you think the human race will survive ?
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