" Trump Has Sabotaged America’s Coronavirus Response" - Page 67 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15081151
blackjack21 wrote:
1000 Americans died before Obama declared an emergency.



Politfact says that is false.

"Not only is this timeline wrong, but the story and headline eliminate important facts and distort others, imparting a false narrative..."

"Obama’s acting director of health and human services declared H1N1 a public health emergency on April 26, 2009.

That was when only 20 cases of H1N1 — and no deaths — around the country had been confirmed."

Seriously, you need better lies.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/mar/04/facebook-posts/president-obama-declared-h1n1-public-health-emerge/
#15081152
Zionist Nationalist wrote:I agree. abortions should be allowed I dont really get the republican obsession with anti abortion even the non religious Republicans are against it. its counterproductive for two main reasons 1. most abortions are non white 2.in a democratic country you cant force women to give births to unwanted children its their body and they gonna have to raise the child not you


Lolling at the racism in point 1, but the anti-abortion movement grew out of the same cultural movement that blew up private schooling during integration. The workaround for that was private religious schools, and as people stopped being angry at desegregation the political leaders shifted the focus to anti-abortion.

It's a relatively young political movement, regardless of what stances on abortion were prior to that.
#15081157
Julian658 wrote:As I said before the Asians did better job because they are closer to previous epidemics.
They do a better job because the people don't automatically think the government is out to get them. Also social solidarity, as I mentioned earlier.

Julian658 wrote:I have said at nauseam, I do not like Trump. I am a centrist!
You are not a centrist when it comes to Trump, and aside from a few words you defend him with total conviction. You have been defending Trump in this whole thread. How can you say you don't like Trump, if you feel the overwhelming need to defend him all the time?

@Julian658 :roll: I may appear to be a lefty(only by the wonky American standard where you are either black or white) because I think people should be taken care of, but in any country other than the USA, I am a centrist, leaning towards conservative. In Canada that was what is called a Progressive Conservative.
#15081158
Godstud wrote:
You are not a centrist when it comes to Trump, and aside from a few words you defend him with total conviction. You have been defending Trump in this whole thread. How can you say you don't like Trump, if you feel the overwhelming need to defend him all the time?



We have a number of posters that say this or that, but constantly defend the indefensible.

You know, this is prob just me, but does this forum seem even weirder than usual?
#15081168
late wrote:We were in a race, and Trump amputated the head off the runner.

Of course they messed up.

I strongly doubt that the pandemic response team would have had any effect on the CDC messing up its tests. This was an error by the CDC staff who actually produced these kits.

Furthermore, as far as I can tell, the PRT was part of the CDC which is subordinate to the FDA, so it's difficult to see how coordination within the CDC would have changed the FDA creating limited test availability.

Finally, what did the PRT actually do before it was disbanded? They don't seem to have looked into the procedures which would kick in in case of an emergency and which have created the bottleneck. It seems to me that it would have been one of the most important things for them to ascertain whether federal institutions and regulations would be up to the task if they had to respond quickly and decisively to a pandemic threat.

From the article I already linked to in my last reply to you:
January 31: HHS Secretary Alex Azar declared a public health emergency, which initiated a new requirement—labs that wanted to conduct their own coronavirus tests must first obtain an emergency use authorization (EUA) from the FDA. According to reporting from Reuters, the emergency declaration made it more difficult to expand testing outside the CDC:

That’s because the declaration required diagnostic tests developed by individual labs, such as those at hospitals or universities, to undergo greater scrutiny than in non-emergencies—presumably because the stakes are higher.

“Paradoxically, it increased regulations on diagnostics while it created an easier pathway for vaccines and antivirals,” said Dr. Amesh Adalja, a senior scholar at the Johns Hopkins University Center for Health Security. “There was a real foul-up with diagnostic tests that has exposed a flaw in the United States’ pandemic response plan.”

This was the moment when the wheels came off the bus. Keith Jerome, the lab director at the University of Washington Virology Lab in Seattle, told The New Yorker how perverse this heightened standard was from a public health perspective:

From the point of view of the academic labs, we look at it, like, when there’s any run-of-the-mill virus that people are used to, they trust us to make a test. But when there’s a big emergency and we feel like we should really do something, it gets hard. It’s a little frustrating. We’ve got a lot of scientists and doctors and laboratory personnel who are incredibly good at making assays. What we’re not so good at is figuring out all the forms and working with the bureaucracy of the federal government.

EUAs were intended to speed up the normal authorization process. But in this case, labs that were already conducting their own coronavirus tests needed to cease operations until they were granted an EUA. By declaring a public health emergency and not waiving EUA requirements, the FDA was actually slowing down the testing process.

Did they look into this and raise the alarm?
#15081169
Godstud wrote:They do a better job because the people don't automatically think the government is out to get them. Also social solidarity, as I mentioned earlier.

You are not a centrist when it comes to Trump, and aside from a few words you defend him with total conviction. You have been defending Trump in this whole thread. How can you say you don't like Trump, if you feel the overwhelming need to defend him all the time?

@Julian658 :roll: I may appear to be a lefty(only by the wonky American standard where you are either black or white) because I think people should be taken care of, but in any country other than the USA, I am a centrist, leaning towards conservative. In Canada that was what is called a Progressive Conservative.

You are quite tribal. You are 100% right! I hear you bro! No room for a discussion. I seem to defend Trump because the alternative is much worse. The Democrats do not have a candidate and the party has drifted into the far left and group identity politics.
#15081174
fokker wrote:In Italy, Spain and now soon the UK too nobody is talking about having the government removed for failure to deal with the pandemic. You need to come to terms with Trump being the US president now, you need to put aside your hate for him and cooperate.


To him, this is just one of the many failures (or even crimes) of the Trump government, and to be fair, another election is coming, so he has every reason to ask for a change of government, at least through the upcoming election.

At least he does not need to be like Hongkongers, who probably have no chance of change of government other than violent uprising -- I expect that if anti-CCP forces dominate the legislative council after the election, the government will simply disband it.
#15081175
Julian658 wrote:You are quite tribal.
Very rich, coming from you. :knife: You label anyone who disagrees with you a "lefty". :roll: Back to feelings and not facts, eh?

Julian658 wrote:I seem to defend Trump because the alternative is much worse.
:lol: No, it is not. It's called accepting reality. Trump might be an OK businessman, but he is a shitty leader and President.

Julian658 wrote:The Democrats do not have a candidate and the party has drifted into the far left and group identity politics.
I don't give a rat's ass about the Democrats, which invalidates this part of your rant. This is not a discussion about them, as they do not have a sitting President. If they had one doing as poor a job as Trump, in handling this crisis, I'd be going off on them.

Julian658 wrote:Do you think a man that thinks he is a woman should compete with biological women in sporting events?
This is off-topic and completely unrelated to the thread.
#15081176
Julian658 wrote:POD: Show that you know what is going on in America.


I have.

You have not shown that you have any idea.

You cannot even quote the text that supposedly shows that Trump actually did anything.

You live in another country and make statements that are based on assumptions.


No. I make statements based on facts.

You are posting as a pragmatist socialist, I get that. The end justifies the means.


It is impressive how little you know about me.
#15081178
Julian658 wrote:
Do you think a man that thinks he is a woman should compete with biological women in sporting events?



That is a valid question.

No, I don't think that should be allowed, at least for those that started as male.

Cultural change doesn't usually happen quickly, this will get squared away eventually.
#15081180
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:
Did they look into this and raise the alarm?



Trump did a number of things that didn't help. Like saying it was a hoax, or that it would be gone by April..

I don't have an answer, at this time, about how things played out in the inner workings of the government. I'll keep looking.
#15081186
late wrote:You know, this is prob just me, but does this forum seem even weirder than usual?


Seriously, I think not.

What I observe is that anti-Trumpers actually contributed to the sentiment as well. Some of them seem to fail to recognise that, Trump's rise is at least partly a reactionary response, i.e. some voter's negative reaction towards the Democrats, and at least some of them know how bad Trump is. These anti-Trumper's continuous rubbing-in-the-face statements (with proof, it must be said) that "Trump is bad" only intensified this negative reaction.

On a side note,
1. Biden's rise to candidacy may further trigger such negative reaction. I do hope my prediction wrong, but it ultimately depends on how high-order Democrats actually think.
2. I have also become more cautious in expressing my feelings towards China because I find it attracting negative reactions, sometimes even from moderates.
#15081188
late wrote:Trump did a number of things that didn't help. Like saying it was a hoax, or that it would be gone by April..

I don't have an answer, at this time, about how things played out in the inner workings of the government. I'll keep looking.

I already acknowledged that Trump didn't help and even edited my post to make it clear that I think this was serious. As I said then, he almost certainly could have kicked the FDA into gear. That doesn't change the fact that your institutions messed up spectacularly though and I'm not sure what purpose is served if they are omitted from criticism. This is also a question of competence at the institutional level.

I posted an article which gives an overview of events and how a conflation of circumstance was created by the CDC and FDA together with the laws on the books that automatically applied in an emergency situation. It has plenty of links to other sources, but if you don't like the publication I've seen others (not right wing) which have made similar points and a Google search will easily produce them.
#15081195
late wrote:That is a valid question.

No, I don't think that should be allowed, at least for those that started as male.

Cultural change doesn't usually happen quickly, this will get squared away eventually.


You are making my point. Those that started as male???? What do you mean? All women start as women! Men start as men! And there is a 0.3% with gender dysphoria. The brains does not work perfectly in all.

What cultural change you have in mind? One where men with testicles and XY chromosomes are women? That is why I left the Democratic Party, it is going loony.
#15081196
Patrickov wrote:Seriously, I think not.

What I observe is that anti-Trumpers actually contributed to the sentiment as well. Some of them seem to fail to recognise that, Trump's rise is at least partly a reactionary response, i.e. some voter's negative reaction towards the Democrats, and at least some of them know how bad Trump is. These anti-Trumper's continuous rubbing-in-the-face statements (with proof, it must be said) that "Trump is bad" only intensified this negative reaction.

On a side note,
1. Biden's rise to candidacy may further trigger such negative reaction. I do hope my prediction wrong, but it ultimately depends on how high-order Democrats actually think.
2. I have also become more cautious in expressing my feelings towards China because I find it attracting negative reactions, sometimes even from moderates.


You are spot on my friend.

[size=Arial Black]Poll: 15% of Sanders supporters will vote for Trump if Biden is nominee; 80% would back Biden[/size]

If former Vice President Joe Biden secures the Democratic presidential nomination, 15% of Sen. Bernie Sanders' supporters will vote for President Donald Trump's reelection, according to an ABC News/Washington Post poll.

If accurate, that would represent a slightly larger defection than occurred after the bitter battle between Sanders and former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton in 2016, when 12% of Sanders voters broke for Trump in the general election.

The good news for Biden is that in spring 2016, an ABC News poll found 20% of Sanders supporters said they would vote for Trump over Clinton, and far fewer ended up doing so. And 80% of Sanders' supporters said they would back Biden over Trump, according to the poll.

The 15% who said they plan to vote for Trump represents just 6% of Democrats and voters who lean Democratic, according to ABC News. Trump won 8% of Democrats in 2016.

Analysis:Trump's approval rising amid coronavirus crisis. What could it mean for November?

Biden holds a more than 300-delegate lead over Sanders, who has said he intends to continue his fight for the nomination despite the tough odds of overcoming Biden's lead. The ABC/Post poll found Biden with a 16-percentage-point advantage (55%-39%) over Sanders among registered Democrats and independents who lean Democratic.

In a hypothetical general election matchup, Biden narrowly topped Trump by 2 points (49%-47%), which is well within the poll's 3.5-percentage-point margin of error. That signals a dramatic tightening of the race from October, when an ABC/Post poll found the former vice president with a 17-point lead over Trump among registered voters.

Fox News poll:Biden leads Trump by nine points

Supporter enthusiasm for Biden is lower than Trump
Trump held a solid advantage over Biden in voter enthusiasm. Fifty-three percent of Trump's backers said they would be "very enthusiastic" to cast their votes for him, while 24% of Biden's supporters said the same for their candidate. That is the lowest for any Democratic presidential candidate in 20 years in an ABC/Post poll. Among Sanders supporters who said they back Biden in November, just 9% said they were very enthusiastic about doing so.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 936124001/
#15081197
OK Julian. Let's put to rest your nonsense about Godstud. As an American you do not have access to a single news source he does not have on the same computer we are both staring at now. Fox, CNN, MSNBC, WSJ, Guardian, PBS, Daily Standard; all are just as accessible to him as they are to you. In fact, he has access to sources you have obviously ignored. The foreign press is not automatically wrong. Sometimes they have the objectivity that can only be acquired by what we called in the military "the 1000 meter view".

He is not, what you would describe as a liberal. In fact, he(or was) is a policeman of sorts. He is a man who has, through his own good offices, created enough wealth to live abroad and build a whole new life for himself. Of all of the folks on POFO he is one of the best informed.

Now. Here is a direct answer to your question.

@Julian658 If you are president---- would you have closed the US border, impose social distancing, command corporations to build ventilators, stop the economy, and test the entire country in early January when there were no Corona cases in the USA?


Very bad question. So let's take it apart.
If you are president


If I was the president of course I would have done FAR more than Trump has done. Far more. Why? Because it is in my education and training to have studied events like this for a very long time. I know what is required and would have acted very quickly. I do not fault President Trump for not knowing what to do. I fault him for ignoring the people who do know what to do.
...would you have closed the US border,
Yes. I would have interdicted traffic from every area with cases. It is not a 100% solution and only works for those who are honest enough to play by the rules but I would have tried. Trump did the right thing when he excluded travel from China.

..impose social distancing,
Yes. Far sooner than Trump did. In fact, he has yet to impose anything. I would have used existing law and imposed social distancing and quarantine where appropriate.

...command corporations to build ventilators
Yes. And I would have taken control of that production and sent the ventilators where my experts said they were most needed. The absolute cluster fuck of Trump's inaction and leaving states to compete (based on price) for ventilators without regard to need is sickening. That alone should have Trump replaced by congress. It is a human tragedy laid at the feet of one man and one man only. THERE SHOULD BE NO FREE MARKET FOR VENTILATORS IN THE US AT ALL! The should all be sent to the feds for distribution by need.

Here is where you get into stupid questions. First you got this backward.

stop the economy, and test the entire country in early January when there were no Corona cases in the USA?


I would have begun massive testing as soon as possible with an wartime emergency rate of production of testing kits. All kinds. By long before now we would also have hundreds of thousands of antibody test kits. They are easy to make and we would not only know how many people have had the disease without knowing but we would also have thousands and perhaps tens of thousands of people with immunity to work with patients and provide plasma treatments.

THEN THEN THEN

...Stop the economy


What caused the disordered crash of the stock market more than anything else was uncertainly based upon the inaction of the federal government and the OBVIOUS disinformation put out by the President and his sycophants. IF the federal government had acted quickly and with authority the certain slowdown of the economy could have been controlled. The stimulus program was far to little and far to late. The president could have used emergency powers to slow the crash of the market. He could have pumped this two trillion into the economy, through the consumer, which could have slowed the decline much faster. But the fact remains that stock markets crash on uncertainty faster than they do on bad news.

... and test the entire country in early January when there were no Corona cases in the USA?


We don't know that. We did not test anyone. We were not watching. Many people may have died of the "flu" or "viral pneumonia" before the first case was tested. But. IF we had robust surveillance and testing we could have done far more effective contact tracing which could have dramatically slowed the spread of the disease.

Julian658 wrote:

Do you think a man that thinks he is a woman should compete with biological women in sporting events?


You do not know how stupid this question is. Not because it is an invalid question but because, at this moment in history, it is one of the word's all time most important who gives a fuck. I don't care about this right now. I don't want my government even thinking about it. I don't give a fuck about the Second Amendment or the Ten Commandments at the courthouse. I don't care about affirmative action, states rights or the price of hookers on 10th avenue. Wake up son. People are dying in vast numbers. We are about to lose more people in the next few months that we lost in four years of world war. And you want to talk about transgendered athletes? You need to get your head out of your ass.

This country is facing the greatest threat it has ever faced. Bar none. Innocent people are dying a horrible death and we are doing fuck all to save them. Trump should order every textile factory in the country to make PPE. He should have every machine shop, factory and supply company making ventilators and other medical equipment. Every construction company in the country should be building hospital beds in every city town and village. And the government should be paying. We should be rapidly training technicians to staff these hospitals and clinics. We could train 100,000 nursing assistants with specific skills to treat this disease in 8 weeks. The army could EASILY do it. We could even institute the draft if necessary to do it. And every pharmaceutical company that is making boutique and expensive erectile dysfunction and repackaged psoriasis remedies would be making tons of any drug that even showed promise. Even before clinical trials are finished we would have millions of doses and if we have to throw them away, oh well. Shit happens.

And we could stop this disease in its tracks with strict social distancing. We can force the states to do it by withholding all federal aid until they do.

And what if some of this is overreacting? Well. We save a couple of hundred thousand lives and get a big bill for it. But we are left with a robust capacity to handle this when it comes roaring back. And it will.

So drop your childish bullshit about transgendered athletes and cats with PTSD. We are facing a serious situation and we need serious people to handle it. Do you understand that youngster?

And that is what it is like to get your ass handed to you by someone who learned leadership at the tip of a drill sergeants boot.
#15081198
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:I already acknowledged that Trump didn't help and even edited my post to make it clear that I think this was serious. As I said then, he almost certainly could have kicked the FDA into gear. That doesn't change the fact that your institutions messed up spectacularly though and I'm not sure what purpose is served if they are omitted from criticism. This is also a question of competence at the institutional level.

I posted an article which gives an overview of events and how a conflation of circumstance was created by the CDC and FDA together with the laws on the books that automatically applied in an emergency situation. It has plenty of links to other sources, but if you don't like the publication I've seen others (not right wing) which have made similar points and a Google search will easily produce them.


The question that begs an answer is: Was Trump supposed to close the borders, force private corporations to build ventilators, mandate forced social isolation, and do global testing in January 2020? Truthfully, I don't think any Western leader would have done so. This is something the Asians would have done as they are way more inclined to respect these viruses. I traveled in January and saw tons of Asians wearing masks in the airports. No one else used masks!
#15081200
@Kaiserschmarrn @Julian658

Everything starts with the leadership. The buck doesn't stop with government institutions here in the US. The buck stops with Trump. He's the one in charge. He is supposed to be a leader. There is on old saying that goes "The fish rots from the head" and the head of the fish is Trump. It has nothing to do with our government institutions. It has EVERYTHING to do with our country's leaders. And that's where it all starts. Not with our government agencies.
#15081201
I don't know why any of you are engaging with Julian when he is a lazy and shitty troll. Like he's not even trying. If he is trying then he's 17 or something.

Honestly this forum needs a rule about how if you're not going to engage in good faith you should at least do so in a way that's entertaining or thought provoking. It would absolutely be arbitrary, but that's how good forums are run. You make arbitrary decisions to encourage better posting.

Kaiserschmarrn wrote:I strongly doubt that the pandemic response team would have had any effect on the CDC messing up its tests. This was an error by the CDC staff who actually produced these kits.


The Pandemic Response Team Consists of:

-The MyPillow Guy
-Mike Pence, a man who thinks HIV is a punishment for being gay
-Sycophants with no talent besides making sure a narcissist doesn't blame them for something

Like, who gives a shit what the "Pandemic Response Team" has to say?

Also the CDC is under the Executive branch, and the president chose to develop our own tests so American businesses could get rich rather than buy whatever other countries were selling.
#15081207
@Kaiserschmarrn

Ohh and the pandemic response team is very important and could have saved countless lives. They are worth the cost and then some. But Trump shut them down and got rid of the pandemic team. Whose fault was that?
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