[Rancid]

For those of you have have air condition systems at home. I suggest you buy your filters now, because people will start buying them up to make filters for home made face masks. If you can't replace your filter it will result in damage to your system, and the summer is coming so don't get fucked over by people stock piling on more filters than they need.

[Stormsmith]

@Julian658

You're right, but I'll add they also have the new gear too. My husband been going down 2 or 3 times a year. He has seen Dr's down there respective his diabetes. He walked into a clinic, explained his situation and with in minutes, a team of four specialists saw him, and did the works. Here, he had seen our drs, one at a time, which took maybe two months ( some of that was his own shedule), but their system is definitely superior. They also have Covid 19, brought in by an Italian tourist plus a boat load that President Trump turned away. Their doctors are one per block, and the drs are scrambling to test and contain

[Finfinder]

This is so stupid the only place to blame is where is started and the lies and lack of urgency from China and the human condition. Too think that you can tell humans who are used to being free to stay in their homes do nothing but sit and wait and watch their live deteriorate away is illogical. We need to stop expecting that people will listen and attack this situation from that understanding. Sure 3/4 of us play by the rules but we knew before and we know now everyone doesn't.

In hindsight they probably should have declared martial law from the start but then again we are not communists and no leader would have had the foresight to do that. Many would think that when you take away everyone's freedoms you might as well be dead anyway.

[Rancid]

This is so stupid the only place to blame is where is started and the lies and lack of urgency from China and the human condition. Too think that you can tell humans who are used to being free to stay in their homes do nothing but sit and wait and watch their live deteriorate away is illogical. We need to stop expecting that people will listen and attack this situation from that understanding. Sure 3/4 of us play by the rules but we knew before and we know now everyone doesn't.

In hindsight they probably should have declared martial law from the start but then again we are not communists and no leader would have had the foresight to do that. Many would think that when you take away everyone's freedoms you might as well be dead anyway.

There's plenty of blame to go around. Sure, China committed the original sin (by not investing the public health system of Wuhan or banning wet markets), but that doesn't excuse everyone else's inaction.

[Finfinder]

There's plenty of blame to go around. Sure, China committed the original sin (by not investing the public health system of Wuhan or banning wet markets), but that doesn't excuse everyone else's inaction.

That is exactly what the core message of my post said.

Governments and people of power can make any rules they want that doesn't mean people will follow them. Unless you point a gun at their heads. When we have personal responsibility, cooperation, and people working together with a positive message, humans can do amazing things.

Personal preference but in IMHO focusing on the negativity isn't a productive head space for anybody.

[maz]

This is so stupid the only place to blame is where is started and the lies and lack of urgency from China and the human condition.

Here were how some Chinese were taking advantage of the human condition in Milan.

Nancy Pelosi also said for Americans to go enjoy Chinese New Year celebrations.

[Rancid]

That is exactly what the core message of my post said.

Governments and people of power can make any rules they want that doesn't mean people will follow them. Unless you point a gun at their heads. When we have personal responsibility, cooperation, and people working together with a positive message, humans can do amazing things.

Personal preference but in IMHO focusing on the negativity isn't a productive head space for anybody.

That's what my post said too!

[Finfinder]

That's what my post said too!

Maybe there should be a little more that kind of thing around here.

[Drlee]

Chinese built stuff can be of crappy quality. They are not at the level of SK or Japan. China is what Japan was in 1960 with regards to manufacturing.

This is simply untrue. Chinese made goods are every bit as good as ours. Further, much of what the produce is produced for American Companies and using American specifications.

International standards for much of what is produced has made items made everywhere comparable. For example. Nikon's best cameras are made in Thailand to Japanese specifications and are every bit as good as Japanese cameras.

You really need to go to a high technology store and look where stuff is made. Better than that. Guess where your state of the art Iphone is made?

Besides. Fighting this virus does not require high tech solutions other than some models of ventilators.

[Donna]

Indeed. If it seems like cheaply made goods from China are flowing into your country, you can blame the cost-saving specs created by suppliers for Western retailers. It's not as though the Chinese are just putting a deluge of plastics and electronics on the global market as if they're selling rugs in a bazaar.

[Rancid]

@Donna

Is it time to raise the white flag on the virus?

[Rancid]

Note on the Chinese manufacturing comments going around:
While I agree that many Chinese goods can be of good quality. They do have higher rates of quality control problems than other countries in Asia (or anywhere else for that matter). I've seen some really bad practices with my own eyes, as I have toured factories in China. I've also been to factories in Malaysia, which were much better.

China does have a history of doing stupid shit with their goods, for export and for domestic use. For example, they deliberately (seriously, seriously, they did this on purpose!) added melamine (look up melamine poisoning) to some domestic brand baby formulas some years back. To this day, the Chinese seek out European or North American baby formula for that reason. Another thing is higher levels of heavy metals found in toys made in China compared to just about anywhere else, many of which get exported. This is not the result of specifications, this is the result of shit quality control and little oversight. The blame cannot be solely placed on specifications from foreign companies. This shit happens with a lot of their domestic brands, and also with the stuff they export. Last, there's a reason Chinese cars aren't sold in the western developed nations. It's because they are shit in terms of safety, and that is not due to foreign specifications since these are domestic brands. They most definitely have looser standards in China for manufacturing and safety, this is indisputable fact.

All of that said, yes there is a lot of high quality manufacturing there too, I've seen that with my own eyes as well.

I'm in the market to buy a new guitar, and I can tell you, within the guitar industry, Chinese made guitars are pure shit. They are typically sub $200-$250, which is the shit bottom of the barrel. People don't even recommended them as beginner guitars. That said, I think this due to shit specifications from the American/European/Japanese manufacturers. Thus, I wouldn't blame shit guitars on bad Chinese manufacturing practices. That really rests on the shoulders of the foreign specifications. It's so bad that you can filter out China as a country of origin when shopping for guitars. Mexico, on the other hands, makes REALLY good guitars. Easily as good as the American made, at honestly, half the price.

Ultimately, like everything, it's a mixed bag. Life is gray, not black or white.

I wouldn't know what their quality control is like for medical goods. Let's hope it's good, but those knock off covid tests don't inspire confidence.

[Julian658]

This is simply untrue. Chinese made goods are every bit as good as ours. Further, much of what the produce is produced for American Companies and using American specifications.

International standards for much of what is produced has made items made everywhere comparable. For example. Nikon's best cameras are made in Thailand to Japanese specifications and are every bit as good as Japanese cameras.

You really need to go to a high technology store and look where stuff is made. Better than that. Guess where your state of the art Iphone is made?

Besides. Fighting this virus does not require high tech solutions other than some models of ventilators.

China can build great stuff, no doubt. But, I am talking about the industry where they copy and sell at a lower price. FOr example the copy Gibson guitars that on the surface look great, but are made of cheap low quality parts. It is not that they cannot, they surely can build anything.

[Julian658]

I'm in the market to buy a new guitar, and I can tell you, within the guitar industry, Chinese made guitars are pure shit. They are typically sub $200-$250, which is the shit bottom of the barrel. People don't even recommended them as beginner guitars. That said, I think this due to shit specifications from the American/European/Japanese manufacturers. Thus, I wouldn't blame shit guitars on bad Chinese manufacturing practices. That really rests on the shoulders of the foreign specifications. It's so bad that you can filter out China as a country of origin when shopping for guitars. Mexico, on the other hands, makes REALLY good guitars. Easily as good as the American made, at honestly, half the price.

Meanwhile Japanese made guitars are awesome!

[Rancid]

Meanwhile Japanese made guitars are awesome!

They are, they are. I am not filtering them out in my search.

[Julian658]

@Julian658

You're right, but I'll add they also have the new gear too. My husband been going down 2 or 3 times a year. He has seen Dr's down there respective his diabetes. He walked into a clinic, explained his situation and with in minutes, a team of four specialists saw him, and did the works. Here, he had seen our drs, one at a time, which took maybe two months ( some of that was his own shedule), but their system is definitely superior. They also have Covid 19, brought in by an Italian tourist plus a boat load that President Trump turned away. Their doctors are one per block, and the drs are scrambling to test and contain

I agree, that they are excellent, but they don't exactly have state of the art technology for all. I suspect tourists get the state of the art treatment. You need to watch You Tube and see the videos by actual tourists that traveled outside the touristy areas. Cuba has more docs per capita than any country in the world. But, docs make less than waiters working in tourist restaurants. This is not a knock on Cubans, this is a knock on their system.

[Godstud]

@Julian658 I am not anti-American. I am anti-DUMB American. BIG difference.

As an example of leadership, the Thai Health PM is looking at a 24 hour curfew and lockdown, despite only having 2,000 COVID cases nationwide. We mostly only see his health minister and doctors, as he's stepped back to let them be the informed leadership. Right now there's a 7PM to 7AM lockdown, but the streets are quiet, anyways, with only a few stupid asses going out(some monks-at least masked- and teenaged boys playing basketball). This is going to be clamped down on very soon, I hope.

The cases have spread from Bangkok due to people going home with no jobs, but they've been tracking and quarantining people who do so, with check ins by clinic workers and testing.

This is interesting:
https://covidtracker.5lab.co/#

That's a better response than the USA has had. I know, it's only 68 million people and not 320 million. It's a developing country, and not a rich one. Their healthcare system is more socialized than the USA one, too.

That USA is behind the ball, even compared to Thailand, is absurd for a powerful , rich country like the USA. It's a prime example of failure of leadership, and not stupidity on the part of Americans. You get get dumb people everywhere who think the virus can't hurt them, or their loved ones.

[foxdemon]

Your impression that they are somewhat similar about some things does not suggest they would handle this specific crisis in the exact same way, and it ignores how other social democrat governments have handled it.

Somewhat similar! Bernie idealises Scandinavian social democracy. It is entirely reasonable to expect he would make the same mistakes given he would hold the same misplaced moral reductionism. But let’s not focus on two examples of morally arrogant implementations of social democracy.


Please cite other examples of social democracies responding effectively to this crisis.

He could have changed it with a single executive order saying that testing and treatment would be free for everyone.

Sure. Do you think he failed to do so in order to deliberately sabotage the US response to this virus?

Your opinion about whether or not Trump is the victim is irrelevant.

You have an odd fixation on victimhood.

Yet it is clearly the case that all that is wrong in America is now blamed on Trump even if the problems predated his presidency. So that is scapegoating.

If you think that makes Trump a victim is up to you to decide.

I think part of the problem is this weird and unrealistic idea that people have that Trump is not part of the establishment. He is.

Why do you think there is a claim that Trump is outside the Establishment? Obama was also part of the establishment. But as President, he has to overcome establishment resistance if he wants to push through any policy that doesn’t suit even a portion of it. In practice there was much Obama couldn’t do.


Do you think a president is so powerful that he can override the rest of the establishment ?

[Stormsmith]

I agree, that they are excellent, but they don't exactly have state of the art technology for all. I suspect tourists get the state of the art treatment. You need to watch You Tube and see the videos by actual tourists that traveled outside the touristy areas. Cuba has more docs per capita than any country in the world. But, docs make less than waiters working in tourist restaurants. This is not a knock on Cubans, this is a knock on their system.

Tourists do get state of the art healthcare which helps support Cuban healthcare, but if someone needs it, they get it.

And yes, doctors earn a pittance but it's the state that pays for it. All states require capital, and with that blockade thingee only 3 country's traded with them: Russia, Canada, and Mexico. President Trump is making it difficult again, because, I'm convinced, Obama wanted to move towards normalizing stuff. So, little money in the national treasury, little wages. It's like that for everyone who works for the state.

[Pants-of-dog]

Somewhat similar! Bernie idealises Scandinavian social democracy. It is entirely reasonable to expect he would make the same mistakes given he would hold the same misplaced moral reductionism. But let’s not focus on two examples of morally arrogant implementations of social democracy.

Sanders may look at the Scandinavian countries for inspiration, but that dies not mean he would uncritically do whatever you and @Julian658 think Sweden is doing.

Please cite other examples of social democracies responding effectively to this crisis.

No. If you wish to argue that Sanders would be bad because his policies are similar to social democracies in general, and these have all been shown to work worse than Trump’s inaction, I think you have the burden of proof of showing that social democracies are generally reacting in the same way.

Sure. Do you think he failed to do so in order to deliberately sabotage the US response to this virus?

No. I doubt he even thinks about the impacts that his actions (and inactions) have on the US response to the virus.

He probably failed to do so because he simply lacks the imagination to implement policy that needs more than 280 characters to write.

You have an odd fixation on victimhood.

Yet it is clearly the case that all that is wrong in America is now blamed on Trump even if the problems predated his presidency. So that is scapegoating.

If you think that makes Trump a victim is up to you to decide.

You misunderstood. You were the one who was fixating on Trump’s victimhood. I merely pointed it out, and also added that it was not worth discussing.

Why do you think there is a claim that Trump is outside the Establishment? Obama was also part of the establishment. But as President, he has to overcome establishment resistance if he wants to push through any policy that doesn’t suit even a portion of it. In practice there was much Obama couldn’t do.

Do you think a president is so powerful that he can override the rest of the establishment ?

In terms of dealing with the Coronavirus outbreak, Trump is definitely Establishment. His support of deregulation for medical insurance, his attempts to repeal Obamacare, his total lack of support for public healthcare, are all a pattern of supporting the private care status quo that has ruled the US medical economy for decades.

For the purposes of this thread, it is incorrect to say that Trump is working against the Establishment.