Why has the public health establishment discouraged people from wearing masks? - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Provision of the two UN HDI indicators other than GNP.
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#15081374
Rugoz wrote:Because the article literally comes to the opposite conclusion.


It doesn't get there through well reasoned, factual analysis, the author totally contradicts his own data and just asserts the non sequitur you're calling a conclusion.

So you have your cloth mask with limited efficiency, probably at the low end for people who make it at home


Not if they put a team of engineers or whatever on it. They could definitely come up with a cheap and effective homemade mask than anyone could make in 30 minutes from common household materials.

that doesn't protect from small particles and doesn't protect your eyes.


doesn't have to be 100% effective, it just a cheap and easy means of reducing transmission by at least some modest but significant amount.

It's easy to see that the added protection can be negated by a mishandling of the mask (especially cloth masks that are not single use) or by a false sense of security and less social distancing.


The Wired article discussed that, all they had to do was educate people in the same way their doing for distancing and hand washing.

Whether wearing cloth masks will reduce transmission rates in a practical setting is completely uncertain.


Not really. The only halfway decent point your article had was that China relies on masks and they haven't proven very effective, but Wired addressed that too by pointing out that masks have been very effective in S Korea and Japan. So maybe the Chinese need better masks or more masks or better mask education.

But I don't expect any wonders from it,


Well wonders aren't required, just some significant reduction in transmission.

not least because most infections happen in private or at work, where people won't wear masks.


People will wear masks at work, I've worked a lot of jobs where I had to wear full respirators for 10 hours straight. If it's company policy then people will wear the masks. At home people will wear masks around vulnerable family members so that's not a problem either.
#15081380
Pants-of-dog wrote:
Do you think the use of masks means we can all go back to work and live as we normally would?


We're going back to work regardless, this lockdown shit is over one way or another within less than a month.
#15081391
Sivad wrote:We're going back to work regardless, this lockdown shit is over one way or another within less than a month.


You did not answer any of the three questions.

@Sivad

There is a limited number of N95 masks. Do you agree or disagree?

The N95 masks are the only ones that would effectively protect a health care worker who is caring for or testing someone with Covid-19. Yes or no?

And a third question, @Sivad :

Do you think the use of masks means we can all go back to work and live as we normally would?
#15081434
There are not enough of N95 masks for everybody so people will have to wear basic cloth face masks only. Their purpose is mostly to limit the spread of infection - it is supposed to limit the areas infected with viral particles instead of being all over the place. They are meant to protect the others and not self.

It will not stop the spread of infection, more drastic measures are needed for that. But it can help countries buy extra time to prepare hospitals, medical personnel, ventilators as rate of spread will be slightly lower.

Reaching R smaller than 1 is not easy with this virus at all. Face masks are still insufficient. The moment restrictions are lessened, R will go up again. To reduce it reliably a very cheap and effective method to detect infected people is needed instead of what we have today.
#15081445
What is notable is the shameless way that the authorities lied about masks. Of course they knew full well that at a later point they might even make masks compulsory in certain situations. The reason they were so blase about lying like this is they knew their was an army of Liberal authoritarians who would try and gaslight the mass of people into disbelieving what they had previously heard. It was the same with 9/11, the only reason that W Bush was happy to make his ridiculous claims about "Nothing to do with Islam" is that he knew there was army of Liberal Islamophiles willing to argue till they were blue in the face to defend this absurd nonsense.

The other thing to notice is how these supposedly radical lefties will close ranks with the establishment when it suits them. Note the way lefties have been completely silent about our occupations of Iraq and Syria at this time. If this crisis is really so serious, why are the forces still there?
Last edited by Rich on 03 Apr 2020 23:07, edited 1 time in total.
#15081452
President Donald Trump said his administration will soon release nationwide recommendations on wearing face masks after initially telling Americans they weren't necessary to prevent the spread of coronavirus based on the WHO's misleading recommendations. Trump said the new guidance would stop short of requiring all Americans to wear face coverings. "I don't think they'll be mandatory because some people don't want to do that," he said, adding that Americans who do want to wear face coverings can "decide for themselves." In China, it was mandatory to wear masks in public and police officers were stopping people without masks.

President Donald Trump is preparing to encourage Americans to wear face coverings, the latest effort to curb the spread of the coronavirus, according to three individuals with knowledge of the planned announcement.

Trump's planned guidance — which two officials said is imminent but not yet finalized — would encourage Americans to use homemade coverings, like cloth masks, scarves or bandannas, when outside the home. Health experts believe that the practice, which is common in nations like Singapore and Japan but unusual in the United States, would reduce the risk of individuals not exhibiting symptoms spreading the disease.

A senior White House official confirmed the planned guidance, but said it would be targeted to Americans in places where the virus is being actively spread and would not apply to everyone. The policy will not be announced on Thursday, the official said.

Officials have spent days debating the planned recommendation, worried about the risk of sending mixed messages on public health, draining health workers' supplies and giving Americans a false sense of security. Experts have cautioned that homemade masks are insufficient to protect the wearer from contracting the coronavirus.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/0 ... rus-162138
#15081466
ThirdTerm wrote:President Donald Trump said his administration will soon release nationwide recommendations on wearing face masks after initially telling Americans they weren't necessary to prevent the spread of coronavirus based on the WHO's misleading recommendations. Trump said the new guidance would stop short of requiring all Americans to wear face coverings. "I don't think they'll be mandatory because some people don't want to do that," he said, adding that Americans who do want to wear face coverings can "decide for themselves." In China, it was mandatory to wear masks in public and police officers were stopping people without masks.



I'm cool with that. I can finally use that scarf I used when I lived in Chicago over 10 years ago. :lol:

I should probably wash it.
#15081536
After months of fake news by authorities and the vast majority of western experts, I think we might now be at a point where we possibly overcompensate in the opposite direction.

Not convinced that just anything that covers your face works. At least there's zero evidence in favour of that theory.
#15081537
“Masks work in both directions,” virologist Julian Tang explained. “If everybody wears a mask, it’s double protection. Even if a mask is not 100 percent sealed, it is still a significant reduction in risk of transmission.”

Dr. Tang is in active collaboration with engineering colleagues around the world (Hong Kong, Singapore, UK, Canada and USA) on aerosol transmission and airflow dynamics related to airborne infection control.
#15082053
Just to clarify my last post, I think overcompensating is still better than what we've had up until now. This was an extraordinary misinformation campaign by what are constantly touted as our most trusted sources.

The mask hunt is on:

BBC wrote:
Coronavirus: US accused of ‘piracy’ over mask ‘confiscation’

The US has been accused of redirecting 200,000 Germany-bound masks for its own use, in a move condemned as "modern piracy". The local government in Berlin said the shipment of US-made masks was "confiscated" in Bangkok. The FFP2 masks, which were ordered by Berlin's police force, did not reach their destination, it said. Andreas Geisel, Berlin's interior minister, said the masks were presumably diverted to the US.

The US company that makes the masks, 3M, has been prohibited from exporting its medical products to other countries under a Korean-War-era law invoked by President Donald Trump. On Friday, Mr Trump said he was using the Defence Production Act to demand that US firms provide more medical supplies to meet domestic demand. "We need these items immediately for domestic use. We have to have them," Mr Trump said at the daily Coronavirus Task Force briefing at the White House. He said US authorities had taken custody of nearly 200,000 N95 respirators, 130,000 surgical masks and 600,000 gloves. He did not say where they were taken into US hands.

Mr Geisel said the diversion of masks from Berlin amounted to an "act of modern piracy", urging the Trump administration to adhere to international trading rules. "This is not how you deal with transatlantic partners," the minister said. "Even in times of global crisis, there should be no wild-west methods."

A 'treasure hunt' for masks

Mr Geisel's comments echo the sentiments of other European officials, who have complained about the buying and diversion practices of the US. In France, for example, regional leaders say they are struggling to secure medical supplies as American buyers outbid them. The president of the Île-de-France region, Valérie Pécresse, compared the scramble for masks to a "treasure hunt". "I found a stock of masks that was available and Americans - I'm not talking about the American government - but Americans, outbid us," Ms Pécresse said. "They offered three times the price and they proposed to pay up-front."

As the coronavirus pandemic worsens, demand for crucial medical supplies, such as masks and respirators, has surged worldwide. Earlier this week, the World Health Organization (WHO) said it was considering changing its guidance on whether people should wear face masks in public. At present, the WHO advises that masks do not provide sufficient protection from infection to justify mass usage. But some countries have taken a different view, including the US. On Friday, Mr Trump announced that the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) will now recommend that Americans use non-medical, cloth face coverings to help prevent the spread of the virus.

The US has 273,880 recorded cases of Covid-19, the highest number in the world by a large margin. Covid-19, the disease caused by coronavirus, has affected more than one million people and killed almost 60,000 globally, the latest figures show.

'Significant humanitarian implications'

In a separate development, 3M said the Trump administration had asked it to stop exporting US-made N95 respirator masks to Canada and Latin America. The request had "significant humanitarian implications", the company warned, and could prompt other countries to act in kind. The company says it manufactures about 100 million N95 masks per month - about a third are made in the US, and the rest produced overseas. President Trump said he had used the Defence Production Act to "hit 3M hard", without providing additional details. The law dates back to 1950 and allows a president to force companies to make products for national defence. Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau told reporters on Friday that "it would be a mistake to create blockages or reduce trade".

#15082082
You wear a mask in order to keep your germs to yourself and prevent spreading them around when in public. This has been common practice in E Asia for decades. The WHO line goes like this;

Keep 2m distance from others, wash your hands, sneeze into a tissue.
What if I strap a tissue to my face?
Complete waste of time, don't bother.
#15082084
So do these people who condemn Trump for using foreign ordered masks to save American lives condemn Winston Churchill for seizing Turkish ships at the beginning of WWI
#15082153
The WHO is in the pocket of the CPC. The CPC put the WHO up to speak against masks because when the outbreak happened they wanted to contain it in China but spread it around the world. Everyone in China are wearing masks. It is said that 5 million people left Wuhan on the day of the outbreak before Wuhan was quarantined. Apparently every single one of them went abroad to Italy, Iran etc. Not one went to some other part of China...? Really? Clearly masks work.
#15082177
Oh, and for all you idiots who can’t be trusted to use gloves properly, (because, you know, we’re all dumb) he’s a surgeon who happens to be into Tik Tok explaining why it’s just getter to go without them and wash your hands.

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/healt ... 4c2e22bf49

The condescension grows stronger everyday :hmm:
#15082197
ness31 wrote:Oh, and for all you idiots who can’t be trusted to use gloves properly, (because, you know, we’re all dumb) he’s a surgeon who happens to be into Tik Tok explaining why it’s just getter to go without them and wash your hands.

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/healt ... 4c2e22bf49

The condescension grows stronger everyday :hmm:


I can believe it, because some people will simply wear gloves for a whole day... what's the point of that? Unless you have supply you can change out every time you engage in a different activity (which you shouldn't because you should just be at home), I'm not sure how effective a glove can be.

Anyway, there's a claim that reusing surgical masks is no good, I wonder why that is, do they wear out and get loose easily?
#15082211
The only advantage of gloves is that while wearing them you are more likely to be aware of unconscious face touching movements and not do it. Also you could also wash the gloves the way you would wash your hands, depending on the gloves. I guess the virus can not get in through the skin so as a barrier it is pointless. A mask is better because it is a barrier for an orifice through which the virus can infect. I suppose they will also want regular cleaning or replacement though.
#15082255
Sivad wrote:Not really. The only halfway decent point your article had was that China relies on masks and they haven't proven very effective, but Wired addressed that too by pointing out that masks have been very effective in S Korea and Japan. So maybe the Chinese need better masks or more masks or better mask education.


That was actually the weakest point in the article. It was an anecdote, not evidence. SK and Japan have done other things besides recommended to wear masks. "Very effective" is a useless term unless you can quantify it.

Sivad wrote:“Masks work in both directions,” virologist Julian Tang explained. “If everybody wears a mask, it’s double protection. Even if a mask is not 100 percent sealed, it is still a significant reduction in risk of transmission.”

Dr. Tang is in active collaboration with engineering colleagues around the world (Hong Kong, Singapore, UK, Canada and USA) on aerosol transmission and airflow dynamics related to airborne infection control.


It was never in question that the infected should wear masks. Unless you can actually supply the entire population with new masks every day, it would be irresponsible to recommend masks to everyone.

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