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#15095510
Julian658 wrote:
Multiculturalism, race identity politics, victimhood, etc leads to tribalism and the next step is violence. That is how it works all over the world.



You're making it sound, though, as if these grassroots political currents are somehow *invalid*, when in fact they're pointing out all of the *shortcomings* of our current civilization / society, which could readily be addressed and remedied.


Julian658 wrote:
The Democratic Party did great things in the 1960-70s.



Like what? Name one thing.


Julian658 wrote:
But, now we are entering a new era. IN the past the hurdles were different such as white only schools, bathrooms, water fountains, neighborhoods, etc. All of those walls have disappeared. Now the hurdles are more esoteric and not clearly delineated. There is a class divide and racial divide and it is a black and white thing.



You don't seem to understand that *class* operates irrespective of all other demographic characteristics. People could be *any* race or ethnicity and yet they're being victimized by police brutality. Thus, it's a *class* problem, because the *wealthy* *aren't* being victimized by the police.


Julian658 wrote:
Other ethnicities in the middle seem to be doing just fine.



This is too vague and meaningless -- you need to be more *specific*, and include references to back up your fatuous opinionating.


Julian658 wrote:
However, the opposite ends of the spectrum do not see eye to eye.



You keep trying to make it sound like it's about *attitudes*, when in fact it's about *realities*.

The point isn't to see 'eye-to-eye' -- it's a *class struggle*, for how society is run. It needs to be run by the *working class*, the ones who do the actual work.


Julian658 wrote:
Racism today is much less than 50 years ago, however, the perception of racism is at an alltime high.



Are killer cops and redlining-from-above not racist enough for you?

I'm not interested in your *fantasies* or candy-coating.


Julian658 wrote:
The young black people in this era feel more oppressed than their grandparents during the Jim Crow era. They are now seeking self segregation and hate everything about America. They are ripe for revolution and all they need is more easy to see palpable oppression like police brutality. The Democrats preach racism as this is their ticket to elected office and economic success.



Okay, no argument on this, but then your political line wavers all over the place, as though you'd rather present your *fantasies* than focus on the *realities*, which you do identify correctly, occasionally.

What do you think about revolution, versus the Democratic Party (and Republicans) -- ?


---


ckaihatsu wrote:
It's not about 'individual talent', because society is now incredibly *socialized*, thanks to the Internet -- it's about *social organization*, preferably without reliance on a mechanical intermediary known as 'the market'.



Julian658 wrote:
I really don't know about that. I suspect I would have done OK in East or West germany if I had lived there. I would find a way to get ahead.



Again, Stalinism is *not* workers-of-the-world socialism.

And you're *personalizing* again -- we don't need *fan fiction* about historical events.


Julian658 wrote:
The same people that were higher ups in the communist party in East Germany adapted quickly to West Germany after the Berlin wall fell. Some people simply know "How to beat around the bush".



These are the political bureaucratic elite, of *any* country.


Julian658 wrote:
Meanwhile low end East Germans with little talent where OK in East germany and the jungle of survival of the fittest in West Germany was not appreciated.



So you're acknowledging that the Western market system is not streets-paved-with-gold.


Julian658 wrote:
This is a massive problem and it has to do with the natural hierarchy of competence. America has promoted race identity forever and recently multiculturalism. This has lead to tribalism and violence.



No, the current social ills *cannot* be squarely blamed on identity politics -- you've mentioned *class* issues, and you should *stick* to that instead of meandering about. There's no 'natural hierarchy' in society when there's *class elitism*, or social status by *wealth*.


Julian658 wrote:
Yeah, nut add skin color and it is more volatile. I suspect that if we ever had a revolution the folks from below would murder millions. That is how it generally plays out. This is much worse than the French or Bolshevik revolution. At least in the latter they were all from the same tribe. If we have a revolution it will be a 100 times more bloody because of the tribal element.



You're not even bothering to size-up the balance of *class forces*, as they exist. Your analysis is *superficial* and *stereotyped*.


Julian658 wrote:
Agreed



If you *agree* with the WSWS analysis, perhaps you should *read* more from over there, and even include some excerpts in your comments, to bolster whatever it is that you're saying.

You need to *firm up* your political line, whatever it may be, because you're too prone to just *opinionate*, which is too facile and detached from reality.


Julian658 wrote:
Poor blacks reside in cities that have been under the control of the Democratic Party for at least 50 years.

BTW, I work with and know plenty of black people that are a million miles away from all this chaos and have moved to the middle class with no issues. Nevertheless, I do not know how they really think.



'Blacks' is a *demographic category*. *Racism* is an empirical social problem. Maybe address the *politics* more, and less of the cultural *demographics*.
#15096747
Julian658 wrote:Just ask Asians and Jews and see what they do to get ahead. As a Latin American I tell my kids to copy whatever Asian and Jewish students do.

This quote is important because earlier, you mention the need to "educate" other nations, and here you are showing that you want to learn from other nations as well.

But the lesson you don't want to learn is that the "strategies" that particular groups use to be successful, primarily involve crushing other groups of people's ability to succeed. This can be done in many ways, but mainly through mafia-like loyalty to "your own kind."

And as a Latin American, you can't help but agree with this as Spain got to build some beautiful cities by destroying several empires in Latin America. That was the secret of their success. And the USA continues to this day, with USA shareholders making virtually all the money off of South America's resources. And then sending its sons to do the labor that USA citizens find beneath them.

And here's why you can't educate your way into this club: Their lessons are only strategies for stealing from others. And you are not one of them, you're one of the others. (and so am I)
#15096756
QatzelOk wrote:This quote is important because earlier, you mention the need to "educate" other nations, and here you are showing that you want to learn from other nations as well.

But the lesson you don't want to learn is that the "strategies" that particular groups use to be successful, primarily involve crushing other groups of people's ability to succeed. This can be done in many ways, but mainly through mafia-like loyalty to "your own kind."


Why must the success of one person mean someone else was crushed? if I earn five dollars---does that mean a poor person lost five dollars?

And as a Latin American, you can't help but agree with this as Spain got to build some beautiful cities by destroying several empires in Latin America. That was the secret of their success.


Spain was already an advanced civilization before the colonization of Latin America. But, yes---they got richer with Latin American gold. That is the history of the world. Powerful nations invaded weaker nations.


And the USA continues to this day, with USA shareholders making virtually all the money off of South America's resources. And then sending its sons to do the labor that USA citizens find beneath them.


Yep. There is a hierarchy. Humans align themselves in a hierarchy of competence. The problem is that those on top sometimes become tyrannical. This has been quite obvious in world history after the discovery of agriculture. By the way the Incas also had an empire. They kidnapped children from other tribes and sacrificed them at the altar. Why are you unable to grapple with this?

And here's why you can't educate your way into this club: Their lessons are only strategies for stealing from others. And you are not one of them, you're one of the others. (and so am I)


I will ask again:

If I make money-------- does that mean someone else got poor?
#15096759
Julian658 wrote:
You can thank capitalists for that!



But more to the point, going-forward, is who gets to *benefit* from this?

Since we're all born in the same kinds of bodies, what is it that grants *tons* of food, from private ownership of *land* and equipment, to *some*, but not to others? We *all* need food, and more.

If all food-producing land was *collectivized* and administrated over in common, these automatic food-tending robots could simply be *run* over *entire continents*, to produce food and whatever else, for *everyone*. This would free people up even *further*, by being 'automatically-fed', to do higher-level societal things, whatever that may be for the individual.

On other words, why not raise *all* boats, at the same time, instead of just raising *some* boats, and not others -- ?
#15096766
ckaihatsu wrote:But more to the point, going-forward, is who gets to *benefit* from this?

Since we're all born in the same kinds of bodies, what is it that grants *tons* of food, from private ownership of *land* and equipment, to *some*, but not to others? We *all* need food, and more.

If all food-producing land was *collectivized* and administrated over in common, these automatic food-tending robots could simply be *run* over *entire continents*, to produce food and whatever else, for *everyone*. This would free people up even *further*, by being 'automatically-fed', to do higher-level societal things, whatever that may be for the individual.

On other words, why not raise *all* boats, at the same time, instead of just raising *some* boats, and not others -- ?

I do not disagree.
Nevertheless, i have heard that wealthy nations have been trying to help and aid less developed African nations for years with little results. Sometimes people need to learn how to take care of business by themselves.
#15096771
Julian658 wrote:
I do not disagree.
Nevertheless, i have heard that wealthy nations have been trying to help and aid less developed African nations for years with little results. Sometimes people need to learn how to take care of business by themselves.



This is *preposterous* -- how are technologically underdeveloped areas supposed to get *robotic* technology, or *any* technology?

You're arguing that everyone on earth should have to reinvent-the-wheel for themselves, instead of *learning* about how *others* have done it.

Are you for the commodification of *information*, Julian?

Your politics is unable to deal with the results of massively leveraged technologies -- that bring the capacity for *abundance* -- just like capitalism itself, and its inherent *destructiveness* for the sake of *enforced scarcity*.

You sound almost like a *Luddite*.
#15096817
ckaihatsu wrote:This is *preposterous* -- how are technologically underdeveloped areas supposed to get *robotic* technology, or *any* technology?

You're arguing that everyone on earth should have to reinvent-the-wheel for themselves, instead of *learning* about how *others* have done it.

Are you for the commodification of *information*, Julian?

Your politics is unable to deal with the results of massively leveraged technologies -- that bring the capacity for *abundance* -- just like capitalism itself, and its inherent *destructiveness* for the sake of *enforced scarcity*.

You sound almost like a *Luddite*.


That is not what I meant. New nations are a bit like the "new rich" they tend to squander resources and have a lot of corruption. I do not mean to sound racist but I have seen this too in Latin America (my people).
#15096840
Julian658 wrote:
Nevertheless, i have heard that wealthy nations have been trying to help and aid less developed African nations for years with little results. Sometimes people need to learn how to take care of business by themselves.



ckaihatsu wrote:
This is *preposterous* -- how are technologically underdeveloped areas supposed to get *robotic* technology, or *any* technology?

You're arguing that everyone on earth should have to reinvent-the-wheel for themselves, instead of *learning* about how *others* have done it.

Are you for the commodification of *information*, Julian?

Your politics is unable to deal with the results of massively leveraged technologies -- that bring the capacity for *abundance* -- just like capitalism itself, and its inherent *destructiveness* for the sake of *enforced scarcity*.

You sound almost like a *Luddite*.



Julian658 wrote:
That is not what I meant. New nations are a bit like the "new rich" they tend to squander resources and have a lot of corruption. I do not mean to sound racist but I have seen this too in Latin America (my people).



The underdeveloped-nations' 'corruption' could be better-termed as the 'comprador bourgeoisie', meaning the political officials who personally benefit from imperialism by selling out their *own* countries, politically and economically.



With the emergence (or re-emergence) of globalization, the term comprador has reentered the lexicon to denote trading groups and classes in the developing world in subordinate but mutually advantageous relationships with metropolitan capital. The Egyptian Marxist Samir Amin has discussed the role of compradors in the contemporary global economy in his recent work.[9] In addition, the Indian economist, Ashok Mitra, has accused the owners and managers of firms attached to the Indian software industry of being compradors.[10] Growing identification of the software industry in India with comprador 'qualities' has led to the labeling of certain persons associated with the industry as 'dot.compradors'.[11][12]

In Marxist terminology, Comprador Bourgeoisie, perceived as the serving the interests of foreign imperial powers, is counterposed to National Bourgeoisie which is considered as opposing foreign Imperialism and promoting the independence of its own country - and as such, could be under some circumstances a short-term ally of Socialist revolutionaries.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprador



I mean to say that 'corruption' is most-often *structural* -- that it's a matter of *power relations* between the developed, imperialist Western country, and the underdeveloped, capital-starved colonized-type country.

It's because of the lack of *investment capital* that underdeveloped countries often *stay* underdeveloped and backward compared to the West. It's a *dilemma*, as you're noting, because banks like the IMF will charge usurious interest rates to higher-risk nation-clients, making it difficult for them to compete in the markets *and* pay back the loan.

You sound like you're taking up the conventional 'management' perspective on this, as though a better manager, or a newly elected official, could find some special 'new path' out of these structural dynamics, that all predecessors just somehow 'missed'.
#15096846
ckaihatsu wrote:Just thought of the quintessential comprador:


Mobutu Sese Seko

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobutu_Sese_Seko

Exactly!
BTW, many African nations have rapidly growing economies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... rowth_rate

What do you think of the demonstrations?
I believe there is a lot of nihilism out there. I am quite sad about it
#15096848
Julian658 wrote:
Exactly!
BTW, many African nations have rapidly growing economies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... rowth_rate

What do you think of the demonstrations?
I believe there is a lot of nihilism out there. I am quite sad about it



Well, with *that* kind of logic it sounds like you'd readily support a 'Northern South Sudan', as a *new* new country -- !


Image


I'm far more sad about all the people who have been killed by cops -- yet the cops still walk the streets, armed.
#15096849
To clarify:


---


The source of police violence, however, is not racial antagonism, but class oppression. The unifying characteristic among victims of police violence—black, white, Hispanic or Native American—is that they are poor and among the most vulnerable segments of the population.

The role of Black Lives Matter and other proponents of racial politics, in claiming that racism is the cause of police violence, is to promote the idea that hiring more black police officers or electing more black politicians will resolve the problem. Inevitably, this means channeling opposition behind the Democratic Party, one of the twin parties of Wall Street and the military. And the epidemic of police violence continues unabated.

This reign of terror raged under the watch of Democratic President Barack Obama and continues under the fascistic Republican Donald Trump. Regardless of whether a state has a Democratic or Republican governor, if the mayor or police chief is black, white, male, female, straight or gay, police killings continue unabated.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/0 ... s-m28.html
#15096898
ckaihatsu wrote:Well, with *that* kind of logic it sounds like you'd readily support a 'Northern South Sudan', as a *new* new country -- !


Image


I know little about that area. But, I always had hopes for Africa. My neighbor is Nigerian and he is truly amazing, quite conservative, and not crazy about American blacks. Has two kids that are model children, well behaved, polite, the whole nine yards. However, this is an anecdote, ha, ha.

I'm far more sad about all the people who have been killed by cops
--
American cops are very poorly trained compared to other Western nations . They are trained to be violent very quickly. This is more than just racism.

yet the cops still walk the streets, armed.

Says the guy that would impose the dictatorship of the proletariat. Hey, one thing I liked about socialist nations is that crime is not tolerated. The mayors and governors of liberal cities are afraid to use the cops.

The nihilism of black youth in the inner city is very troublesome, they have nothing to live for. They are THE JOKER ! And then the media tells them on a daily basis they will never succeed because of racism: That is a recipe for low self esteem, anger, frustration hopelessness, and nihilism.
#15097053
Julian658 wrote:
I know little about that area. But, I always had hopes for Africa. My neighbor is Nigerian and he is truly amazing, quite conservative, and not crazy about American blacks. Has two kids that are model children, well behaved, polite, the whole nine yards. However, this is an anecdote, ha, ha.

--
American cops are very poorly trained compared to other Western nations . They are trained to be violent very quickly. This is more than just racism.



It's *exoneration*. If *anyone else* was this violent, this quickly, there would be severe penalties against it and those who broke that law would be incarcerated, to deter *others* from being that way.


---


ckaihatsu wrote:
yet the cops still walk the streets, armed.



Julian658 wrote:
Says the guy that would impose the dictatorship of the proletariat.



Yeah, *I'm* 'the guy', and my finger is suspended over '*the* button', as to whether there's going to be a dictatorship of the proletariat, or not.

Your rhetoric is amusing, if unintentionally so.


Julian658 wrote:
Hey, one thing I liked about socialist nations is that crime is not tolerated. The mayors and governors of liberal cities are afraid to use the cops.



Obviously not afraid *enough* -- killer cops *continue* to victimize people.

So the family of someone who's had a loved one killed by the police -- would you consider *them* to be victims, or is that still too 'ambiguous' within your conservative ideology?


Julian658 wrote:
The nihilism of black youth in the inner city is very troublesome, they have nothing to live for. They are THE JOKER ! And then the media tells them on a daily basis they will never succeed because of racism: That is a recipe for low self esteem, anger, frustration hopelessness, and nihilism.



So what do you propose to ameliorate this situation? You're in the right venue for some elaboration on this.
#15097069
Here's that two-party ruling class system that you acknowledged, Julian:


---


Democrats cover for Trump’s coup d’état

3 June 2020

Following Trump’s announcement that he would deploy the military to crush protests against police violence throughout the country, the Democrats are working to cover up and downplay Trump’s illegal and unconstitutional coup d’état.

Trump has operationalized his efforts to establish a presidential dictatorship, based on the military and the police, through a massive military deployment in Washington, D.C., which is under his direct control. He is also escalating pressure on states to crack down on demonstrations after his threat on Monday to send in the military if they do not respond aggressively enough.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/0 ... s-j03.html
#15097093
Julian658 wrote:If I make money-------- does that mean someone else got poor?

It depends on how you "made" that money.

A) If you worked for 50 hours at a drugstore for minimum wage, NO, you didn't make anyone poorer. You actually helped make the shareholders of that drugstore RICHER by surrendering a percent of your surplus labor. Perhaps most of it.

Surrendering your "surplus labor" means you don't have any excess resources to do things like educate your kids, spend time building social capital, taking care of your health, or improving your lot in life through education or other enriching activities.

B) If you skimmed money out of the system by collecting rent on inherited or stolen property, then yes, you made someone else poor.

B) If you stole that money in a foreign country during a military operation, then yes, you made someone else poor.

B) And if you tricked someone into giving you five dollars by selling them a false ecology narrative, then yes, you've made someone else poor.

...

The super-rich oligarchs who control you and me fall into the B) categories, whereas hopelessly naive slaves who "believe whatever they're told" fall into the A) category.
#15097106
QatzelOk wrote:It depends on how you "made" that money.

A) If you worked for 50 hours at a drugstore for minimum wage, NO, you didn't make anyone poorer. You actually helped make the shareholders of that drugstore RICHER by surrendering a percent of your surplus labor. Perhaps most of it.

Surrendering your "surplus labor" means you don't have any excess resources to do things like educate your kids, spend time building social capital, taking care of your health, or improving your lot in life through education or other enriching activities.

B) If you skimmed money out of the system by collecting rent on inherited or stolen property, then yes, you made someone else poor.

B) If you stole that money in a foreign country during a military operation, then yes, you made someone else poor.

B) And if you tricked someone into giving you five dollars by selling them a false ecology narrative, then yes, you've made someone else poor.

...

The super-rich oligarchs who control you and me fall into the B) categories, whereas hopelessly naive slaves who "believe whatever they're told" fall into the A) category.


How about this:

An engineer
A school teacher

Do these people steal money from the poor when they earn a salary?
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