African-American Asphyxiated by Police in Minneapolis - Page 65 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15097326
JohnRawls wrote:For those who are interested in a solution and general situation:



Yes, I also read his Medium article yesterday. He's on point about solutions for the issue that triggered this, and I also think some of that road has already been traveled through in many localities (maybe even most of them) but I think his diagnosis is incomplete - this isn't just about police brutality and oversight. But I don't think he or any other Democrats will speak about what's going on with their electoral base because it's a can of worms they don't want to put in the open, even if it's painfully clear that they are in trouble as far as this goes.
#15097331
colliric wrote:https://au.news.yahoo.com/george-floyd-new-york-police-car-rams-into-protesters-040841062.html

Yes I'm sure it was a joke.

I wish Black Lives Matter were joking, but I know they are not.
#DefundThePolice
May 30, 2020
We call for a national defunding of police.
https://blacklivesmatter.com/defundthepolice/

Black Lives Matter Co-Founder Calls for Defunding of Police Departments

Patrisse Cullors, co-founder of the Black Lives Matter movement, is not merely an activist — she's a modern-day abolitionist. And as protests over racism, inequality and police brutality have exploded worldwide, Cullors says the answer does not lie in holding police accountable with better training and body cameras. Instead, she demands defunding law enforcement so that black and brown people can be free from what she calls a "well-funded army" that "occupies" them.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/ ... ts-1296809

USA : "Police continue to kill us with impunity"
Jun 1, 2020

I wish she were joking, but I know she is lying.
#15097337
Pants-of-dog wrote:So looting bothers you, but a police state enacting lethal violence on people and shooting any press, medical people, and legal observers to keep them from holding the police accountable for the violence is fine.

I am now going to assume that things like democracy are not important to you.


You could have also taken away from the post that

Burning down a police station and police cars doesn't bother me (a pretty massive statement from a conservative!), but looting does.

Which boils down to a simple principle: the targets of property destruction or violence must be related to the issue at hand for them to be valid.
#15097340
noemon wrote:
@Verv Regarding playing devil's advocate, you choose your battles, I know lots of your great posts as well and no you have not changed in this sense, back then you would still play the same advocate for the same sides and it mattered less because the center was a lot further to the left than it is now, now the pole has moved so far to the right that you are dipping your toes in real fascism in real life. Standing your ground for injustice is never a right thing to do for whatever reason and especially when the bottom line -which is always the most important thing of all- is so clear. Your policing has a problem, your presidential office has a problem and there are a lot of other problems that are screaming in your face. We should have the conversation on what needs to be done to solve this problem, not why it is justified. That should be the content of the conversation in a normal & healthy social group. Not why the psychopathy is normal.


I see your point and am very glad that you acknowledge my own.

I have to be honest, I am somehow out of the loop. Obviously, I see that the contrast here is far more stark between left/right, and the nature of the conversations are more extreme... But I am still out of the loop because I do not feel it.

Maybe this is because of a failure of myself to express empathy and to rather just focus on points.

I think it is also because, while I do have empathy, I have felt social pressure and even instances of betrayal from people who I htink have mistreated me, some of my friends, and even my father for their views. My father lost a friend of over 50 years because of a political disagreement between my father and his friend's wife. He lost another friend of over 30 years for the same thing, and hearing these things upset me a lot more than experiencing my own smaller versions of social fallout.

Of course, everyone has experienced this, left and right. And this may be something that makes us more bombastic and less empathetic int he way that we engage.

I actually spent much of the evening thinking about what you, Drlee, Unthinking Majority, and other posters said, not just in this thread, but in other palces over the last months. I couldn't stop thinking about it -- while we just know each other from DUH INTERNET, it's always been more than that, and in the year 2020, I think people everywehre recognize that these relationships are significant...

So, I think the best way to deal with this is for me to emphasize the fullness of my views instead of focusing on the contention points, and to, of course, try to post more like I used to in general, with more off-topic romanticism.
#15097341
Funding model for the Police in the USA should be changed.

I've never actually understood why the State Police isn't the only police force level in America, with the FBI doing the federal policing as usual. Someone should explain to me why you need Police Departments in every single city. It looks way too burocratic to me.

I'm legit asking why in America there's a Police Department in every city. It seems way more efficient to have one Department cover the entire state(the Australian system). Australia has just 8 Police Departments covering our entire continent. 6 state police forces, 1 territory force, 1 federal-level police force(that also covers the ACT).

Wouldn't it be better if NYPD refered to every Police Department in New York State?

They could retain their regional names and structure, yet be held more accountable to the department headquartered in the state's capital.

I'm legit asking.

I'm sure the answer will be "population levels make it more difficult", but there's other reasons too right?
Last edited by colliric on 04 Jun 2020 03:00, edited 2 times in total.
#15097347
Verv wrote:You could have also taken away from the post that

Burning down a police station and police cars doesn't bother me (a pretty massive statement from a conservative!), but looting does.

Which boils down to a simple principle: the targets of property destruction or violence must be related to the issue at hand for them to be valid.


The people who love the protests and riots don't believe in private property anyways.
#15097349
maz wrote:The people who love the protests and riots don't believe in private property anyways.

Yeah, most of them think they would love socialism. The rioters and looters certainly don't love business owners. They only love what they can take from them.
#15097350
All those businesses have insurance. Anyone who cares more about vandalism than human life is a piece of shit.

I do like seeing all you cunts being upset about protesting now though, when a couple weeks ago you were stoked that armed crowds were storming state houses because they couldn't buy sprinklers. I'm sure you will be equally stoked when the police and military systematically murder anyone who is part of the completely nebulous organization "antifa".
#15097353
Red_Army wrote:All those businesses have insurance. Anyone who cares more about vandalism than human life is a piece of shit.

I do like seeing all you cunts being upset about protesting now though, when a couple weeks ago you were stoked that armed crowds were storming state houses because they couldn't buy sprinklers. I'm sure you will be equally stoked when the police and military systematically murder anyone who is part of the completely nebulous organization "antifa".

To be honest, at this point and after all the nonsense, I don't give a shit what happens in the George Floyd conspiracy. :lol:
#15097354
Donna wrote:lol, those body cams that cops repeatedly turn off and the only ones who get caught doing anything are the ones unaware of the 30 second delay.


Here's footage of a US cop covering his bodycam with his hand as he knowingly falsely accuses a civilian who is simply legally filming him of having a gun in his pocket (actually a radio) in order to make up an excuse to shoot him or arrest him.

#15097360
No one wants to answer my question?

I feel these cops think they are immune to being held to account (not just from the Court's, but their employer). No higher up centralised internal authority = Bent Cops who think their employer supports them beating people up.
#15097362
colliric wrote:No one wants to answer my question?

I feel these cops think they are immune to being held to account (not just from the Court's, but their employer). No higher up centralised internal authority = Bent Cops who think their employer supports them beating people up.


I'll leave the courts aside since that's something that's been discussed for quite a while ITT.

As far as their employer goes, I think the issue has to do with the fact that police unions are very strong (for obvious reasons) so majors try to avoid picking fights with the police.

As for centralizing the police at a higher level of government, I don't know if that would really solve things. The current system should in principle give more control to the communities at hand, and both States and the Federal government have tools to enforce laws determined at the higher levels of government (State/Federal). Furthermore, the US has quite a bit of cultural heterogeneity (urban and rural America are very different societies, northern and southern states are different to the extent of having different accents and values, etc).

I think solutions should be specific to the communities at hand, and as Barack Obama himself suggested concrete proposals should be presented by them to improve on policing (and other issues) so there's less room for these unions and the like to block them: If they do so, they will have to do it openly. That's why I don't think it's enough to just leave matters to the legal experts in this case, where they may be blocked by those interested parties that are negatively affected by reforms (like, again, police unions) and also where solutions need to be specific to each community.
#15097363
maz wrote:The people who love the protests and riots don't believe in private property anyways.


I can't speak for them because many seem more to be Welfarists not Socialists, but as a Socialist, I don't believe in private property (personal property is another matter) and I'm appalled at the rioting and wanton theft and destruction.

True Socialism is about working together for the common good, collective ownership of the means of production, not government handouts to merely consume goods and services and not produce anything at all.

Building Socialism is about collective social responsibility, not irresponsibility. It has civilization as it's basis and presupposes law and order, not this wanton destruction and reactionary barbarism from rouge criminal police and vicious and stupid rioters and vandals alike.
#15097366
annatar1914 wrote:I can't speak for them because many seem more to be Welfarists not Socialists, but as a Socialist, I don't believe in private property (personal property is another matter) and I'm appalled at the rioting and wanton theft and destruction.

True Socialism is about working together for the common good, collective ownership of the means of production, not government handouts to merely consume goods and services and not produce anything at all.

Building Socialism is about collective social responsibility, not irresponsibility. It has civilization as it's basis and presupposes law and order, not this wanton destruction and reactionary barbarism from rouge criminal police and vicious and stupid rioters and vandals alike.


Yes, workers should be peaceful and keep their heads down in a system based on constant class warfare being waged against them. Oh, but, you're a "socialist". :roll:
#15097367
colliric wrote:
I'm legit asking.

I'm sure the answer will be "population levels make it more difficult", but there's other reasons too right?


The reasons are mainly historical and have nothing to do with efficiency. The organization of the police is patterned after the sane local-level, state-level, federal-level model that the government itself is organized along.
#15097368
Saeko wrote:Yes, workers should be peaceful and keep their heads down in a system based on constant class warfare being waged against them. Oh, but, you're a "socialist". :roll:


Show me real workers who have time, means, and social irresponsibility to set fires, vandalize, terrorize innocents, and attack the forces of law and order. That's not building Socialism.

No, what you have are degenerates and reactionary lumpenproles mindlessly destroying any possibility in the near future at least for even having Socialism, and both Biden and Trump alike will be very pleased at that. Stupid, and Evil.
#15097369
No one wants to answer my question?


What Saeko said.

Our constitution denies the power of policing to the federal government. So at best we would have 50 state police forces.

The whole theory of US politics is to power down. All power is with the people and pushed up one locality at a time.

Clearly there is inefficiency. My town has a police force. My county has one as well. Then the state has many. Game and fish, mine police, railroad police, gambling police, etc. Then the feds have a shit ton of them. FBI, ICE, Marshall Service, Park police, treasury....on and on.

I think there is something in your suggestion that has merit. But as a conservative I believe that the closer to local control we get the closer to democracy we get. I know I can politically influence my local Chief of Police and Sheriff. There is not the remotest chance that the people can control the federal police.

We can control our police locally. You are seeing that happening right now. Two Chiefs of Police have been fired. At least a dozen police officers have been arrested and many more fired since the start of this protest. There is no doubt in my mind that a great many cops will think twice before they go back to the old ways. But the police riots we are seeing on television shows that we have a long way to go. Particularly in a nation that has a president who believes in shooting looters and who used federal troops to clear a park so he could disgustingly profane the Holy Bible in a publicity stunt.
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