Bernie Supporters not wanting to vote for Biden! - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15097346
Heisenberg wrote:Even now, with Trump openly going full fash, the Democrats are doing less than fuck all to oppose him. They can fuck off with their emotional blackmail.


Are you surprised that they lack a strong answer?

Its far left wing (+ people farther to the left of the party + some far-rightists who just want to cause mayhem that is in their interest) is the one that's rioting, and since it's happening in Democratic-led localities, its moderate wing is the one suffering the consequences. It doesn't matter what they say or don't say, beyond blaming Trump anything else they say will lose them one of their main voting blocs. They can't come out full blown supporting repressing the protests and restoring order, and they also cannot come out full blown supporting the protests and not condemning violence or opposing efforts to rein it in.

What else can the party do but have a weak response? At least if it wants to win come November, of course, if they started to think about winning in 2024 then maybe they could take a firmer position and just deal with losing votes. My guess is that in that event they would stand with their party members who are currently sitting in their posts as elected officials, with the wing of the party that won the primaries, and not with those who are on the losing end.
#15097361
Heisenberg wrote:Biden prides himself on his history of working with segregationists and has said "nothing will fundamentally change" if he is elected.

I can see the case for voting for Biden - although I don't think it's especially strong - but at what point does the Democratic Party simply become a lost cause from a left perspective? It's not beyond the realm of possibility that we'll see them nominate someone like Paul Ryan in the near future, to capture the coveted "#NeverRichardSpencer" Republican demographic.

Sir, I totally agree with you, the Dems are a lost cause.
However, letting Trump win does no good.
IMHO, if Trump wins then the only way for your people to take over the US is through violent actions. More much violent than the current situation with the "riots". {Which are not riots.}
I posted here and other places several months ago that what needs to happen now (that is then) is for a critical mass of Progressive voters to come out of their homes and meet in public "on the sidewalks near the streets" to show the Dems that there are 20M of them. At that time there was time to get the Dems attention. That did not happen. Maybe because the Progressives were still complacent or maybe because there are not that many who agree with me.

So, what should we do now?
I think that letting Trump win is likely the end of free and fair elections.

OTOH, we have a new NOW.
Now we do have a million progressives meeting in the streets all over the nation and demanding to be heard, to see action.
Apparently they are focused on police murdering innocent black men. I hope they wake up and see that their current focus is just the tip of the iceberg that is the real problem.
IMHO, that real problem is that for the last 40 years the forces of the rich have been waging a class war on the mass of the American people and they have won every or almost every battle for 40 years.
There is now so much that is wrong that it will take a while to make it right.

So IMHO, what we do now is the elect Biden and then get the Progressives who are now in the streets to join together on a larger agenda. My agenda, which I have told you all about for 2 years.**
. . Then work to begin to take over the Dem Party in mass or create a new 3rd party. We have very little time if the ACC experts were right when they gave us 12 years to get carbon emissions way down. The only hope as I see the situation is for those people in the streets to win now and stay committed for the next 12 years.

BTW -- a big reason that this police murder has resulted in these peaceful demonstrations now, is that so many are out of work and so have no reason to not join in. IMHO, these courageous demonstrators are risking their lives with the virus in the same way we demand that soldiers in battle risk their lives to achieve the good goal the nation has gone to war to achieve. Not to mention they're risking their bodies and even lives when the police beat them up.

In summary, Biden is far from an ideal candidate. But, it is too late to get a different one. Also, his VP choice is critical, because there is a 30 to 50% chance that Biden will have to step aside for health reasons or even dementia reasons. Now is not the time to repeat the response to Pres. Wilson's stroke.



. ** . . It includes structural changes and eventual goals. One goal is to use the fiat dollar to its fullest extent to provide a GND and to provide a CCC type job or other job to every unemployed American at a wage of about $15/hr plus many benefits. This JGP would set a new minimum wage for the private sector at a "socially inclusive level". A UBI is not good enough for 3 reasons. 1] It can not be large enough to be a socially inclusive income for the mass of the people. 2] It gives something for nothing. And 3] it is inflationary. I'm told that MMTers have shown over the last 26 years that a Job Guarantee program is a workable anchor to control inflation.
#15097392
skinster wrote:As I understand it, about 100 million Americans don't vote, cry harder.

This is what should worry Republicans, yet they remind silent shivering in fear, in cowardice in a dark corner pretending they are not aware of what's going on:



There is an unrest in America, young people are becoming more and more fired up. You see the protests and virtually everyone is in their 20's or 30's. There is a portion of the population that are notorious for not participating in the voting. This is a portion of the population that lean democratic to begin with.

They should be condemning the abuse of power by this government because it is the right thing to do, but since they don't have a spine, at least they should be condemning it because it will cost them votes.
#15097393
Tainari88 wrote:How is Trump going to be worse than Biden? Biden has to prove he is going to spank some banks hard.

He was the Senator from Delaware--the land of chancery courts and weak usury laws so nationally chartered banks can lend across state lines and preempt target state usury! Many major corporations are headquartered there. See Marquette vs. First of Omaha and Smiley v. Citibank as Biden was all about predatory credit card lending to poor people his whole career.

Saeko wrote:Because the bankers and oligarchs we had before Trump are infinitely better than Trump.

Destroying Libya and Syria and flooding Europe with more refugees than anyone has seen since WWII is infinitely better than Trump, who has fired a few missiles in four years?

Saeko wrote:Trump could lead us into a nuclear war at any moment. He is crazy.

He's a pussycat.

Saeko wrote:The Oligarchs are at least act out of rational self-interest.

That's debatable. They act out of self interest, but their greed is so absolute that they've lost the support of the electorate with extreme economic and social policies. People just don't trust them anymore.

Saeko wrote:That makes them predictable.

Perhaps, but they will predictably disappoint blue collar working class voters as they have for decades now. Why would anyone want to vote for the oligarchs knowing the oligarchs will predictably and certainly disappoint them?

Saeko wrote:With Trump we're utterly FUCKED!

So at least you understand why I support him. I want to fuck over the establishment. I've felt that way since 2006.

Heisenberg wrote:Even now, with Trump openly going full fash, the Democrats are doing less than fuck all to oppose him.

Rioters are looting 5th Avenue. Trump Tower is on 5th Avenue. There are 70k people per square mile in Manhattan. That's the nature of what needs to be done. The NYPD can do it, but de Blasio is preventing them. NYPD is the size of two army divisions.

Donna wrote:The fact that NYC is full of delusional liberals doesn't really change the fact that voting for Biden is voting a white supremacist out of the White House.

Trump actually has black friends. Biden says things like "poor kids are every bit as smart as white kids", "You cannot go into a 7-11 or a Dunkin Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent. I’m not joking," "They’re going to put y’all back in chains,", and his latest "you ain't black".

Heisenberg wrote:Biden prides himself on his history of working with segregationists and has said "nothing will fundamentally change" if he is elected.

I find it fantastically funny that people think Biden is somehow less racist than Trump. He's less abrasive than Trump, but just about anyone would be. Trump actually has quite a lot of black friends.

Steve_American wrote:I think that letting Trump win is likely the end of free and fair elections.

How? The Democrats did reasonably well in the House in 2018.

Steve_American wrote:IMHO, that real problem is that for the last 40 years the forces of the rich have been waging a class war on the mass of the American people and they have won every or almost every battle for 40 years.

Exactly. That's why Trump won. He was the only one to address the major factors in their loss of status: free trade with China and illegal immigration depressing wages. That's still the case.

Steve_American wrote: We have very little time if the ACC experts were right when they gave us 12 years to get carbon emissions way down.

They are way down. The economy is in the tank, because of the lockdowns.

Steve_American wrote:BTW -- a big reason that this police murder has resulted in these peaceful demonstrations now, is that so many are out of work and so have no reason to not join in.

Peaceful? They've been attacking the police, looting, setting fire to buildings, attacking business owners, etc. There are some peaceful protesters, but that's not the majority of it now.

Steve_American wrote:IMHO, these courageous demonstrators are risking their lives with the virus

They're risking other people's lives with the virus too. We'll find out soon enough if social distancing had any more merit than the stay-at-home orders.
#15097396
skinster wrote:They're not rightwingers so why would they do that?

How about so that civilization does not go in flames?
The world is in distress, regardless of who holds the oval office, the next decade will be very challenging. We are going to try to ride a wave of a pandemic, a massive global economic catastrophe all of this in a background of environmental abuse that threatens to bring further climate calamities, famine and unrest. All of this in a time where Russia, China, India, Pakistan, Iran, North Korea are fizzling up.
If we cannot have a great leader to guide us through this, at least lets try to settle for one that is not insane and doesn't spend his whole life gaslighting and making situations worse. There has not been a single thing that Trump has touched that you can honestly say he has made better, not a thing. Not a wife, not a friend, not his business, certainly not the lives of the people that have gone to jail for him or the careers of those that he has destroyed, not the republican party, the white house or the country. Everything that he touches withers away.
#15097397
Heisenberg wrote:Biden prides himself on his history of working with segregationists and has said "nothing will fundamentally change" if he is elected.

I can see the case for voting for Biden - although I don't think it's especially strong - but at what point does the Democratic Party simply become a lost cause from a left perspective? It's not beyond the realm of possibility that we'll see them nominate someone like Paul Ryan in the near future, to capture the coveted "#NeverRichardSpencer" Republican demographic.

Actually, there is a good case to be made that if Trump loses after just 1 term after all the controversy and scandals while still managing to hold a part of the Rep. party hostage that we might see a fracture and divide in that party as part of it tries to distance themselves from a Trump core, which I bet will always exist as he continues to open his big mouth on twitter and/or fox long after he is voted out of office. The democratic party is not as closely kept or unified as the republican anyways so with a weaken republican we could see parts of the democratic party splitting up as well. There is a non-zero chance that we could go into a multi-party system.
#15097398
blackjack21 wrote:Destroying Libya and Syria and flooding Europe with more refugees than anyone has seen since WWII is infinitely better than Trump, who has fired a few missiles in four years?


That is correct.

He's a pussycat.


Remove the "cat" and we agree.

That's debatable. They act out of self interest, but their greed is so absolute that they've lost the support of the electorate with extreme economic and social policies. People just don't trust them anymore.


Their greed is nothing compared to Trump's attacks on the American people.

Perhaps, but they will predictably disappoint blue collar working class voters as they have for decades now. Why would anyone want to vote for the oligarchs knowing the oligarchs will predictably and certainly disappoint them?


Because Trump has disappointed them more. Because Trump destroyed the economy. Because Trump failed to stop the virus. Because Trump is beating them up on the streets and in their homes. Because Trump is a draft-dodging cowardly Bunker-Bitch ordering the American military to spill American blood on American soil.

So at least you understand why I support him. I want to fuck over the establishment. I've felt that way since 2006.


I like his fucking over the establishment too, but I totally overestimated their ability to contain him.

EDIT: I'm so angry I can't even spell anymore.
#15097400
Saeko wrote:Remove the "cat" and we agree.

So there's really no danger at all.

Saeko wrote:Their greed is nothing compared to Trump's attacks on the American people.

What attacks? I'm an American and I haven't been attacked.

Saeko wrote:Because Trump has disappointed them more. Because Trump destroyed the economy. Because Trump failed to stop the virus.

Trump didn't destroy the economy. Blue state governors did for the most part. red states are already re-opening, and for that matter blue states aren't enforcing any laws it seems at this point. Nobody is worried about the virus anymore. Have you noticed? It's a secondary news story now.

Saeko wrote:Because Trump is beating them up on the streets and in their homes.

Trump isn't in control of local police forces, and he isn't in anybody's homes.

Saeko wrote:Because Trump is a draft-dodging cowardly Bunker-Bitch ordering the American military to spill American blood on American soil.

:roll: Riots are usually put down with non-lethals like tear gas, pepper spray, strobes, acoustics, etc.
#15097412
Donna wrote:Certainly not when it's instrumental in a popular front against a fascist.

The Democratic Party has been "instrumental" in enabling almost all of Trump's worst abuses, from the border camps to supporting fascist coups in Latin America. Just weeks ago they gave him an enormous military budget and voted to further expand the Patriot Act.

Fuck, they're even in power in a lot of the states where the police are currently firing rubber bullets into people's eyes! In what sense are these useless people "instrumental" in opposing Trump beyond Pelosi's performative photo ops?

As far as I can see, Trump is good business for the Dems. If they were serious about opposing him there are hundreds of things they could be doing right now but aren't. Nominating a senile Joe Biden to undo the "most dangerous president we've ever had" is just further proof they aren't serious.
#15097416
Donna wrote:There's definitely some white privilege operative in the Bernie-or-Bust crowd.

:lol: Love it, love it, seriously Donna, you should be charging for this stuff. The best strand-ups in the world couldn't compete with this for comedy -gold.

Yes who the hell do these people think they are, thinking they entitled to have some kind of choice in who they vote for. We all remember how "Black Lives Matter" goons were sent to break up "White Supremacist" Bernie Sanders meetings in 2016. Yes we all remember how we were obliged to vote for Missie Hillary in 2016, not just in the General but in the primary. The Black Lives Matter goons of course were unleashed on Klobuchar when she failed to fall in line straight away and support Massa Joe.

But of course now it turns out that Blackness is not something you are born with, not something you earn through growing up Black in a majority White country but a privilege, bestowed on you by Massa Joe. Nothing, I repeat nothing that Donald Trump has ever said or done, shows the same, utter contempt for Black people that Joe Biden did with his “ain't black” comments. Many of us thought that Hilary was difficult to beat, as a privileged White person with an oversized sense of entitlement, but Joe Biden takes the biscuit. You, I and any person with half a brain knows full well what the sub text of Biden's comment was:

"If you ain't my N*****, you aint no N***** at all"
#15097427
@blackjack21 wrote:

He was the Senator from Delaware--the land of chancery courts and weak usury laws so nationally chartered banks can lend across state lines and preempt target state usury! Many major corporations are headquartered there. See Marquette vs. First of Omaha and Smiley v. Citibank as Biden was all about predatory credit card lending to poor people his whole career.


I know about that BJ. I know about Biden's Delaware exploitation dealer background with predatory lenders. I read up on financial predatory lending all the time. I had to work with very low income people using predatory lending scams and his name came up with precisely that all the time.

BTW, @Saeko is right about how you come across BJ, you come across as a man very far up Trump's ass.

Mad Dog Mattis whom he had as his Secretary of Defense called Trump out hard in a statement and I think the most damaging of his statement was saying that the prez had no mature leadership. and he was dividing the nation and compared him to what the Nazis were doing propaganda wise to the Americans on D day.

You are not more of a nationalist than Mattis is BJ.

It is time to start abandoning Trump defending.

The Republic that you love? If you don't do something about the bad karma with the racism, the authoritarian measures, the expansion of Patriot Act and anti civil rights backing in this country at this point in history? The USA after the crisis is over is going to be losing power.

Trying to control the economy from afar without a happy working class and middle class in the USA? Is going to be the end of USA soft power in the world. If they use constant wars o prop it up? You shall see the inevitable socialists in power in a big way. And it will be a clean sweep.

That is what happened to Mexico BJ. The two party rot did not help anyone for too long. The regular labor escape valves Mexico was used to siphon off its lower unemployed was drying up...and the pressure built. And the third party socialists that no one wanted to deal with finally broke through.

IF? the Democratic party doesn't start implementing a decent Roosevelt reform agenda that has been destroyed over time by the many Right wing selfish shitty political machine? The socialism is just inevitable. If they don't do it? The ones without jobs, government checks and etc are gonna eventually destroy their own society. You got to remember what Martin Luther King said long ago....Urban riots are about not being heard. I should know, Puerto Ricans are some of the best street protestors in the world. Because we are never heard. No one lets us vote, no one in DC lets us do a damn thing. They reign bombs on us, they give us shit or nothing for benefits and they rule our country as a one way street. All benefiting the colonizer. So the unheard hit the street and they riot. Consistently. The weather helps too by the way. As riots tend to happen in the summer and fall when the weather is good.

No, BJ, if there is a third party and has very good leadership that breaks through? It will be like what happens in other nations with fed up working class, younger voters, progressives, moderate left like the Tazlan woman I posted video at the OP. And many more. And that is because you were so far up the ass of Trump that you did not see in your peripheral vision the threat from the Left. the uncompromising Left, and the ethical Left.

Because those are the ones who are the most effective at righting the wrongs of the Capitalist Greed gone bad.

When has some Democratic Socialist made it from a district in New York City that was under 30 years old in age before in the history of the US congress? Never. She represents the younger ones.

You need to start realizing the future is not about the old fucking Bidens. It is about all those kids in the street being shot by rubber bullets and told that property and respecting property is more important than respecting human life and giving them a future to believe in.

As a socialist? Not an authoritarian one but one who wants a great society without oppressing the ones working hard for it? They are in the right. To say, "I am here. I am not happy with the state of affairs. We need change. Listen to us. We need change."

These are not some people who study political science all day in Ivory Towers or paid political commentators like that asshole Tucker Carlson BJ. These are regular folks. Even people who are just singers, rappers, comedians. Lol.

If you don't see how negative that fucking president 45 is for the world? Not much can be done about your vision or non vision of America. What fills the void BJ? What fills the void? It won't be your side...because the ones in the peripheral Left are gonna be coming on like a ton of bricks. And all your fucked excuses for backing the backlash prez will be down the tubes.

Here:



None of them are socialists BJ. But they are going to go for the socialists. Because Biden's bullshit about Black people and you ain't black unless you vote for his sellout piece of lying shit self! They are pissed at the white people by appealing to the criminal justice system and the ineffective abilities of the Democratic and Republican Party of dealing with this racism problem. FIX THE SYSTEM BJ! EVERYBODY. The system is not about what you believe is the solution? They are there to serve and be exploited because they are incapable of better? NO!!! Stop thinking about this shit. It is the wrong way to deal. IT IS NOT ACCIDENT.

#15097443
Donna wrote:The fact that NYC is full of delusional liberals doesn't really change the fact that voting for Biden is voting a white supremacist out of the White House.


If the Dem Party were concerned about voting a white supremacist out of office, they could've picked somebody who might have a good chance of beating him (Sanders). But they picked more of the same because they don't care to change anything. As @Heisenberg points out, the Dems have done fuck-all while Trump has been in power, besides performance acts, while voting for a lot of what the Republicans want. The Dems and Republicans are two wings of the same bird, or as is said in England: two cheeks of the same arse. Expecting people to vote for them just because one side isn't overtly white supremacist is weird to hear coming from a communist. I should tell my friends in various U.S. cities who are out in the streets to vote for the guy that prefers to shoot them in the leg and not their heads or hearts. I'm sure they'll understand...
#15097446
Steve_American wrote:Sir, I totally agree with you, the Dems are a lost cause.

How are they a lost cause while shifting to the left and paving the way for social democracy? Political reality is that Obama is the one that can form a viable and potent coalition against rising Fascism in the US. Even Sanders appears to accept that, and what's outside the Obama-Sanders galaxy? The big fucking nothing!
#15097453
skinster wrote:If the Dem Party were concerned about voting a white supremacist out of office, they could've picked somebody who might have a good chance of beating him (Sanders). But they picked more of the same because they don't care to change anything. As @Heisenberg points out, the Dems have done fuck-all while Trump has been in power, besides performance acts, while voting for a lot of what the Republicans want. The Dems and Republicans are two wings of the same bird, or as is said in England: two cheeks of the same arse. Expecting people to vote for them just because one side isn't overtly white supremacist is weird to hear coming from a communist. I should tell my friends in various U.S. cities who are out in the streets to vote for the guy that prefers to shoot them in the leg and not their heads or hearts. I'm sure they'll understand...


The GOP and the Democratic Party are definitely not two wings of the same bird. One party has been taken over by a fascist and a white supremacist, the other hasn't.
#15097455
Heisenberg wrote:The Democratic Party has been "instrumental" in enabling almost all of Trump's worst abuses, from the border camps to supporting fascist coups in Latin America.

Just weeks ago they gave him an enormous military budget and voted to further expand the Patriot Act.

Fuck, they're even in power in a lot of the states where the police are currently firing rubber bullets into people's eyes! In what sense are these useless people "instrumental" in opposing Trump beyond Pelosi's performative photo ops?

As far as I can see, Trump is good business for the Dems. If they were serious about opposing him there are hundreds of things they could be doing right now but aren't. Nominating a senile Joe Biden to undo the "most dangerous president we've ever had" is just further proof they aren't serious.


Just because the DNC elite have no interest in defeating Trump doesn't mean that the people don't.
#15097512
Heisenberg wrote:You're a fan of Gorgeous George Galloway, I assume? :D


He's my friend, actually. :D

Donna wrote:The GOP and the Democratic Party are definitely not two wings of the same bird. One party has been taken over by a fascist and a white supremacist, the other hasn't.


Taken over? Dude. All the white supremacists that are cocky right now were always in Amerikkka.
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