What all the developed countries have in common - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15105133
wat0n wrote:
[J]ust because you believe colonialism is the only reason why developed countries are developed it doesn't mean your premise on its persistence is true.



I just came across the following segment recently, and I posted it to the 'Two Forms of Socialism' thread. It's relevant here.



The initial resources for capitalist development in England, its birthplace, came not from entrepreneurial individuals saving their money and then applying it to production, but from looting and plunder internationally, inherited fortunes, and the stripping of the mass of the population of access to the means of production and their transformation into a propertyless class with nothing to sell but their labour power.

And the course of capitalist development soon swept aside the independent entrepreneur. This took place through two processes: first, the inexorable logic of competition, which is not to perpetuate competitive struggle, but rather to compel each producer to drive out his rivals, with the aim of becoming a monopoly; and second, the expanded scale of production, which meant it could no longer be organised by individual entrepreneurs, but required the mobilisation of capital by corporations resting on a vast credit structure.



https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/0 ... f-j30.html
#15105183
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

So Ireland was as developed as other developed countries. That seems to contradict your claim.


Neither was developed in the 1980s. They were considered to be similar to so-called emerging economies.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Turkey was a colonial power? What were its colonies? :knife:


How about much of the Middle East and parts of Europe? :roll:
#15105369
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

Let us back up.

Provide evidence that Ireland was not developed until the 1990s. You have not done so.


No one as far as I'm aware would say Spain or Singapore were developed in 1989. Going a little bit farther back in time, too, in 1980 Ireland's per capita GDP (PPP) was actually lower than Argentina's.

If you don't like raw per capita GDP comparisons, then you can consider historical Human Development Index series. Ireland got to an index of 0.8 (the usual cutoff for a "high development" level) in 1996.
#15105381
ckaihatsu wrote:
2. What you call 'grievance history' the rest of the world calls 'history' -- it's not like there are two timelines of events that happened in parallel. There's *one* objective timeline of events, and people can *interpret* that as they will.



An elaboration:

People's *interpretations* of political events can be called 'politics', and the following left-right political-spectrum conceptual 'contraption' may be wheeled onto any 'level' of the vertical, macro-micro 'history' framework -- as on the 'event' level seen in the third graphic here:


Ideologies & Operations -- Fundamentals

Spoiler: show
Image



[1] History, Macro Micro -- Precision

Spoiler: show
Image



History, Macro-Micro -- Political (Cognitive) Dissonance

Spoiler: show
Image
#15105392
@wat0n

I found my own evidence. From 1910 (when the distinction between developed and developing becomes clear enough to read on the graph), the GDP per capita of Ireland was far better than Jamaica, India, Pakistan, and the indigenous people of the Americas and Australia and NZ.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/madd ... ZL~IRL~IND
#15105395
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

I found my own evidence. From 1910 (when the distinction between developed and developing becomes clear enough to read on the graph), the GDP per capita of Ireland was far better than Jamaica, India, Pakistan, and the indigenous people of the Americas and Australia and NZ.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/madd ... ZL~IRL~IND


How does that disprove the fact Ireland was not developed in 1990? It's easy to see it was still poorer than the US or the UK from your own source.
#15105398
@wat0n

Since Ireland had an economy much stronger than developing nations as early as the 1950s, we can see that it was not a developing country.

In fact, its economic growth is exactly what one would expect from a country that both loses wealth from colonialism and gains wealth from colonialism, supporting the claim that Ireland was coloniser and colonised.
#15105401
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

Since Ireland had an economy much stronger than developing nations as early as the 1950s, we can see that it was not a developing country.


You have never heard of middle income and emerging economies, haven't you?

Pants-of-dog wrote:In fact, its economic growth is exactly what one would expect from a country that both loses wealth from colonialism and gains wealth from colonialism, supporting the claim that Ireland was coloniser and colonised.


How was Ireland a colonizer from 1990 onwards?
#15105403
@wat0n

I understhad that the divisions between different levels of development are arbitrary and relative. And before we get i to a multi-page discussion about definitions, note that the claim is whether or not Irelan benefits from, and benefited from, colonialism. The answer is yes.

Ireland, like every other currently developed nation, now enjoys the wealth transfer of the ongoing colonialism.
#15105406
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

Wealth is transferred from the colonised nation to the coloniser nation and its economic allies. It started about 1492. It explains how Ireland was able to get wealth from these other countries, like India.


How has Ireland been extracting wealth from India since the 1990s?
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