African-American Asphyxiated by Police in Minneapolis - Page 152 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15105361
@wat0n

I am no longer going to bother discussing Rampart, since you were using to support your claim about DAs being voted out, and it simply does not apply.

If you want to think I am “having a tantrum”, you are more than free to believe whatever insulting things about me that you wish.

And since the studies only use self-reporting, which is inherently subjective, there is no objective measure of a reduction in brutality. And examples like the killing of Elijah McCain show that police can have bodycams and still go around killing people.

And since the system did not “revise its own decisions” until widespread protests occurred, you are arguing that the system requires such protests to work. Do you think it is normal and good that black people need to do that while white people do not?
#15105366
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

I am no longer going to bother discussing Rampart, since you were using to support your claim about DAs being voted out, and it simply does not apply.


It's funny how racial motivation is denied when it suits you, isn't it? But you haven't explained how an incident where a Black cop who was part of the unit got killed (and helped expose the whole situation) is not about Rampart, and why did the DOJ consider issues about discrimination in the consent decree.

Pants-of-dog wrote:And since the studies only use self-reporting, which is inherently subjective, there is no objective measure of a reduction in brutality.


Complaints are not self reported, and you still haven't explained why would there be more under-reporting when carrying bodycams than when cops don't. If anything it makes more sense for the opposite to be true since cops who don't carry bodycams can't have their reports compared with the footage, so under-reporting can go unnoticed. It's actually yet another great reason to extend their use. Thanks.

Pants-of-dog wrote: And examples like the killing of Elijah McCain show that police can have bodycams and still go around killing people.


Yes, just like criminalizing murder can still not end murders. Nirvana Fallacy as usual.

Pants-of-dog wrote:And since the system did not “revise its own decisions” until widespread protests occurred, you are arguing that the system requires such protests to work. Do you think it is normal and good that black people need to do that while white people do not?


Nobody should need to protest, but Whites also protest prosecutorial decisions from time to time. I thought you regarded community participation to be a good thing?
#15105368
@wat0n

1. I did expalin how Rampart had very little to do with racism. Would you like me to repeat it?

2. All use of force by police was self reported, therefore subjective. Outside complaints may be objectively verifiable, but since we comparing this number to a subjective one, the observed relationship is not objective or verifiable.

3. If no one should need to protest, but black people need to do so in order to hold cops accountable, then either the system is set up so that blacks would need to do this, or the system failed in some way. You have not shown how the system failed. Quite the opposite, you argue that it works perfectly. So do I, but with the caveat that the system is meant to allow cops to kill innocent black people with impunity, while you think of this as a puzzling aberration.
#15105373
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

1. I did expalin how Rampart had very little to do with racism. Would you like me to repeat it?


Knock yourself out. So far I haven't bought it.

And actually, if you analyze it further, I'm willing to bet that minorities were way overrepresented among those who were framed as being gang members too. After all, it fits the fact that gang members seem to overwhelmingly be non-white, which is also consistent with the idea that they engage in these activities due to a relatively greater scarcity of opportunities compared to Whites. It would be odd if the "gang members" they caught were mostly White, don't you think?

Pants-of-dog wrote:2. All use of force by police was self reported, therefore subjective. Outside complaints may be objectively verifiable, but since we comparing this number to a subjective one, the observed relationship is not objective or verifiable.


So what you are arguing is that we can't observe actual use of force. But this doesn't mean it's impossible to study the matter: If your outcome is observed with just random error, then the only problem you'll get is that the estimates are noisier. But they should not be biased.

Pants-of-dog wrote:3. If no one should need to protest, but black people need to do so in order to hold cops accountable, then either the system is set up so that blacks would need to do this, or the system failed in some way. You have not shown how the system failed. Quite the opposite, you argue that it works perfectly. So do I, but with the caveat that the system is meant to allow cops to kill innocent black people with impunity, while you think of this as a puzzling aberration.


No legal system is perfect, and no one should expect them to be - including the American one. But the fact that the system is imperfect doesn't make it set up to be racist :roll:

That's why I'm asking you what your proposal in this matter is. The American system is indeed flawed, but what's your alternative? Making DAs an appointed position rather than an elected one? That could indeed fix some problems, but I can imagine creating others (such as creating a legitimacy crisis if they are incompetent or corrupt, plus nonfeasance can clearly be a problem here as well). Forcing DAs to pursue cases even if lacking evidence? I can imagine this being used as a political and social weapon against undesirables, particularly if they lack the means to respond, and also being expensive in general.

One proposal I found, which is perhaps a not so invasive one that probably has little downsides, is to allow private citizens who are annoyed by a DA's decision not to prosecute to file and get a court declaration saying the DA is committing nonfeasance. This would not in itself have any direct consequences against him or her, but it would damage reelection prospects if the public agrees with the Court's reasoning.
#15105387
@wat0n

The DA did not lose their election campaign because of racism. It is easy to find ways that police work is related to racism, so yes, you can find all sorts of ties with racism, but that is due to the racist nature of police work, and has nothing to do with the claim that the DA lost the election because of this racism.

If you want to treat subjective self reporting as a metric, please do so. There is no objective measure showing that body cams significantly reduce brutality, nor do they address the causes.

We already looked at the history of policing in the USA and you already agreed that there was inherent systemic racism in the history of policing. So you already agreed that it was set up to be racist.

Please note that I do not need to have a proposal for something else to be correct about my claim that the system worked as it should when cops killed Elijah McCain and are now walking around free with guns.
#15105394
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

The DA did not lose their election campaign because of racism. It is easy to find ways that police work is related to racism, so yes, you can find all sorts of ties with racism, but that is due to the racist nature of police work, and has nothing to do with the claim that the DA lost the election because of this racism.


:roll:

This is grasping at straws now: The scandal almost surely affected minorities more than Whites, using the reasoning behind treating police killings as racism can only allow you to conclude Rampart was just another instance of that. And as such, if people voted the DA out as a result, it was over racism among other reasons.

Pants-of-dog wrote:If you want to treat subjective self reporting as a metric, please do so. There is no objective measure showing that body cams significantly reduce brutality, nor do they address the causes.


Still ignoring complaints, I see. And also ignoring my argument in my post above, but it makes sense because you have no answer to offer.

Pants-of-dog wrote:We already looked at the history of policing in the USA and you already agreed that there was inherent systemic racism in the history of policing. So you already agreed that it was set up to be racist.


I don't recall ever agreeing to that. Stop the strawmen, even if doing so makes your arguments seem stronger.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Please note that I do not need to have a proposal for something else to be correct about my claim that the system worked as it should when cops killed Elijah McCain and are now walking around free with guns.


No reason to listen to you if you offer no solutions (because if you did so and proposed something, it would further highlight the Nirvana Fallacy you are falling on). And this still doesn't address any of my arguments.
#15105397
@wat0n

You never clarified what your arguments about complaints is.

And if you do not recall agreeing that policing was initially set up to promote racist laws, that is irrelevant. It is still a historical fact.

And I would love it if you provided an argument that explains how ElijahMcCain’s killing was simultaneously unjustified but completely legal.
#15105400
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

You never clarified what your arguments about complaints is.


They are a proxy for coercion and general perceptions of the quality of service by the police, one that is not filed by cops.

Pants-of-dog wrote:And if you do not recall agreeing that policing was initially set up to promote racist laws, that is irrelevant. It is still a historical fact.


In your fantasy world, you mean.

Pants-of-dog wrote:And I would love it if you provided an argument that explains how ElijahMcCain’s killing was simultaneously unjustified but completely legal.


I already gave you an answer: The legality of the killing is still unknown since the AG is investigating.
#15105408
@wat0n

1. And?

2. Anyone can look at the hostory and see for themselves, Again, your belief otherwise is irrelevant.

3. So you agree that the killing was unjustified, and that the cops justified it, and the DA justified it, and the AG has not decided yet, so it perfectly all right?
#15105411
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

1. And?


And they suggest that the police reports are not all that noisy as a measure.

Pants-of-dog wrote:2. Anyone can look at the hostory and see for themselves, Again, your belief otherwise is irrelevant.


Indeed, they can see that Northern PDs were formed under different circumstances and following different models from those in the South, which makes sense since slavery had been illegalized in the North and not in the South.

Pants-of-dog wrote:3. So you agree that the killing was unjustified, and that the cops justified it, and the DA justified it, and the AG has not decided yet, so it perfectly all right?


It only means we have yet to wait until the facts have been established. I don't take press reports as being necessarily true or complete, since they don't have the authority or means a prosecutor has to investigate.
#15105416
@wat0n

1. Do they? Also, and?

2. We already saw that slavery was legal in the northern US when policing started.

3. Yes, the media is lying, that must be it. There is some undiscovered fact that will show that Elijah McCain was actually a violent criminal, and violent criminals deserve to be killed even when they are simply getting an iced tea from the local store. Or s9mething.
#15105417
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

1. Do they? Also, and?


Yes, and it is thus evidence suggesting the use of bodycams may help to reduce use of force, coercion and actually improve service in general.

Pants-of-dog wrote:2. We already saw that slavery was legal in the northern US when policing started.


Not really.

Pants-of-dog wrote:3. Yes, the media is lying, that must be it. There is some undiscovered fact that will show that Elijah McCain was actually a violent criminal, and violent criminals deserve to be killed even when they are simply getting an iced tea from the local store. Or s9mething.


The media may not have all the facts on what happened in the arrest. But hey, why bother doing trials since you are so willing to trust the media? Let's allow TV to make our criminal justice decisions for us!
#15105426
@wat0n

1. How much does it reduce police brutality? I am not going to ask about racism because there is no way body cams could deal with that.

2. Yes, and you ignored the links I provided showing that slavery was legal when policing started in the northern USA.

3. Why would the media not have all the facts? Is Elijah McCain hiding things from the media? If not, then it must be the police, and the prosecution who are doing so. But since that is part fo the system, that is all right?
#15105433
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

1. How much does it reduce police brutality? I am not going to ask about racism because there is no way body cams could deal with that.


The decrease in reported brutality is a decent estimate, ignoring that it may be downward biased (i.e. the estimated decrease in police brutality was by half).

Pants-of-dog wrote:2. Yes, and you ignored the links I provided showing that slavery was legal when policing started in the northern USA.


Except that it wasn't. The few slaves who remained were in that status due to some states whose abolition was gradual, and in many cases those slaves were minors and very old people. Even worse, there was little prospect of such slavery provisions being enforced, and by 1850 there were no slaves in the Northern States. Your claim implies the NYPD was founded to enforce slavery on the remaining 4 slaves in NY in 1840, does this make any sense to you? Let's not even bother with Massachusetts, there were no slaves when the Boston Police Department was established in the 1850s, an idea I don't feel to repeat once again.

Pants-of-dog wrote:3. Why would the media not have all the facts? Is Elijah McCain hiding things from the media? If not, then it must be the police, and the prosecution who are doing so. But since that is part fo the system, that is all right?


Why would the media have all the facts? Do you want me to look for examples where people were exonerated after a trial? Why don't you just wait until the AG does his job? Or now the AG is not part of the system?
#15105455
@wat0n

1. Not quite. There is no decrease in brutality since all violence was self reported and we can rationally assume that police will not self report when they illegally use force. Instead, we see that cops report half as much use of force when asked to wear body cams.

2. I am not going to bother correcting you again. People can look at the sources I already provided.

3. I am not saying the media have all the facts. I am saying they have all the facts that the cops allowed them to have. If you want to claim that the media is not portraying all the facts, then that is because the police and prosecutors are not providing all the facts.

I am going to assume that you cannot reconcile your belief (that Elijah McCain’s killing was unjustified) with your argument that the system has a reasonable system of accountability. If the system had such accountability, Elijah McCain’s killers would be in jail.

Yes, the AG is still working on it. You have repeatedly ignored the fact that the only reason they are doing so is because of widespread protests, which makes this exceptional, and not the regular system. Note that the involvement of the AG and the widespread protests are indications that the system (when it works as it is supposed to, like now) does not provide accountability for black people.
#15105467
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

1. Not quite. There is no decrease in brutality since all violence was self reported and we can rationally assume that police will not self report when they illegally use force. Instead, we see that cops report half as much use of force when asked to wear body cams.


Why would cops wearing bodycams underreport more than those who don't?

Pants-of-dog wrote:2. I am not going to bother correcting you again. People can look at the sources I already provided.


You mean you don't want to ridicule yourself more? :)

Pants-of-dog wrote:3. I am not saying the media have all the facts. I am saying they have all the facts that the cops allowed them to have. If you want to claim that the media is not portraying all the facts, then that is because the police and prosecutors are not providing all the facts.


Why would the cops feed them facts that contradict their own story?

Pants-of-dog wrote:I am going to assume that you cannot reconcile your belief (that Elijah McCain’s killing was unjustified) with your argument that the system has a reasonable system of accountability. If the system had such accountability, Elijah McCain’s killers would be in jail.

Yes, the AG is still working on it. You have repeatedly ignored the fact that the only reason they are doing so is because of widespread protests, which makes this exceptional, and not the regular system. Note that the involvement of the AG and the widespread protests are indications that the system (when it works as it is supposed to, like now) does not provide accountability for black people.


I already answered this: As elected officials, DAs have to deal with criticism of their activities, and higher level prosecutors can take part in the process if they wish. That "exceptionality" is also part of the American legal system in case you didn't notice.
#15105527
@wat0n

1. Who knows?
2. The last slaves in New Jersey were in 1865. In New York, it was 1827.
3. As long as we agree that the media is not at fault for not having all the facts. It is the police who are withholding information, if anyone is. And you are now simply repeating the justifications for why the cops are going free while ignoring the fact that you yourself think they are murderers.
#15105535
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

1. Who knows?


The same could be said about any estimate. What I find hard to believe is that people whose actions are being recorded and automatically sent in real time to a secure server would underreport more than those whose behavior is only being monitored by the reports they file. I think assuming under-reporting is the same for both is actually a conservative assumption if anything.

The whole point of bodycams is exactly that: Cops know they are being monitored and hence a third party can verify they are doing their job properly. It's the same principle as for any other job.

Pants-of-Dog wrote:2. The last slaves in New Jersey were in 1865. In New York, it was 1827.


In NY it would actually be in the 1840s. But we are digressing here - by the time the NYPD and the BPD were founded both cities were free of slaves already.

Pants-of-Dog wrote:3. As long as we agree that the media is not at fault for not having all the facts. It is the police who are withholding information, if anyone is. And you are now simply repeating the justifications for why the cops are going free while ignoring the fact that you yourself think they are murderers.


I don't blame the media for ignoring all the facts. I am, like you are, basing my assessment on the available information so far - and it's clear the cops are not the only source of information. Yet I'm aware that it's entirely possible that there is more information we are unaware of so far.
#15105538
@wat0n

1. Yes, cams provide monitoring, but again, monitoring is not a solution. It just tells us how bad the problem is. Because when cops self-report, we have no objective measure of how they use force.

2. Two cities are not the whole north, and policing started before police departments. For example, when did New Jersey get rid of its last slave?

3. What magical information do you think will come to light that will make sense of the killing? What can we learn that will justify the killing and allow us to understand why the cops and the DA decided that these cops do not even need to be charged?
#15105553
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

1. Yes, cams provide monitoring, but again, monitoring is not a solution. It just tells us how bad the problem is. Because when cops self-report, we have no objective measure of how they use force.


So deterrence isn't a thing to you?

Pants-of-dog wrote:2. Two cities are not the whole north, and policing started before police departments. For example, when did New Jersey get rid of its last slave?


I'm guessing in 1865. But by 1860, NJ had only 18 slaves and had no slaves in Essex County (where Newark, the largest city that founded its PD in 1857, is).

As for policing, yes, even neighborhood watch is a form of policing. But I'm referring to modem Government-managed professional policing - privatizing this can of course lead to all sorts of issues (even if it might actually be cheaper), including much worse excesses since that sort of community "policing" often looks a lot like mob justice. Also, two cities may not be the whole North but in that part of the country, professional policing began in the cities IIRC and those two are among the largest ones.

Pants-of-dog wrote:3. What magical information do you think will come to light that will make sense of the killing? What can we learn that will justify the killing and allow us to understand why the cops and the DA decided that these cops do not even need to be charged?


It's hard to name unknown unknowns, which is why I would like the DA to elaborate. If DAs aren't forced to then a reform would be warranted to have them defend their decisions in this matter. Hence the idea I mentioned earlier about Court declarations on the matter - DAs would of course be able to explain their actions.
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