African-American Asphyxiated by Police in Minneapolis - Page 153 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15105586
I have to say its amusing to hear lefties whining about the power of Police Unions, when in their favourite countries like Cuba, the Soviet Union and North Korea, the police unions run the country. They often call themselves Communist Parties or Peoples Parties, but all they really are is a giant parasitic police force. No we won't be taking any lectures from Commies on how to run a justice system.
#15105602
@wat0n

1. Body cams are not a reliable deterrent. Ask Elijah McCain.

2, So we agree that policing in the north started when there were still slaves around.

3. So there is no information that can reconcile the fact that his death was unjustified with your argument that the system is fair and works. Since that is the case, Elijah McCain’s death shows us that the systemic racism of police is still a problem.
#15105605
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

1. Body cams are not a reliable deterrent. Ask Elijah McCain.


The decrease in rates doesn't lie, Mr. Anecdotal Evidence. Also I'm calling the Nirvana Fallacy once again: Just because it doesn't end all incidents, but merely decreases their incidence, it doesn't mean bodycams are not useful.

Pants-of-dog wrote:2, So we agree that policing in the north started when there were still slaves around.


Not within the jurisdiction of the PDs involved, as far as I'm aware.

Pants-of-dog wrote:3. So there is no information that can reconcile the fact that his death was unjustified with your argument that the system is fair and works. Since that is the case, Elijah McCain’s death shows us that the systemic racism of police is still a problem.


We don't even know that either - that's how it seems, though, which is why it's good that the AG is going to be involved, given the apparent loss of confidence on Aurora's DA work.
#15105608
@wat0n

1. The decrease in force is self reported and does not include brutality.

2. No one is talking about specific jurisdictions of specific departments.

3. You already agree the killing was unjust. You also agreed that the cops claim it is legal and are not pressing charges. You already agreed that the DA said it was legal and is not pressing charges. and you agreed that the only reason the AG is stepping in is because of widespread protests, and you agree that widespread protests are not part of the system and are a reaction to an unequal dynamic that black people need to overcome in irder to get justice.
#15105611
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

1. The decrease in force is self reported and does not include brutality.


We are going in circles now. Feel free to explain why do you think under-reporting is more severe among those randomly selected cops who were carrying bodycams.

Pants-of-dog wrote:2. No one is talking about specific jurisdictions of specific departments.


You won't see them policing areas out of their jurisdiction.

Pants-of-dog wrote:3. You already agree the killing was unjust. You also agreed that the cops claim it is legal and are not pressing charges. You already agreed that the DA said it was legal and is not pressing charges. and you agreed that the only reason the AG is stepping in is because of widespread protests, and you agree that widespread protests are not part of the system and are a reaction to an unequal dynamic that black people need to overcome in irder to get justice.


I said that it's unjustified based on the information that has been made available so far. But I understand that such information may be incomplete and I don't just assume to know more about it than the prosecutors do. Hence why it's fine to have the AG investigating.
#15105614
@wat0n

1. No. That is not part if my argument.

2. Then it is a good thing that the policing forces had no jurisdiction back then as we know them.

3. You already agreed that the police are the only people who are withholding information. And this lack of information is part of the reason why body cams are ineffective.
#15105619
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

1. No. That is not part if my argument.


If it's the same on average across both groups, then the decrease is still real.

Pants-of-dog wrote:2. Then it is a good thing that the policing forces had no jurisdiction back then as we know them.


What do you mean?

Pants-of-dog wrote:3. You already agreed that the police are the only people who are withholding information. And this lack of information is part of the reason why body cams are ineffective.


It shows that not filming a police procedure when it should be possible to should be forbidden. Had it been filmed, we would not be having this discussion, and we would not need to speculate based on press reports.
#15105623
1. Again, we have no evidence that it decreases brutality.

2. Policing in the northern states did not start with departments and jurisdictions. It started before that.

3. It was filmed. They had body cams. They are not releasing them.

Edit: I have been referring to Elijah McClain as Elijah McCain, my bad.
#15105625
Pants-of-dog wrote:1. Again, we have no evidence that it decreases brutality.


Argumentum ad nauseam?

Pants-of-dog wrote:2. Policing in the northern states did not start with departments and jurisdictions. It started before that.


Before then, it was managed privately by the communities themselves. Simply put, random people would pick guns up and start patrolling their communities.

Pants-of-dog wrote:3. It was filmed. They had body cams. They are not releasing them.

Edit: I have been referring to Elijah McClain as Elijah McCain, my bad.


The bodycam footage is public.
#15105668
@wat0n

If the bodycam footage is public, it is difficult to argue that we will be provided some new information that will justify the killing of Mr. McClain. I assumed they had not been released precisely because you said that there is still information to be made available. Other than that footage, what possible evidence could there be to justify his murder?

Boston had a force of police called the Watch that opera5ed from 1631 to 1854.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Watch

NYC had the rattle watchmen (the original Green Lanterns!) from 1658 onwards.
https://ephemeralnewyork.wordpress.com/ ... amsterdam/

These were organised and paid forces, though originally they were volunteer when the towns were first settled.

————————-

Also, how do MDP officers afford bail payments of $750,000?

Seems high for a police officer’s salary.

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/07/0 ... posts-bail
Last edited by Pants-of-dog on 06 Jul 2020 21:46, edited 1 time in total.
#15105672
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

If the bodycam footage is public, it is difficult to argue that we will be provided some new information that will justify the killing of Mr. McClain. I assumed they had not been released precisely because you said that there is still information to be made available. Other than that footage, what possible evidence could there be to justify his murder?


You should see the footage, I watched it for a while and the bodycam worn by the cop who was closest to the action dropped onto the floor, which is why it is not conclusive either way. Whether it was dropped in purpose or not is another matter - I don't know, but either way these things should be penalized.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Boston had a force of police called the Watch that opera5ed from 1631 to 1854.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Watch

NYC had the rattle watchmen (the original Green Lanterns!) from 1658 onwards.
https://ephemeralnewyork.wordpress.com/ ... amsterdam/

These were organised and paid forces, though originally they were volunteer when the towns were first settled.


And they were not professional, usually members of the community would join them (as volunteers or even for pay) as a side activity to their usual ones. In that sense, they cannot be compared to present-day police forces - they were simply neighborhood watches, and they even operated along the PDs' precursors when the latter were being formed. If anything this was literally what community policing looks like in the most obvious sense of the term.

This paralleled the development of professional policing in the UK itself, where professional police forces were formed in the early 18th century (for roads, at first, and during the 19th century for policing cities themselves). In other European countries (e.g. France and Spain) this process began in the 13th and 14th centuries, where road police forces were a branch of the Crown's armies (e.g. the French Gendarmerie began like that in the early 14th century and they even fought in the Battle of Agincourt in 1415).
#15105678
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

1. The cop should be penalised for dropping the camera, but not for the murder. I see.


The cop should be penalized for dropping the camera regardless of whether he's found guilty of murder. The first one is something we know directly from the video, but the latter is up for an inquiry.

Pants-of-dog wrote:2. Provide evidence that these forces were not professional. Thanks. They certainly were at least as professional as the killers of Mr. Floyd and Mr. McClain.


Gary Potter wrote:The History of Policing in the United States

The development of policing in the United States closely followed the development of policing in England. In the early colonies policing took two forms. It was both informal and communal, which is referred to as the “Watch,” or private-for-profit policing, which is called “The Big Stick” (Spitzer, 1979).

The watch system was composed of community volunteers whose primary duty was to warn of impending danger. Boston created a night watch in 1636, New York in 1658 and Philadelphia in 1700. The night watch was not a particularly effective crime control device. Watchmen often slept or drank on duty. While the watch was theoretically voluntary, many “volunteers” were simply attempting to evade military service, were conscript forced into service by their town, or were performing watch duties as a form of punishment. Philadelphia created the first day watch in 1833 and New York instituted a day watch in 1844 as a supplement to its new municipal police force (Gaines, Kappeler, and Vaughn 1999).

Augmenting the watch system was a system of constables, official law enforcement officers, usually paid by the fee system for warrants they served. Constables had a variety of non-law enforcement functions to perform as well, including serving as land surveyors and verifying the accuracy of weights and measures. In many cities constables were given the responsibility of supervising the activities of the night watch.

These informal modalities of policing continued well after the American Revolution. It was not until the 1830s that the idea of a centralized municipal police department first emerged in the United States. In 1838, the city of Boston established the first American police force, followed by New York City in 1845, Albany, NY and Chicago in 1851, New Orleans and Cincinnati in 1853, Philadelphia in 1855, and Newark, NJ and Baltimore in 1857 (Harring 1983, Lundman 1980; Lynch 1984). By the 1880s all major U.S. cities had municipal police forces in place.

These “modern police” organizations shared similar characteristics: (1) they were publicly supported and bureaucratic in form; (2) police officers were fulltime employees, not community volunteers or case-by-case fee retainers; (3) departments had permanent and fixed rules and procedures, and employment as a police officers was continuous; (4) police departments were accountable to a central governmental authority (Lundman 1980).

In the Southern states the development of American policing followed a different path. The genesis of the modern police organization in the South is the “Slave Patrol” (Platt 1982). The first formal slave patrol was created in the Carolina colonies in 1704 (Reichel 1992). Slave patrols had three primary functions: (1) to chase down, apprehend, and return to their owners, runaway slaves; (2) to provide a form of organized terror to deter slave revolts; and, (3) to maintain a form of discipline for slave-workers who were subject to summary justice, outside of the law, if they violated any plantation rules. Following the Civil War, these vigilante-style organizations evolved in modern Southern police departments primarily as a means of controlling freed slaves who were now laborers working in an agricultural caste system, and enforcing “Jim Crow” segregation laws, designed to deny freed slaves equal rights and access to the political system.

...


So no, policing emerged for different reasons in the North and the South, and so did PDs. Before the advent of professional police forces, too, these forces were ineffective at their jobs either way. PDs were better, although they of course had their fair share of the corruption and brutality characteristic of 19th century America.
#15105703
Pants-of-dog wrote:1. Again, we have no evidence that it decreases brutality.

2. Policing in the northern states did not start with departments and jurisdictions. It started before that.

3. It was filmed. They had body cams. They are not releasing them.

Edit: I have been referring to Elijah McClain as Elijah McCain, my bad.

Hey POD:

I will gladly give away one George Floyd once a year if we could save all the black children murdered in cities that have black mayors, black chief of police , and Democratic Party city government.
#15105708
I will gladly give away one George Floyd once a year if we could save all the black children murdered in cities that have black mayors, black chief of police , and Democratic Party city government.


And yet another disgusting racist comment. I know Klan members who are more subtle than this yahoo.
#15105709
Drlee wrote:And yet another disgusting racist comment. I know Klan members who are more subtle than this yahoo.


Children were murdered in cities under the control of Democrat black mayors. Someone had to say it. Where is BLM on this? You are racist by pretending this is not an issue.
Last edited by Julian658 on 07 Jul 2020 02:02, edited 1 time in total.
#15105710
@Julian658 Children were murdered in cities under the control of Democrat black mayors. Someone had to say it. Where is BLM on this? You are racist by pretending this is not an issue or that this is racist.


So which is worse? Julian does not know this is racist or that he does not know what BLM (which he has been whining about for hundreds of pages) is for.

By the way Einstein. The 10 most dangerous states in the US are all red states. Why didn't you know that? :roll:

Racists are just not that smart.
#15105712
Drlee wrote:So which is worse? Julian does not know this is racist or that he does not know what BLM (which he has been whining about for hundreds of pages) is for.

By the way Einstein. The 10 most dangerous states in the US are all red states. Why didn't you know that? :roll:

Racists are just not that smart.

Cities ran by black mayors are way more dangerous. Feel free to name the ten states.

Atlanta mayor calls for citizens to stop 'shooting each other' after murder of 8-year-old near BLM protest site
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/atlant ... otest-site

Listen to the mayor of Atlanta; She is coming around while you still have your head in your ass.

#15105733
What is your racist point? You just keep doubling down on blaming the victims. Now you are saying that black leaders are incompetent because they are black.

General observation about no one in particular. I hate racist cocksuckers. Wait. I apologize to cocksuckers. Racists are, in my experience, the least educated and certainly most intellectually challenged people on the planet. I have never met one with an IQ above about 90. And very few that high.
#15105734
Drlee wrote:Julian does not know this is racist or that he does not know what BLM (which he has been whining about for hundreds of pages) is for.

BLM is for getting Democrats elected while obscuring the fact that the problems affecting the black community come mostly from Democrat party politicians and the police forces and justice system they command.
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