Who We Are: Racism in America with Jeffrey Robinson - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15106316
Wulfschilde wrote:
We are approaching a point where it will be pretty much impossible to give blacks anything they don't already have.

No police? You got it.

Workplace affirmative action and getting paid for other people's work? Probably going to happen.

No drug or sex work regulations? That's on the way too.

What will they even be able to demand after that? And despite it all, "true communism" will still not work. Sooner or later things will have to give and it will be more Russia and China, not whatever my little Pony stuff that American communists hazily imagine.



Julian658 wrote:
The next stage is cash reparations.
But, it does not matter, there will always be grievance because that is how the system is set up: PERENNIAL GRIEVANCE AND VICTIMHOOD. Why victimhood? There is some sort of advantage in embracing the role of the noble victim.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... re/405784/



What about *perennial slavery*, that lasted around 400 years formally, and continues today in the form of human trafficking?

'True communism' wouldn't be realized through existing bourgeois nation-states in a global sea of capitalism.

Tell me what's 'my-little-pony' about *this*:


Emergent Central Planning

Spoiler: show
Image
#15106339
ckaihatsu wrote:What about *perennial slavery*, that lasted around 400 years formally, and continues today in the form of human trafficking?

'True communism' wouldn't be realized through existing bourgeois nation-states in a global sea of capitalism.

Tell me what's 'my-little-pony' about *this*:


Emergent Central Planning

Spoiler: show
Image

I am not so sure communism would solve the issue of perennial grievances. I will say that in Cuba the racism is much less and many blacks don't even know they are black. However, there is still a hierarchy where those of Spanish descent seem to fare better in Cuban society.
#15106345
Julian658 wrote:
I am not so sure communism would solve the issue of perennial grievances.



Well, what are the grievances? Income, housing, education, institutional racism, killer cops, and so on.

Once you get rid of class elitism you get rid of the material *disparities* inherent to all of these social ills, because everyone would be able to access the means of production to produce *anything* they want, or arrangements could be made with those who are willing to do the (liberated) work. Collective society, on liberated implements, would have a collective interest in *automating* as much work as possible, so that people could do *less* and get *more*, overall. (Similar to digital technology today.)


Julian658 wrote:
I will say that in Cuba the racism is much less and many blacks don't even know they are black. However, there is still a hierarchy where those of Spanish descent seem to fare better in Cuban society.



And why do you think this is -- that racism continues to exist *everywhere* in the world?
#15106360
ckaihatsu wrote:Well, what are the grievances? Income, housing, education, institutional racism, killer cops, and so on.

Once you get rid of class elitism you get rid of the material *disparities* inherent to all of these social ills, because everyone would be able to access the means of production to produce *anything* they want, or arrangements could be made with those who are willing to do the (liberated) work. Collective society, on liberated implements, would have a collective interest in *automating* as much work as possible, so that people could do *less* and get *more*, overall. (Similar to digital technology today.)


I cannot disagree with the concept. However, not really sure it is a possibility because humans are not equipped to function in that manner.





And why do you think this is -- that racism continues to exist *everywhere* in the world?


Evolution-------we evolved in tribes. In group preference which may not necessarily be racism. When all humans have the exact skin tone in about 10-15k years (assuming no asteroid impact) we will have classism. The English were all white and yet class was everything.
#15106366
Julian658 wrote:
I cannot disagree with the concept. However, not really sure it is a possibility because humans are not equipped to function in that manner.



Yeah, you can't be sure because all you look to is *genetics* / biology / psychology -- you have no grasp of how the *socio-political* world works, so you can't find any *precedents*, like soviet democracy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_democracy


---


Julian658 wrote:
I will say that in Cuba the racism is much less and many blacks don't even know they are black. However, there is still a hierarchy where those of Spanish descent seem to fare better in Cuban society.



ckaihatsu wrote:
And why do you think this is -- that racism continues to exist *everywhere* in the world?



Julian658 wrote:
Evolution-------we evolved in tribes. In group preference which may not necessarily be racism. When all humans have the exact skin tone in about 10-15k years (assuming no asteroid impact) we will have classism. The English were all white and yet class was everything.



We have 'classism' / class rule *now* -- it's why there's racism, because institutional racism, like the state's killer cops, is an *intentional policy*. Wealthy people aren't killed by cops, so there's the class rule right there.
#15106381
ckaihatsu wrote:Yeah, you can't be sure because all you look to is *genetics* / biology / psychology -- you have no grasp of how the *socio-political* world works, so you can't find any *precedents*, like soviet democracy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_democracy


---











We have 'classism' / class rule *now* -- it's why there's racism, because institutional racism, like the state's killer cops, is an *intentional policy*. Wealthy people aren't killed by cops, so there's the class rule right there.
I have to agree, If a person looks like an aristocrat that person will get preferential treatment. Sometimes it pays to pretend one is an aristocrat even if it is fake, LOL.
#15106383
Julian658 wrote:
I have to agree, If a person looks like an aristocrat that person will get preferential treatment. Sometimes it pays to pretend one is an aristocrat even if it is fake, LOL.




As we go about our daily lives, caste is the wordless usher in a darkened theater, flashlight cast down in the aisles, guiding us to our assigned seats for a performance. The hierarchy of caste is not about feelings or morality. It is about power — which groups have it and which do not. It is about resources — which groups are seen as worthy of them and which are not, who gets to acquire and control them and who does not. It is about respect, authority and assumptions of competence — who is accorded these and who is not.



https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/01/maga ... caste.html
#15106385
[quote="ckaihatsu"][/quote]
I do not disagree.

I believe racism and classism could be ameliorated if we had a global philosophy of treating others as individuals and not as members of a class or group. If we were able to ALWAYS assess the INDIVIDUAL and divorce that person from the stereotypes there would be no racism. However, we are marching backwards. We are putting emphasis on racial group, class, political views, religion, nationality, etc. This naturally leads to division. We expect certain behaviors according to phenotype.
#15106386
Julian658 wrote:
I do not disagree.

I believe racism and classism could be ameliorated if we had a global philosophy of treating others as individuals and not as members of a class or group. If we were able to ALWAYS assess the INDIVIDUAL and divorce that person from the stereotypes there would be no racism. However, we are marching backwards. We are putting emphasis on racial group, class, political views, religion, nationality, etc. This naturally leads to division. We expect certain behaviors according to phenotype.



Here's the *tricky* part -- what would this look like *economically*?
#15106399
ckaihatsu wrote:Here's the *tricky* part -- what would this look like *economically*?


Once racism disappears by treating others as individual you are left with a hierarchy of talent that often translates to different levels of success and hence different socioeconomic levels. One could say this may precipitate classism, however this can be avoided by treating all comers as individuals. What a concept!!!
#15106402
Julian658 wrote:
Once racism disappears by treating others as individual you are left with a hierarchy of talent that often translates to different levels of success and hence different socioeconomic levels. One could say this may precipitate classism, however this can be avoided by treating all comers as individuals. What a concept!!!



Ready for more?

How do we get from *here*, to *there*?

If you want a meritocracy of individualism, and we *don't* have that now, what would have to change, exactly, for future generations to *have* that world of individuality-driven meritocracy? And what would its *economics* look like, exactly? How would you *guarantee* that it remained a meritocracy over time?
#15106411
ckaihatsu wrote:Ready for more?

How do we get from *here*, to *there*?

If you want a meritocracy of individualism, and we *don't* have that now, what would have to change, exactly, for future generations to *have* that world of individuality-driven meritocracy? And what would its *economics* look like, exactly? How would you *guarantee* that it remained a meritocracy over time?


I think it would be easy to propagate the meme of treating all comers as individuals than worldwide communism.

The problem with hierarchies is that they tend to become corrupt. This is true of left and right wing models. The reason capitalism does not work as well as it should is corruption.

So why do humans have a proclivity to corruption? Why is Danny Ortega, Socialista número uno en Central America so corrupt? I guess power is a narcotic that leads to corruption. Paradoxically, I think the tendency to corruption is greater on the left than the right. When Adam Smith said: Virtue is more to be feared than vice, because its excesses are not subject to the regulation of conscience. . He was not kidding, we all know this is true.
#15106417
Julian658 wrote:
I think it would be easy to propagate the meme of treating all comers as individuals than worldwide communism.

The problem with hierarchies is that they tend to become corrupt. This is true of left and right wing models. The reason capitalism does not work as well as it should is corruption.

So why do humans have a proclivity to corruption? Why is Danny Ortega, Socialista número uno en Central America so corrupt? I guess power is a narcotic that leads to corruption. Paradoxically, I think the tendency to corruption is greater on the left than the right. When Adam Smith said: Virtue is more to be feared than vice, because its excesses are not subject to the regulation of conscience. . He was not kidding, we all know this is true.



Jesus Christ, Julian, you just *have* to snap back to your prescribed *talking points*, don't you?

I hope you're getting paid enough for your professional bullshit here.

So now it's divine / genetic / biological / psychological precept, according to you, that people are 'corrupt', and not the system of capitalism.

And your political adversaries in Nicaragua have to be denounced, huh?

See, you can't answer my reasonable questions because you *have* no vision.


Consciousness, A Material Definition

Spoiler: show
Image



You're proving yourself to be more of a *hatchet man*, than anything else.

Just *forget* it, nevermind, if you can't even show others how your preferred politics is even *feasible* -- it's *not*. Guess I gotta still be a communist since no one's showing any alternatives! (grin)
#15106423
ckaihatsu wrote:Jesus Christ, Julian, you just *have* to snap back to your prescribed *talking points*, don't you?

I hope you're getting paid enough for your professional bullshit here.

So now it's divine / genetic / biological / psychological precept, according to you, that people are 'corrupt', and not the system of capitalism.

And your political adversaries in Nicaragua have to be denounced, huh?

See, you can't answer my reasonable questions because you *have* no vision.


Consciousness, A Material Definition

Spoiler: show
Image



You're proving yourself to be more of a *hatchet man*, than anything else.

Just *forget* it, nevermind, if you can't even show others how your preferred politics is even *feasible* -- it's *not*. Guess I gotta still be a communist since no one's showing any alternatives! (grin)


You are a social constructionist that neglects the fact that we are biological entities. That is the basic discrepancy.
#15106426
Julian658 wrote:
You are a social constructionist that neglects the fact that we are biological entities. That is the basic discrepancy.



Who're you calling a 'discrepancy' -- ?

Really, though, I'd love to hear your awkward attempts to find a way to enforce 'meritocracy' over a whole society, and one with private property and finance, at that.

Did I tell you the anecdote about the rich person with *millions* in a savings account, at 1% interest? At 1% interest that person would get *tens of thousands of dollars* per year, while having to do *nothing* -- no work whatsoever, not the *least* bit of effort.

Is this the kind of thing you *embrace*, or would you be looking to *avoid* such a situation from happening?
#15106427
Julian658 wrote:Once racism disappears by treating others as individual you are left with a hierarchy of talent that often translates to different levels of success and hence different socioeconomic levels. One could say this may precipitate classism, however this can be avoided by treating all comers as individuals. What a concept!!!

I agree with quite a bit of what you say. I don't know exactly where you're coming from, so I'm not presuming we agree or disagree on these finer points. As I see it both Communists and Right Libertarians suffer from (or perhaps that should be make us suffer from) the same conceit, that politics can be abolished. It can't. Human beings will always form into groups and those groups will always become develop antagonisms.
#15106430
Rich wrote:
I agree with quite a bit of what you say. I don't know exactly where you're coming from, so I'm not presuming we agree or disagree on these finer points. As I see it both Communists and Right Libertarians suffer from (or perhaps that should be make us suffer from) the same conceit, that politics can be abolished. It can't. Human beings will always form into groups and those groups will always become develop antagonisms.



I myself don't subscribe to the 'heaven' conception of communism, but I do know the type you're referring to.

I made a model that would facilitate any kind of post-capitalist social-politics that could conceivably occur, and most-likely *would* occur, because collectivized industrial implements, being finite, would have to be scheduled *somehow*.

I don't think that the 'tribalism' you're describing would remain, though. I guess there *could* still be parties, or at least social factions, but I'd *prefer* a more granular, ad-hoc bottom-up kind of process for anything and everything.


labor credits framework for 'communist supply & demand'

Spoiler: show
Image


https://www.revleft.space/vb/threads/20 ... ost2889338


Emergent Central Planning

Spoiler: show
Image
#15106436
ckaihatsu wrote:Who're you calling a 'discrepancy' -- ?

Really, though, I'd love to hear your awkward attempts to find a way to enforce 'meritocracy' over a whole society, and one with private property and finance, at that.

Did I tell you the anecdote about the rich person with *millions* in a savings account, at 1% interest? At 1% interest that person would get *tens of thousands of dollars* per year, while having to do *nothing* -- no work whatsoever, not the *least* bit of effort.

Is this the kind of thing you *embrace*, or would you be looking to *avoid* such a situation from happening?

The flaws of capitalism are well known.
Ideally whomever pays the 1% interest to the investor is using that money to perhaps gain a 4% return. His net gain is 3%. Nevertheless, you have a point: The accumulation of cash makes it quite easy to make additional cash with minimal effort. The hard part was making the cash from ground zero. But, true The Matthew Effect is always at play and those that have more get much more. Right now Amazon and Wall Mart are competing for a larger share of the market. These two have billions and billions and I wonder why do they want more? In any even, the more they fight each other for the dominant position in retail the greater the benefit to the consumer. They will offer more for less to be the top dog.

The question is: Are they taking money away from the poor as they make billions? That has been the mantra of the SJW types in this forum and everywhere. Or are they simply creating wealth and the poor person loses nothing? What do you think?
#15106443
Julian658 wrote:
The flaws of capitalism are well known.
Ideally whomever pays the 1% interest to the investor is using that money to perhaps gain a 4% return. His net gain is 3%. Nevertheless, you have a point: The accumulation of cash makes it quite easy to make additional cash with minimal effort. The hard part was making the cash from ground zero. But, true The Matthew Effect is always at play and those that have more get much more. Right now Amazon and Wall Mart are competing for a larger share of the market. These two have billions and billions and I wonder why do they want more? In any even, the more they fight each other for the dominant position in retail the greater the benefit to the consumer. They will offer more for less to be the top dog.

The question is: Are they taking money away from the poor as they make billions? That has been the mantra of the SJW types in this forum and everywhere. Or are they simply creating wealth and the poor person loses nothing? What do you think?



So, since you know that capital is rewarded with *more* capital, how would you address / fix this, according to your 'individualist meritocracy' politics?

I'm not going to attempt to address the relation between exchange values and use values -- there *is* something of an empirical measurement that exists, in nation-based GDP-to-debt ratios, but that's still entirely within *exchange values* themselves, without any connection to use values, though.

The *point*, at this point, is really to say that we need to eliminate *exchange values* altogether, because they're *far* from being meritocratic in any sense, and society doesn't need capital or any kind of abstract quantitative values whatsoever. Especially given today's communication technologies (the Internet, servers, etc.), we can do everything using *data*, and we don't need *exchanges*, either -- post-capitalist collectivist social production can be based on any specific plan to fulfill unmet *human need*, and once those items are produced, they can be sent *directly* to the consumer -- 'direct distribution', like we have with online ordering today. No exchanges, no markets. Those who *want* to work for the common good / communist-type gift economy, could do so, or not, and still receive from 'the commons' that *others* have provided-to. No exchange values needed, no capital, no exchanges, no markets.

Here's my proposed model framework for such:


labor credits framework for 'communist supply & demand'

Spoiler: show
Image


https://www.revleft.space/vb/threads/20 ... ost2889338


Emergent Central Planning

Spoiler: show
Image
#15106446
blackjack21 wrote:Actually, they do it very democratically. They are just very dishonest about their intentions.

I am going to attempt the bold stuff again. Damn frustrating. No BJ, it is all bullshit. Historically Puerto Rico never had a pro-statehood platform till 1968. I won't go into a long explanation for that. Politicians being dishonest about their intentions? Color me surprised. :lol:



I'm for a representative republic with some limits on suffrage--e.g., idiots cannot vote.

Who exactly qualifies as an idiot? You know the Americans with Disabilities Act is not going to like you discriminating against them if it is about low IQ. Didn't Trump say he likes the uneducated? And the people who he has on his side? No, BJ, I find a lot of human beings in the USA largely ignorant about everything. Geography, history, advanced math, science, and a lot more. They can go through graduate school and wind up speaking only English. That is unusual in Mexico, Puerto Rico, Asia, Africa, etc, and Europe. It has to do with those with more power to get conveniences. But it doesn't make for bright people knowing what they are talking about. It sounds arrogant but the truth is that knowledge requires work. Reading, writing, and thinking and organizing concepts. You either love that or you don't, and the purpose of education is to help you become the best you can be. Not to be easy to lie to and snow. But that is the world we are living in BJ. People make bad choices in politics all the time. Simply from a lack of understanding it or being educated on it. It also is about tradition. If a family has always been Democrats, etc they will continue to be so. If you stopped someone in the states and asked them which early presidents of the USA were slave owners? Most would not know. One of my favorite presidents was John Adams and John Quincy Adams. Who was Jefferson? Many did not know the details of his life. People are complex BJ. They always have been. The sin of the powerful and wealthy have been to think the lower classes as individuals are not as complex as they are. That is a mistake.


These are two different constructs. One is class, the other is race. Are you saying that these groups are a race or a class?
I think it is important to put in how I view humans in a video. Class and race are interlinked in the history of the USA and many other nations. Slaveowners from Louisiana when they lost to the North moved to Brazil. Slavery was legal in Brazil until 1899. They wanted to keep their institution and it was a stronger ideal for them than being a so-called American. That is the reality for many. Patriotism is weak. It is more about economic status.


Well, that's a way of reducing me to a two-dimensional character, which I'm not.

And you think you see me as a three-dimensional complex person BJ? With your patronizing lines? Lol. How can you be a complex man that I know well on a message board? We are what we write in here Senor. That is all we have to work with? It is not zoom or youtube and you get to see the facial expressions. We are words in here.


When have I ever suggested that the rest of the world should be about the USA only?

Do I have to explain to you what is wrong with excessive nationalism? Imperialists are about the rest of the world is ours and they better obey or some violence or economic harsh measures will be brought to bear. The USA keeps things in check with FEAR and VIOLENCE. That is the truth BJ. That carrot and stick diplomacy is the American Way. Being from a tiny island like I am and seeing with my own two eyes how HORRIBLE that shit is for freedom and a democratic form of rule? I hate it. I won't elaborate. You get the picture. They have to interfere and they have to impose. Stop imposing and stop interfering. Be respectful and be satisfied with the wealth as it is. Don't seek to create misery and fear. It won't end well in human history. There were other human civilizations who were like that and none of it ended well.

Really? So tell me how the Minneapolis Police Department, governed by a Democrat Mayor and a black chief of police sends four officers--two white, one black and one Asian--to address the situation with George Floyd, and the situation still ended up fucked up? When you break down those decision makers, you have three white people--the mayor and two police officers; and three minorities--the black chief of police and one police officer, and an Asian police officer. You've got your "rainbow" representation on that very case, and yet George Floyd still ended up dead with a knee on his neck. Here, the minorities are over-represented on a per capita basis and there is no change in the end result.

There is a very decent explanation. The police have been used to substitute for mental health counselors, drug addiction treatment professionals, responsible parents, psychologists, etc. Because this is what it is about BJ.


Killology guy:





It was the role to put diverse faces on the law enforcement arm. But it is about the state controlling. The state it is about violent overthrows too. I see correlations between it and Latin American movements.



My point in the thread about the Seattle black man arrested for running over a few white black lives women is that none of this superficial racial diversity seems to make any material difference whatsoever. A bunch of liberal white women get themselves injured and one of themselves killed campaigning for Black Lives Matter, and a black man still ends up in jail. The media doesn't cover the racial angle of that story, because they do not see the irony of leftist politics. Your point would have been an interesting one 25 years ago, but from the circumstances surrounding George Floyd's death and the BLM and Antifa antics that followed, we have ample evidence to the contrary.

The USA has a lot of stupid ideas of how to cope with ethnic conflicts. Both parties are deeply rooted in racist justifications BJ. It is a long and arduous task to deal with it. You never answered BJ about if you want a Back to Africa movement or do you want the African Americans to stay in the USA? Yes or no? And why or why not? Go ahead I want to hear your solution to 'getting along'?


I work in cloud computing. We don't crush poor people to dust in my line of work. That's a 19th and maybe early 20th Century Marxist narrative about industrialism. It doesn't make sense in other contexts. Who have I caused untold pain, suffering and harm?

You don't care. That simple act says it all. If you don't know how that works? I won't explain it to you. Because it means you won't be able to recognize the problem. I don't deal with people who don't care. It is useless to waste time on such things.


They happen to give more to charity than most people, and are generally happier as well.

Research Finds Conservatives Are More Happy, Generous, And Purposeful Than Liberals

I am not a liberal. I don't find the liberals happy or conservatives either. The liberals with their fake solutions and the conservatives with the reptile solutions. No. Such is the state of lack of commitment to dealing with people in a logical and compassionate manner is glaring on both sides.

That already happened to them in the middle of the 20th Century, and mostly because their congressional membership is too worried about appearances and manners and doesn't stand up and fight against the political left.

Who are these people?


Violent anti-social people are worse in my opinion.

Do these have a race or are they about behavior. One of the most repulsive criminals I have ever heard about was this German freak. A white man? Would I be correct in throwing you in a basket with that fuck? No. Then why do that with Latinos or Blacks? The answer is racist mentalities. Violent and anti-social is about behaviors.



He is a white guy. Despicable human being and he repulsed me terribly. I guess all those white men are like that man? That is what I don't like BJ. Dehumanizing an entire group and making them responsible for something they have nothing to do with. You do that shit all the time. You think science is there...Africans are genetically anti-social. I would say that pig that did that to that little girl and the old woman and so on is a super-criminal of the worst type. If I controlled society and a narrative in that society? Where Africans were imperialists and were wealthy off the backs of white slaves for centuries and then used that fuck as an excuse to round up men like you and make your life a fucking hell trying to not be thrown in with the few 'supercriminals' and making a cop force with a few white faces in a sea of black ones....and using the shit media and everything else? How would you feel about it? You are incredibly incapable of any sort of reciprocity in terms of being aware of what is being messaged and peddled to people who are not part of a narrative. I don't like anything you say about those things BJ. They lack a sense of humanness. I am being completely honest. You don't identify with others not from your group on a human level. I am almost to the point of not expecting it from you. Once I understand that? Ya se acabo.


The major party candidate with ties to the war mongers in this year's presidential race is Joe Biden. Trump ended up firing his few war mongers and not starting any new wars, which is refreshing.

No, BJ, you are one of the most conventional thinkers in that way I have ever met. If you want me to elaborate I will. But suffice it to say that you are not the kind of thinker I like at all. You want things to be kind of pushed back but forward. You fit in with PoFo stuff but with how progress works with human beings. It is interesting to note that though.

By having black police chiefs preside over the oppression of black people at the hands of the police?

Do you think that is new? Didn't you hear Fannie Lou Hamer's testimony in 1962's freedom summer film? The white cop had two black prisoners beat her almost to death. He did not do it himself. You did not see 12 years a Slave? The Epps guy who was the slaver wanted Solomon the Slave to whip his slave Patsy for him. He lacked the courage to do it himself like most abusive cowards do BJ? You don't study that kind of history do you? I am no surprised. Let me post Fannie Lou Hamer's testimony again and the scene from the book 12 years a slave. Refresh your memory about using black people to do the dirty work? You never heard of it? It is about power BJ. Plain and simple. The depths of degradation and horror the human species can stoop to exercise power over others? One happens in 1962 and the other happens in the 1840s. But they both use black men to do the dirty work? You did not know that?







I used to be a Republican. How many times have I said that they are useless as tits on a bull? That's not a compliment or an endorsement by any stretch of the imagination.

How you feel about the Democratic party? I feel about the Republican party. Evil incarnate. To me they are Satan and not much else. Always. Not when you thought they were nice. Or whatever. No. I found them Devil like always. I hate capitalism BJ. I will tell you why? Because it makes property a bone of contention and more important than being humane and human relationships become these ugly materialistic shit states where no one is human. Everything is about money and profit and all that is the most significant about living in a human society is reduced to property and bank account numbers. Then people die. Without loving or giving or anything. Why is this allowed? Because it is a step above slavery. But just a step. It is not where we should be Blackjack as human beings in this world. We need to get beyond materialistic bullshit and deal with real human society and making this world a place in which all can be free. Free always. That is all. That is everything. I will never like capitalism. Ever. I have to live with it because it is a systemic thing. Like others who did not approve of slavery but had to deal with it because the law said releasing a slave from bondage was against the law and it required jail time. Even though morally it sucked. I am sure, there were slavers who could not imagine a world without slaves? But it exists. Just like I can imagine a world without capitalism? But you can't. I guess I do have a vivid imagination after all BJ. And I am glad of that! You keep your values and I keep mine eh? :)

I have to take a break.



That Donald Trump has begun to address, as it is the result of illegal immigration, excessive legal immigration and free trade policies with countries like China.

All part of capitalism. You defend capitalism. You have to take the good with the bad. Unfortunately can't back a system a step above slavery and in the middle of the shit manifestation of the worst of it? Want it to act or behave differently. No. Suck it up BJ. It is a very very rotten low system and not worthy of the best of what human beings can be. But you keep backing it and I will pressure it into changing. That is our roles here.


Well, when the big flat wage stagnation problem you describe is further analyzed, it does boil down to foreigners pretty quickly.

No, it boils down to neoliberals and capitalism. A pair made in Greedy Heaven. I don't thnk it is foreigners. It is greed inherent in a for profit system that doesn't care what color or nationality the cheap labor comes from. Again, it is your system that you continue to believe in. Like if it was a nice guy who happened to keep raping and murdering and you keep expecting better behavior. You need to realize ain't no hope for that piece of trash system BJ.



Country, blues, jazz, zydeco, hip hop, rap, big band, etc.--America has a long tradition in musical arts. America also invented the phonograph, movies, and television--spreading its culture all around the world, and bringing much world culture into the United States too.
Most of that is African American in origin. Lol. Give credit where credit is due. Lol. No, the USA borrows all art forms from people that it often finds 'inferior'. Like White People loving Taco Tuesdays and in the same breath hating Mexicans in the USA. Some white liberal racists hitting a Pinata and still thinking Mexicans are drug dealers only. Lol. No, nothing surprises me about White Americans appropriating other people's culture and then saying it is their invention. They got used to stealing all that all the time.


How can you conform if there are no strong traditions?

Compared to other nations? The USA is an invented relatively new nation cobbled together with groups of people who had root ties in other lands. It is a land of people who's only Native people were violently removed or killed or herded into reservations in order to 'make way' for immigrant groups desperate for wealth to take advantage of. And even they were not really part of anything greatly improved BJ. The USA is an immigrant based society from its inception. Any decent historian like Ken Burns can tell you that. Compared to a Japanese, Chinese or Hindi person from India? Compared to a Greek or a Roman Italian or a Mayan old tradition from this region of Mexico? The USA is still wet behind the ears and nouveau riche and horrifically adolescent in culture BJ. You can deny that? But the old artifacts tell a different story. You stick them in a machine and it tells you how old is that human civilization. The USA is new. An invention born of the French Enlightenment. A radical new frontier tied to old Latinos and Greeks from the Mediterranean area of the world. Not Anglo cold Albion. It is the reality? Why deny the obvious? The USA is new and frankly? Immature. Lol. They can't seem to just get over the need to reconcile the lack of thinking about equality might doom their teenage mentality civilization to doom.


America is very commercial. It's not ahistorical. It's disconnected from the Old World's history. Yes, we do have people trying to pull down statues of historical figures they don't like, but that's a separate matter.

America is capitalistic. See above of why I don't like that. I already explained it. @Potemkin and I had a discussion about why slavery was not allowed in England? But was encouraged in the USA? An interesting discussion. The English elite knew that it would create tremendous problems to do so. But the money was too tempting. An interesting premise indeed.

If it interests me, I do. I studied up a bit before going to New Orleans for the first time. Generally, a lot of my cultural studies co-incide with travel.

I hope this pandemic doesn't dissuade you from travel. It is a good thing. But for now, many people are doing staycations. My husband just wants to go to Mexico. I wish life was less complicated at times.


My father was a patron of Native American art. He frequently wore a turquoise belt and matching necktie made by Native American, Charles Loloma. My uncle, my father's twin brother, still wears it every day.

That is nice. My mother was honored by many Native American tribes. I have an artifact I have no idea what to do with? It is a bowl. Dated 3000 BC. It was given to her by the elders of that tribe. They said she was part of them always. She left it with me when she died. My mother worked with linguists to preserve their languages that were fading fast BJ. She worked with this dead linguist:

I can't cut and paste BJ, but if you stick Kenneth L. Hale in Wikipedia his life bio comes up. She worked with him. It is not about art or jewelry. it was about preserving their identities and avoiding assimilation BJ. Language is a very ancient and human thing. And it changes with time and human societies. It is a key to understanding human culture too. Ken Hale used to say that losing a human language and burying the last speaker of that language for all time? Was like burning a piece of art that won't ever be here again. Human beings should avoid assimilation at all costs BJ. Because the result is having a bunch of Africans who can't speak their languages and who lose their traditions and when they speak English and become Christian southern Baptists and share all that they know with their 'dominant' superiors? They still are not allowed to be human. That is a PROBLEM of epic size BJ. That only a cultural anthropologist knows about. You want to destroy history, make conquered believe they are inferior and unworthy of rights or respect? Make them self loathe themselves and have zero ability to understand their condition? Make them live in limbo without certainly and suffer the fires of hell? Kill their language. That is the faster route to destroying their souls. Imagine a Russian invasion? The USA loses wars. The Russians beat the fucking English out of you with a whip? Or threats of death and you being afraid of speaking a word of English or dying? You get the picture. That is soul-crushing Blackjack. And that is the story of the Africans and the Native Americans and also the Puerto Ricans. The USA had English only implemented in schools in Puerto Rico. You were punished for speaking Spanish. You also could go to jail for having a Puerto Rican flag in your house. 10 years of jail time. Also, a gag law where you were silenced for even discussing independence. It was considered sedition. Oppressive behavior BJ. Oppressive and intolerant. Only after there were bullets in congress and violence...the PR flag was allowed to fly. After years and years of asking politely. Only threats of death made them relent. Is that tolerable for a nationalist like you are? Think about it.


Now you have me laughing out loud. People always ask me how I learned to do what I do. On the bleeding edge of technology, there aren't a lot of predecessors. People have read my manuals and made countless presentations, making themselves look good without crediting me. I work with one guy who even used my work as a foundation for his masters degree thesis, and he used that to write a book. When I started getting bored with working on mass storage, I machine translated an architecture guide from English to German; that's when my bosses found a new role for me in telco-based cloud computing.

You did not sue him for copyright infringement? Hee hee hee. I am not a technical person. I can be. I used to have to teach mathematics and other things. But I never had a deep passion for it. I love history, culture, diverse cultures, ancient history, old things. I always have.


Uh... I'm working on 5G cloud computing technology. It's pretty much all about the future. In fact, much of the paper I'm currently writing involves disaggregating services in monolithic controller nodes, including addressing some of the problems of hyperconvergence, like the lack of flexibility it creates in the name of cost savings. However, it's all about bits and bites. I guess there's not enough corazon in computers for you.

I was born in 1966. Computers were not in common personal usage til probably the mid 1980s. I studied artistic things and cultural things. That is what I liked. Computers fucking bored the hell out of me. They still do. But my sons love them. I am sure they will find them useful. I care about corazon. It is more important than something that is about technology that you learn to deal with a device that is not going to 'love you back'. I saw that movie "Her" with Joaquin Phoenix and his relationship to an OS that was programmed for having a personal relationship. He was in love with a woman that did not exist. But he liked her more than real life. They had people writing personal love letters, family letters as a 'souvenir' from the past in it. The longing for human connection in a world run by machines and in which human beings no longer knew how to act with a real live flesh and blood relationship. It was too difficult. The fact that you had to deal with an independent will of that woman, her own thoughts and unguarded responses to you? Having to cope with an entire being that was not shaped by your own ego and independent of nature....they had lost the art of how to be human BJ. It was an interesting movie. Here is a clip. That is a computer that is answering him. Lol. People imitating human nature and it is funny and tragic. I don't go for it really. That is just me being born in 1966:





Indeed. So much of this is a product of your imagination anyway.

And your ideas of nationalist government is not? All politics is about a person's imagination and desires for society. Do you think yours is not about your own head? Politics is a social concept Relampago. It is about society. For me, nationalism is too narrow. It will never be flexible enough for what needs to happen. That is our real difference in a nutshell.

Somehow, I don't think Donald Trump was or is their first pick. It's nice to know that corporations aren't ruling Japan, Germany, France, the UK, etc. Imagine how dull it would be if Pemex, Groupo Carso, Bimbo, Femsa and others ruled Mexico. Good to know that's not happening...

Capitalism is a system that crosses borders Blackjack. It is everywhere and therefore that is why the neoliberals are in the driver's seat and not the nationalists like you are? You are interesting sometimes because I know you are not a naive man but you say naive things. Like this from above? You are kind of conformist.


I've been railing against them for over a decade.

I have been in the storm from my first early days. Such an interesting life. I think you are a late bloomer BJ about la politica.


The Democrats are worse than the Republicans--much more corrupt. It's fun to point out all their crap. Black Lives Matter. Please. Who is causing black people so many problems? Who doesn't care when black people are killing and getting killed? Who is ginning up these latest riots where black people are getting killed and their businesses burned? It's Democrats.

It is all a social experiment like Dr. Cornel West says. A failed one probably. Based on a step above slavery. It seems we need to get beyond a step above slavery BJ.

Who runs it? Almost exclusively Democrats.

They are part of the two faced scene of two rotted out parties. I have known that for a long time.


Bingo. Vote buying.

And Grover Norquist doesn't buy votes for the Republican sellout party? the Coca Cola brand is about no new taxes for the rich. Let the rich rock and roll. No, both suck. But the liberals got the narrative down better while the Republican old rich fucks keep trying to turn back the hands of time. And will lose their grip on the clock. Very soon.


For a country this size, it is good. It gives all areas of the country a stake in its governance--incorporated areas, that is, not Puerto Rico.

I got simple tastes. Just let the territories go with money for all the soldiers who lost their lives in those useless neoliberal wars and get the bank interest neoliberal gougers to pay back what they stole with the Jone Act and so on. And let bygones be bygones. And maybe there will be real progress and real respect. And this one way street shit might have served as a lesson as a way to understand that two separate rules is never a good idea eh? La Independencia. La solucion.

Well, it may be awhile since the richest people in America are primarily Democrats--or at least they purport to be.

Lol


Not much. I like the Carmina Burana, so I picked around with that a bit.

I am unconvinced you like other political histories. I doubt you seriously. You faker. Lol

I'm sure Julius Caesar, Augustus Caesar, Cicero, Crassus, Marcus Aurelius, Flavius Josephus, Livy and the lot are just devastated by this news.

Well haven't you seen those Anglo productions of Italian Roman emperors and etc? The British do love to think they invented Roman culture. They never did. Lol.

The racism of the Jim Crow South (created and controlled by Democrats).

You don't listen do you? Khan Academy video. It ain't the same party. Obama did not wear a Klan hood and his political enemies were not enamoured of wishy washy brand of liberalism. Ay BY. YOur entire issue is hinged on that distorted history sensor. I devastated your premise that the liberals were the racists and the Republicans are the nice guys? They suck. Both of them. Did you like how concise that was? Hee hee hee.


They were founded on the abolition of slavery. They passed the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments. They passed the Civil Rights Act of 1866. They sent troops to Little Rock, AR to desegregate the schools under Eisenhower. They wrote the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

And that is why the KKK and David Duke prefers them to the Democratic party today to join up? It doesn't compute darling. Get another theory.




He was Vice President in 1962.
Yes he was.


You gain a lot from capitalism. You wouldn't be conversing with me if it weren't for many devices created by capitalist enterprises.

Cotton was picked by slaves. Created a lot of revenue for the Southern states. You did not see Jeffrey Robinson's full explanation of the original video, did you? He breaks down how the South had prospered and once they had to pay the slaves and share the power they were pampered. I am not grateful to an inhumane system BJ. It has a terrible hold on my island. With John Oliver discussing how the debt happened and vulture funds and hedge funds going for blood there financially. It is about not having political power to even stop a bill in which was introduced with a clause or statute where Puerto Rico wasn't allowed to declare bankruptcy. All they knew was he was an old racist politician. Without a sound legal reason in the 1980s? Lol. No, BJ, i earned my place in American society. My grandparents worked in garment district factories and Manhattan restaurants for shit wages for decades until they retired. They were exploited. Thoroughly. Yet my granny wanted to go back to the island and forget about cold, gray urban New York. My mother left as well. They all were happier far from the American dream. Lol. That never came. They left their labor, sweat, and work and tax paying and gave up their ancestral lands to greedy American banks and big American corporations. One of millions. Who benefitted from who? It wasn't them. But it was the corporations who grew rich and fat. The workers like my grandparents had very little to show after 40 years of working six days a week from sunup to sunset and living in bad conditions and having racists throw bricks through their windows when they dared to move into a fairly white neighborhood. My grandmother could not understand it. She only rented the second floor to a black Puerto Rican couple. She thought if you buy a house with your sweatshop money wages and scrimping and saving that somehow the Americans would respect you for it. How foolish she was eh BJ? That shit only works for some and not for others Senor. No, BJ, I earned my spot in society. Nothing is free in capitalism. You might think it is something to be grateful for? That is like saying to a person.....you should be grateful for not having justice because it benefits someone else. Not you. Lol. Again, I can imagine a society that is much better than this one. Many can't. I do have a vivid imagination BJ. If you don't like it? Tell me so? I will do something about it eh? And just give you boring predictable things to read from me? ;)






As you may have guessed, I'm not interested in the current political vernacular, its goals, nor its taboos. So I have no problem talking about race, racism, etc.


Not really. I just see people having evolved just like other species, and I think it does play a role in human behavior. So I don't think it can be stamped out within humans. It can be policed against in larger social groups, but that's about it. Sure, I've read Jared Diamond, but he finished his most important work before the human genome was fully decoded, before it became clear that certain genes appear to have major influence on anti-social behavior, that Eurasians have a small percentage of Neanderthal DNA, but sub-Saharan Africans do not and so on. You, on the contrary, seem to have a very big problem even talking about it.


He's not really capable of extended discussions on ideas with people he disagrees with. He likes to name call and to troll people, and when he's trolled in return he flips out and gets @noemon to card people for the types of things he does himself. I don't care about the tattletale antics. As I've said, I think the carding punishments here are kind of comical. I just think if you dish it out, you ought to be able to take it. He can't take it. So he comes across as lame to me.


That's just someone who doesn't understand law reading all sorts of things into it that it doesn't say or mean. In my line of work, we're now having to remove terms like "master" and "slave" to be more "inclusive." We even have people who think that "blacklist" and "whitelist" are racist terms. My boss is Irish and lives in Ireland, as are many of my team mates. They are puzzled by the latter constructs, because "blacklist" was about identifying communists, labor organizers, etc. You don't need a list to identify who is black. It's readily apparent. Well... it's readily apparent to human beings right up until you hit the Millennial generation, when suddenly everyone got incredibly stupid. I want to remove "master", because it has conflicting uses. So in the context of high availability, I think we should use the term "primary". In the context of regulating behavior, I think we should use the term "controller" or "control plane." That anyone starts thinking about a 19th Century cotton planter relying on slave labor and feels uncomfortable working on the system is just patently ridiculous. People with that sort of emotional instability should just find themselves somewhere else. The SJWs are now going after builders to stop calling the homeowner's bedroom the "master" bedroom. I think if they are going to do this, then all colleges and universities should stop offering Masters degrees, because that's racist. I don't sweat this stuff, Tainari88. I roll with the punches. However, people who think this stuff is serious end up on a notional blacklist that identifies them as "idiots" whether they realize this or not.


He was one of VERY FEW segregationist Democrats that became a Republican.


Are you surprised to learn that he was an old school Democrat, and ran for president against Harry Truman on the Dixiecrat segregationist ticket protesting Truman's reversal of Woodrow Wilson's order segregating the military? Generally, when you find a devout racist like that, you're looking at a Democrat.


Ok. Let's be clear though. John Oliver himself doesn't know shit about the English common law and what distinguishes it from Roman law that governs much of Europe.


I'm just wondering whether you think the constitution really considered black people to be only 3/5ths of a human being or not. Of course they were considered chattel property. As I added, so were women and children.


Actually, the Republicans had been pushing it for over a century. The driving force wasn't blacks pressuring. It was white elites concerned that the communist party was infiltrating blacks to create a fifth column in the US. That's why they were cool with Martin Luther King, Jr. until he started talking about economics. He didn't get shot in 1963. He got shot in 1968.


By your definition of harm. I'm pretty sure communists would gladly avail themselves of all my property with attendant violent force.


That could be construed as inflexibility... :lol:


I just like that the people in Washington who don't like him have to kiss his ass. That's my revenge. It would be even funnier if Kanye West were president.


That's most people at that level of power. I don't need to like the people in power. I just need their policies to work for me.


You are dwelling on pointless stuff. What matters, unless you are in direct contact with these people, is policies. Biden may be a lot more folksy than Trump, but he literally wrote the legislation that put millions of people (mostly blacks) in prison. Trump may be crass, crude, irritating, maddening, and worse, but he literally turned that situation around. That's substance over style.


She immigrated legally. A lot of Mexicans have not. Legal migrants from Mexico have the same right to be in the United States as anyone else does.


I don't identify with Trump. I understand why he was elected, and why he stands a very good chance of being re-elected.


I will never be about social justice. Equality before the law isn't equality of result. You are about "From each according to their ability," which ultimately means you think you have the right to take from people the things they create for themselves. "To each according to their needs," throwing them a scrap back of what they produced. In that respect, communism sounds like the ultimate expression of capitalism, where the communists elites end up hoarding over a mass of wealth they seized from their most productive citizens, while leaving people with subsistence. I prefer prosperity, and I will not apologize for that.


Blackjack21. After reading these replies and the problems I am having with my computer I think I will just do a numbers count. 1), 2), etc.

I think this is the case of the total lack of understanding of someone else's life experiences, politics, etc. I don't expect you to understand me in a million years BJ. Why? Because what you value in life is different than what I value. That is the end of the story. I explained to you that as long as you are happy with your life choices then that is what you are about.

I find materialism and being into wealth only an empty existence. I always have since a young age. I could have dated the nephew of the mayor of San Juan who later became a senator and lived in 'prosperity'. I chose not to. My mother was offered countless bribes to change her tune. She did not. She preferred poverty, and political persecution over being wealthy and comfortable. I had never seen such hatred due to that in my life. Sellouts get mad as hell at people who choose that and don't sell out. I think it has to do with making them have to examine their conscience.

I will make it easy for you BJ. I have zero expectations that you will understand who I am. I really do. I just think you may not be happy with a lack of a strong relationship and love. You want kindness and love and connection.

It is none of my business BJ. I apologize if I have made you uncomfortable. That was not my intent.

I am not a fake socialist. I am a real one and serious about it. I don't live in contradiction. I never have. The traumas I have had in my life have been not seeing things in others who have a different mindset and assuming they have the same type of value system as I do. I am very aware now that most people are not people of principle and unworthy of trust. I still think human beings over generations can improve. But it takes enormous efforts.

So many people think others who have a bad start in life, can never be truly better. They are wrong. One must do the work to see the results. In all things. Those who marry for things other than absolute love and caring and wanting to be with that loved one forever. Made a bad mistake. If your reasons out there in being with someone is to take advantage of them in the process? Do yourself a favor and don't get involved.

You are kind of defensive BJ. Let me get to your points. I might run out of time.
Last edited by Tainari88 on 09 Jul 2020 23:58, edited 1 time in total.

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