The 8values Quiz - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15106235
Doug64 wrote:There’s no such thing as a Libertarian Socialist—the level of private freedom libertarians preach is incompatible with the loss of personal property rights and level of government control required for any Socialist system.


Well, libertarian socialists were actually the first to use the term, so I don't really get how you could say that they aren't libertarians.
By Doug64
#15106236
Local Localist wrote:Well, libertarian socialists were actually the first to use the term, so I don't really get how you could say that they aren't libertarians.

Because it makes as much sense as saying Capitalist Communists, the two philosophies simply aren't compatible.
#15106247
Libertarian socialism is older than, and more logical than, right wing economic libertarianism.

The Diggers (who were also radical Christians) were considered the first, even though their existence predates the term by about two centuries.

So, history shows us that libertarianism, socialism, and Christianity are all compatible.
By wat0n
#15106255
The very term "libertarian" has different meanings in Europe and America for starters. This is a semantics issue.

It would be good if Americans didn't change the meaning of political terms though.
User avatar
By ingliz
#15106282
Doug64 wrote:They do say that the Closest Match is a work in progress, though, what were your scores?

Image
#15106289
Impressive
By Doug64
#15106300
@ingliz Looking at your scores, I can see why Libertarian Communism was the closest match.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Libertarian socialism is older than, and more logical than, right wing economic libertarianism.

I’ve done some internet searching, and libertarian socialism looks like an incoherent mess, no more practical than the Russian Communists’ insistence that one day the State would just wither away into a workers’ paradise. Libertarianism is just a rebranding of Liberalism after the late 19th / early 20th century Progressives changed the meaning of the term (and the Russian revolution changed the meaning of Communism, now that I think about it). There’s good reason why another of the labels Libertarians like for themselves is Classical Liberal.
By Doug64
#15106336
Pants-of-dog wrote:@Doug64

Since it has actually happened in real life, it cannot be inherently impossible.

What country currently practices Libertarian Socialism?
By Doug64
#15106390
@Pants-of-dog So what you mean is that Libertarian Socialism was tried and failed.

As for Libertarianism as a whole never being tried, I’m not a Libertarian, though I used to be. But there are any number of aspects of Libertarianism that many agree with. If you oppose protectionism in foreign trade, you’re siding with Libertarians. If you believe that prostitution should be legal because women should determine what they do with their own bodies, you’re siding with Libertarians. If you believe that anyone that is willing to work hard or can independently support themselves should be permitted to immigrate to the US, you’re siding with Libertarians. If you believe that recreational marijuana use should be legal, you’re siding with Libertarians. If you oppose the Loot the Dead tax, you’re siding with Libertarians. I’m sure others can think of more.
#15106398
@Doug64

If you want to portray it as having worked and then later failed, feel free. It is still better than never having been tried.

And yes, right wing libertarianism adopted many tenets from original libertarianism. It is one reason why I consistently score higher on the libertarianism axis than almsot any self described libertarian on this forum. And?
By Doug64
#15106438
@Pants-of-dog So what’s the difference between “right wing” Libertarianism and “original” Libertarianism?
#15106473
@Doug64

The original use of the word as a political philosophy:


    The use of the term libertarian to describe a new set of political positions has been traced to the French cognate libertaire, coined in a letter French libertarian communist Joseph Déjacque wrote to mutualist Pierre-Joseph Proudhon in 1857.[36][37][38] Déjacque also used the term for his anarchist publication Le Libertaire, Journal du mouvement social (Libertarian: Journal of Social Movement) which was printed from 9 June 1858 to 4 February 1861 in New York City.[39][40] Sébastien Faure, another French libertarian communist, began publishing a new Le Libertaire in the mid-1890s while France's Third Republic enacted the so-called villainous laws (lois scélérates) which banned anarchist publications in France. Libertarianism has frequently been used to refer to anarchism and libertarian socialism since this time.[41][42][43]

And the US version which simply means a neoliberal:


    In the United States, libertarianism was popularized as a synonym for liberalism in May 1955 by writer Dean Russell, a colleague of Leonard Read and a classical liberal himself. Russell justified the choice of the term as follows:

    Many of us call ourselves "liberals." And it is true that the word "liberal" once described persons who respected the individual and feared the use of mass compulsions. But the leftists have now corrupted that once-proud term to identify themselves and their program of more government ownership of property and more controls over persons. As a result, those of us who believe in freedom must explain that when we call ourselves liberals, we mean liberals in the uncorrupted classical sense. At best, this is awkward and subject to misunderstanding. Here is a suggestion: Let those of us who love liberty trade-mark and reserve for our own use the good and honorable word "libertarian."[44][45][46]

    Subsequently, a growing number of Americans with classical liberal beliefs began to describe themselves as libertarians. One person responsible for popularizing the term libertarian in this sense was Murray Rothbard, who started publishing libertarian works in the 1960s.[47] Rothbard described this modern use of the words overtly as a "capture" from his enemies, writing that "for the first time in my memory, we, 'our side,' had captured a crucial word from the enemy. 'Libertarians' had long been simply a polite word for left-wing anarchists, that is for anti-private property anarchists, either of the communist or syndicalist variety. But now we had taken it over".[24][8]


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberta ... #Etymology

Also, this might be interesting for you:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

And...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diggers
User avatar
By Heisenberg
#15106517
Please don't tell me lolbertarianism is making a comeback. Leave that nonsense in 2012 with RON PAUL, where it belongs. The world has bigger problems to deal with than lowering the age of consent.

These are my results. Not sure about the label though.
Image
By Doug64
#15106519
@Pants-of-dog That’s all very interesting, but didn’t answer my question. So let me ask again, what’s the difference between “right wing” Libertarianism and “original” Libertarianism? A simple list of contrasting values would suffice, even just a handful.
#15106521
Economic Axis: Social

Equality 70.5%

Markets 29.5%

Diplomatic Axis: Balanced

Nation 43.3%

World 56.7%

Civil Axis: Statist

Liberty 26.2%

Authority 73.8%

Societal Axis: Traditional

Tradition 61.0%

Progress 39.0%

Closest Match: Theocratic Socialism

In other words I do not have a place in any political party or movement :lol:.
User avatar
By ingliz
#15106538
@Political Interest

Christian socialism is a religious and political philosophy that blends Christianity and socialism, endorsing left-wing economics on the basis of the Holy Bible and the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Many Christian socialists believe capitalism to be idolatrous and rooted in the sin of greed.

— Wikipedia

The Christian Socialist Party USA is a multi-denominational, multi-tendency organization encompassing Marxists, anarchists, democratic social....blah... blah... blah.


:)
User avatar
By Heisenberg
#15106565
Doug64 wrote:That’s all very interesting, but didn’t answer my question. So let me ask again, what’s the difference between “right wing” Libertarianism and “original” Libertarianism? A simple list of contrasting values would suffice, even just a handful.


The fundamental difference between the two is that the right-wing libertarian idea of "freedom" requires us to accept that (1) the economic system and the state are necessarily separate from one another, and even opposing forces, and (2) that all social relations in capitalism - particularly the employer/employee dynamic - are a meeting of equals. Both of these assumptions are demonstrably false, as the entire history of capitalism shows very clearly.

Left-libertarianism is based on the idea of abolishing all hierarchical and oppressive structures, and therefore seeks to abolish capitalism. In practice, left-libertarian movements - like the anarchists in Catalonia and Andalusia - have failed because they try to dismantle "the state" before anything else, and are therefore easily rolled over by more organised and powerful reactionary forces.

Put another way: "Original" libertarianism is a flawed, but internally consistent left-wing ideology based on abolishing oppression. Right-wing "libertarianism" a free market death cult that doesn't even make sense on its own terms.
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