[wat0n]

@wat0n

1. That was just a related fact, but it is not my argument. Since you have no rebuttal of my argument, I will move on.

You claimed African Americans are being incarcerated to provide free forcible Black labor and that there are incentives established to that effect. I'm still waiting for proof.

2. Yes, their own intelligence that they collected was wrong, and led to a situation where they were shooting blindly into a house of innocent people. The list of mistakes they made was very long.

No disagreement here.

3. Again, there was no crossfire. So that does not justify her death. The poor intelligence was their fault, and is compounded by the fact that they had arrested the actual suspect somewhere else that night. So that does not justify her death. What justifies her death?

So the cop who got shot doesn't exist or what?

[skinster]

The killing was the result of an unfortunate situation, namely, she died in the crossfire between the cops and her boyfriend's gunfire.

It was murder by cops who weren't even dressed as cops, who went into their place and shot them dead after her bf shot at what he thought were people breaking in (something easily accepted since they weren't dressed as cops and did break in). But yeah, "unfortunate situation". There's a lot of those, huh. And you'll defend all of them.

@skinster weird, I thought you are the one who is in the "believe the victims" team, at least when they are not Jewish. But even in this case, the victims are not seeking criminal charges.

No, you were the one who started the "believe victims" talk in the other thread about cancel culture, I never used those words at all. I'm not sure if it's intentional or that you forget what you say, but if it is, that's weird. I'm erring more on the side of you lacking the ability to maintain a consistent argument because you forget what you say, most likely because you're full of shit. Liars often get lost in their own bullshit and you've proven that again today.

[Pants-of-dog]

@wat0n

1. They are being incarcerated and forced to provide labour, and this disproportionately affects black people. The incentives to do this are financial since the prison system profits from said labour.

2. How does the shooting of the cop justify Breonna Taylor’s death?

[wat0n]

It was murder by cops who weren't even dressed as cops, who went into their place and shot them dead after her bf shot at what he thought were people breaking in (something easily accepted since they weren't dressed as cops). But yeah, "unfortunate situation". There's a lot of those, huh. And you'll defend all of them.

You quite obviously don't know what "murder" means, particularly since the cops didn't even know she was there. And yes, her boyfriend thought the cops were trespassers - I already said that.

No, you were the one who started the "believe victims" talk in the other thread about cancel culture, I never used those words at all. I'm not sure if it's intentional or that you forget what you say, but if it is, that's weird. I'm erring more on the side of you lacking the ability to maintain a consistent argument because you forget what you say, most likely because you're full of shit. Liars often get lost in their own bullshit and you've proven that again today.

Is that why you are unable to provide a cogent argument without using Twitter? That would make a lot of sense, since you lie about your own bigotry and also lie about the "believing the victims" crap.

1. They are being incarcerated and forced to provide labour, and this disproportionately affects black people. The incentives to do this are financial since the prison system profits from said labour.

The incentives you mention don't consider race, and in any event the prison system does not issue judicial rulings. So, where's your evidence of the vast conspiracy where judges consciously send specifically Black people to jail to have the prison system to profit from their labor?

2. How does the shooting of the cop justify Breonna Taylor’s death?

The cops simply returned fire.

[skinster]

You quite obviously don't know what "murder" means, particularly since the cops didn't even know she was there. And yes, her boyfriend thought the cops were trespassers - I already said that.

Ah, I guess it's not murder if the cops didn't know she was there. What?

Is that why you are unable to provide a cogent argument without using Twitter? That would make a lot of sense, since you lie about your own bigotry and also lie about the "believing the victims" crap.

Again, you started the "believing victims" talk. It's right there in the other thread. As I said, it's easy to get caught up in your own lies if you're a liar.

So, where's your evidence of the vast conspiracy where judges consciously send specifically Black people to jail to have the prison system to profit from their labor?

[wat0n]

Ah, I guess it's not murder if the cops didn't know she was there. What?

Exactly, you do realize murder requires intent right? It would at worst be manslaughter.

Again, you started the "believing victims" talk. It's right there in the other thread. As I said, it's easy to get caught up in your own lies if you're a liar.

It's not that complicated, I'm simply using your own logic against you. I don't find it surprising you don't get it since it is indeed illogical to do away with the presumption of innocence, but what gives? That's the route you chose - well, depending on the race of the alleged (or real) victim of racism at least.

[skinster]

Exactly, you do realize murder requires intent right?

Apparently that's a thing, but I'm not willing to give cops the benefit of the doubt here if it's something that keeps happening over and over again, Mr Believe Victims!

[wat0n]

Apparently that's a thing, but I'm not willing to give cops the benefit of the doubt here if it's something that keeps happening over and over again, Mr Believe Victims!

I can see you didn't address my other comment. Anyway, there's no intent if they didn't know she was there.

Do you have any other idiotic claims to make?

[skinster]

They didn't know what they were doing when shooting up the place. I mean, who could've thought someone might actually be killed....by...bullets? Duh! All the other times cops do this it's accidental too.

[Pants-of-dog]

@wat0n

1. I never made any claim about intent. In fact, I explicitly clarified that intent does not change my argument at all. That is the thing about systemic racism: the intent of individual actors does not matter.

2. Saying that the cops “simply returned fire” implies that the cops were shooting in a calm manner that targeted the threat. But, the cops were not shooting at the shooter. They were shooting at the house indiscriminately.

Is the argument that the cops were simply going to storm the house without any warning and if any resistance happened, the police would simply kill anyone who is in the house indiscriminately? It seems like you are arguing that that was the plan.

If that was the plan, can we agree that that is a particularly crappy plan?

[skinster]

[wat0n]

@wat0n

1. I never made any claim about intent. In fact, I explicitly clarified that intent does not change my argument at all. That is the thing about systemic racism: the intent of individual actors does not matter.

You claimed the incarceration system had been set up to extract Black labor. That requires intent. Disparate treatment in general also requires intent.

2. Saying that the cops “simply returned fire” implies that the cops were shooting in a calm manner that targeted the threat. But, the cops were not shooting at the shooter. They were shooting at the house indiscriminately.

Is the argument that the cops were simply going to storm the house without any warning and if any resistance happened, the police would simply kill anyone who is in the house indiscriminately? It seems like you are arguing that that was the plan.

If that was the plan, can we agree that that is a particularly crappy plan?

I ignore what their plan was, but I'm simply describing what happened. It was a crappy plan nonetheless since their intelligence was wrong.

My guess is that they didn't expect to find armed resistance. And for all we know, they may have only known he was inside the house.

[Drlee]

@wat0n I provided tax evasion as an example why policing is necessary: Tax dodgers need to be arrested and jailed to enforce tax law, a process that involves policing.

No. No. and No.

Tax evasion is done, for the most part, because it can be done. What this is, is a classic example of why bad laws make for bad policing.

Tax dodgers do not "need" to be arrested and jailed at all. It should be a civil case. They should have their assets confiscated to pay for their evasion. And, of course, at the end of a court proceeding to show they indeed cheated. Now we have the government not only out the tax money but also funding police, and paying for very expensive jails. Companies that cheat are simply confiscated, sold off...done and done.

We have tons of "crimes" like this. FGS we are jailing children because their parents overstayed their visa. WTF.

[skinster]

My guess is that they didn't expect to find armed resistance.

Kentucky is a stand your ground state. But perhaps the cops didn't know that when breaking into the place, not wearing their uniforms etc. :roll:

[wat0n]

No. No. and No.

Tax evasion is done, for the most part, because it can be done. What this is, is a classic example of why bad laws make for bad policing.

Tax dodgers do not "need" to be arrested and jailed at all. It should be a civil case. They should have their assets confiscated to pay for their evasion. And, of course, at the end of a court proceeding to show they indeed cheated. Now we have the government not only out the tax money but also funding police, and paying for very expensive jails. Companies that cheat are simply confiscated, sold off...done and done.

We have tons of "crimes" like this. FGS we are jailing children because their parents overstayed their visa. WTF.

The problem is that under Federal law tax evasion is a felony with up to 5 years in jail (plus a fine, on top being forced to return the money). How can you jail tax evaders if you don't arrest or threaten to arrest them?

And yes, tax evasion can be done because it can be done: Audits are a costly and drawn-out process, as such, there's probably plenty of tax dodgers who manage to go uncaught. But that's actually a stronger reason for a harsh penalty when tax dodgers are caught (also, what happens if they cannot repay the Government? What if someone evades taxes and spends or launders all the evaded tax payments, leaving much less or no money to return?)

Kentucky is a stand your ground state. But perhaps the cops didn't know that when breaking into the place, not wearing their uniforms etc.

Indeed, it is a stand your ground state (although the castle doctrine itself would be enough). Yet it seems the cops believed the house had two drug dealers (Jamarcus Glover and Adrian Walker) which is why they didn't knock - and also why this was an issue of wrong intelligence.

[skinster]

waton: believe victims, except those killed by cops.

[SpecialOlympian]

GET AVATARS YOU FUCKING WEIRDOS

THEY CONVEY YOUR IDEOLOGY AND HELP ESTABLISH A FORUMS POSTING IDENTITY[/size]

[Unthinking Majority]

There were 13 men shot. Not 14. There were 14 unarmed black people.

According to the database currently it's 14. They keep the database updated. Go clear your cookies and look for yourself.

Again, I cannot access the WP databse. Please present the evidence that 9 of these unarmed people were attacking the police.

I told you how to access the database. Go clear your cookies or use another browser with cleared cookies. Yet again you're not listening. If you have a problem with the data take it up with the WP or provide your own evidence. The data is correct unless you prove otherwise. You already posted a quote saying the WP database is the most complete database.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02601-9

So we see that prior to this year, there was no systematic data collection of police killings and/or shootings.

None of that has anything to do with what I asked or what you stated. We know the federal records are incomplete, hence why the WP database exists.

You said: "Again, there is no way of knowing the number since the police do not keep track."

Just because the the federal government doesn't keep reliable records doesn't mean local departments don't keep track. Can you prove departments don't keep track? The WP data comes from department records among many other sources.

So you have no idea if Mr. Graves had a weapon. I guess you are defining “unarmed” as “visibly and obviously not having anything at all in their hands or reaching for anything at all at any time during the process, even if the object may or may not be a weapon”.

He probably had a can of some beverage in his hand.

Is Elijah McClain considered to be “armed” because he supposedly reached for a gun, or does he count as one of the nine who “attacked” the police? Or is he one of the two who were shot by white police while neither armed nor attacking?

I assume that Atatiana Jefferson is one of the two unarmed people who was not attacking when shot to death by a white cop.

I have no idea about any of this, I'm not the one categorizing things in the WP database. if you have a problem with the database, take it up with them. Until then, it remains the most accurate database available and the statistics stand. There's no point in debating this any further. I provided the stats, but they don't fit your preferred narrative so you don't like them and are doing everything you can to try and discredit them to no avail.

So the numbers you provided are inaccurate.

No, they only track what they say they track: police shootings in the line of duty where the victim is killed. An off-duty police officer has zero police authority or special powers, they're just a civilian like you and I and subject to the exact same laws.

[Drlee]

People without avatars are all homosexuals.

Not that there is anything wrong with that.

[Pants-of-dog]

@wat0n

1. I never made any claim about intent. In fact, I explicitly clarified that intent does not change my argument at all. That is the thing about systemic racism: the intent of individual actors does not matter.

2. Again, they already knew the suspect was NOT inside the house (or should have known) since he was arrested that same night somehwere else. So the plan, and the information, were all crappy. The mistakes were all made by the police, and those mistakes led to Breonna Taylor’s death. How is this not a crime?

—————————

@Unthinking Majority

If you are simply repeating the WP figures, then what is your argument? That WP has a misleading database?