Old School Left Calls For End To Cancel Culture Of The New McCarthyist Left - Page 6 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15107528
Unthinking Majority wrote:I'm responding to claims that Palestinians aren't at all racist, which is dumbest shit i've ever heard on these boards. Hitler is laughing.


It's you that's dumb though. You responded to me saying:

"He (Salaita) didn't say anything about anyone dying or anything antisemitic, because people who defend Palestine are not the racists; their defence for Palestinians is the anti-racist position because Zionism is the racist position."

The fact is the position for Palestine is the position against racism. Israel systematically oppresses Palestinians based, denying them basic civil rights, imposing a system of apartheid(racism/segregation/whatever) and imprisoning 2 million of them who have 0 rights. The ideology behind this oppression is called Zionism. Zionism is racism. The Israelis are the oppressors and the Palestinians are the oppressed.

The real cancelling that's going on is against defenders of Palestinian rights. That's the actual story. Like the professors who lost their jobs for criticizing Israel. Like that against Bernie Sanders and Jeremy Corbyn for accepting Palestinians are humans too. None of the signatories of the letter in the OP fell victim to any cancellation, they've all got huge platforms.
Last edited by skinster on 15 Jul 2020 01:45, edited 1 time in total.
#15107529
ckaihatsu wrote:Let's call it 'amplification of the oppressed voice'. Let your logistical imagination run wild.


Call it however you want, that doesn't quite change that people need not agree on who the victims are.

ckaihatsu wrote:Based on that previously cited *body count*, who do you think the victims are?


Both sides can say to be victims, since plenty of civilians from both sides have been killed.
#15107532
wat0n wrote:
Call it however you want, that doesn't quite change that people need not agree on who the victims are.



Both sides can say to be victims, since plenty of civilians from both sides have been killed.



Okay, I'm going to *up the stakes* a little here:



Israel currently has 163 Jewish-only settlements and
98 "outposts" built on confiscated Palestinian land.

Palestinians do not have any
settlements on Israeli land.



https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/settlements.html



Now who's the victim?
#15107533
^ Ha, waton indulging in postmodernist bullshit while claiming to be against it a few posts ago. It's an objective fact who the victims are and who the oppressors are re: Israel and Palestine, not who you and I think are the victims based on our feelings.

wat0n wrote:I think your reaction speaks for itself.


I don't know what my reaction is. How did you push back on my logic?

Have you read her letter?


Yes. Did you? She quit her job.

Cancellers also claim that those who were cancelled are racists, fascists, etc.


Who are these cancellers and who did they cancel?

Why should their claims be taken at face value but not those by those who wanted to fire Salaita or Finkelstein?


Which claims?

It's obvious in the case of the two professors that they weren't fired for any racism. You kept accusing them of that but are yet to prove any racism on their part.

Others have also lost their careers as a result of the cancel culture, just see the case of the UMass Nursing Dean who got fired I mentioned above.


What was the dean fired for? And how is a university's action the responsibility of mine or ckaihatsu? You might have a point if we supported this. But that didn't happen either.

Finkelstein and Salaita also managed to find new jobs, and got compensated by their old employers. I wonder if Bari Weiss will able to be compensated by the NYT.


They both lost their professional careers which caused both much distress. They've both wrote about it. Salaita is a bus-driver for school-kids today.

Bari Weiss will still get work in journalism, if that's what you want to call what she does. Also, why do you think she should be compensated? She quit her job, she wasn't fired. :eh:
#15107535
ckaihatsu wrote:Okay, I'm going to *up the stakes* a little here:

Now who's the victim?


Doesn't change my opinion. We can also compare the percentage of civilians killed by each side, and we can afterwards see who's targeting civilians. But I don't find it surprising that, as usual, Jewish lives don't matter for the usual suspects (although Israeli Arab lives do for some reason).

Do you have any more points to make?

skinster wrote:I don't know what my reaction is. How did you push back on my logic?


Why don't you read your own posts throughout the forum? You even whined in other threads :lol:

skinster wrote:Yes. Did you? She quit her job.


After being harassed by her workmates, if we go by her claims.

skinster wrote:Who are these cancellers and who did they cancel?


We already went through this.

skinster wrote:Which claims?

It's obvious in the case of the two professors that they weren't fired for any racism. You kept accusing them of that but are yet to prove any racism on their part.


Their victims disagree. Again, it seems this logic only applies depending on race.

skinster wrote:What was the dean fired for? And how is a university's action the responsibility of mine or ckaihatsu? You might have a point if we supported this. But that didn't happen either.


Did I blame you for it? No. And you are free to read the source I posted above. I know reading more than 200 characters is hard for you, but you'll have to learn how to some day.

skinster wrote:They both lost their professional careers which caused both much distress. They've both wrote about it. Salaita is a bus-driver for school-kids today.

Bari Weiss will still get work in journalism, if that's what you want to call what she does. Also, why do you think she should be compensated? She quit her job, she wasn't fired. :eh:


She quit after being systematically harassed with no reaction by her employer. That sounds like it caused her much distress too, hence the letter she wrote and her resignation. It also happens to be illegal to disregard an employee's claims of harassment (something you should be aware of if you lived in the US - unless you were living off somebody else), so I'm guessing she'll sue.

Also, Salaita worked in the American University in Lebanon after his firing, so that's not actually accurate.
#15107539
skinster wrote:It's you that's dumb though. You responded to me saying:

"He (Salaita) didn't say anything about anyone dying or anything antisemitic, because people who defend Palestine are not the racists; their defence for Palestinians is the anti-racist position because Zionism is the racist position."

I never said that, you did i think.

The fact is the position for Palestine is the position against racism. Israel systematically oppresses Palestinians based, denying them basic civil rights, imposing a system of apartheid(racism/segregation/whatever) and imprisoning 2 million of them who have 0 rights. The ideology behind this oppression is called Zionism. Zionism is racism. The Israelis are the oppressors and the Palestinians are the oppressed.

Israel has done lots of bad shit and Palestinians have been victimized, but you realize that Israel and Zionism exists because Europeans killed 6 million Jews trying to exterminate their entire race right? They both have lots of victimhood.


The real cancelling that's going on is against defenders of Palestinian rights. That's the actual story. Like the professors who lost their jobs for criticizing Israel. Like that against Bernie Sanders and Jeremy Corbyn for accepting Palestinians are humans too. None of the signatories of the letter in the OP fell victim to any cancellation, they've all got huge platforms.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with criticism against Israel. But don't wish death on Jews and don't tweet antisemitic BS. If you're being hired as an academic, then behave like one.
#15107540
ckaihatsu wrote:Okay, I'm going to *up the stakes* a little here:

Now who's the victim?

Europeans treated Jews in Europe like racist crap and then systematically murdered 6 million of them in order to destroy their race from the face of the planet. 3 years later Israel was created. They're kinda victims too dude.

They're both victims. FFS. The "i'm a victim, you're not a victim" bullshit is the reason why this conflict has continued for 100 years. These are just narratives. This is what peace actually looks like:

https://vispo.com/PRIME/leohn.htm
#15107542
wat0n wrote:Why don't you read your own posts throughout the forum? You even whined in other threads :lol:


You're doing that thing again. Claiming X and when asked to explain or prove it, doing the above. If you can't answer simple things, perhaps you should stop making shit up.

After being harassed by her workmates, if we go by her claims.


She quit her jobs because some of her colleagues thought she was too extreme and too much of a neocon for the NYT. :lol: But that didn't lose her her job. And then she quit. This is in no way comparable to what happened to Salaita or Finkelstein, both were fired and lost their careers and what I was responding to initially, about you stating Bari Weiss got a taste of her own medicine, the fact is she didn't, because she quit her job.

We already went through this.


No, we didn't. This is you again not backing up what you originally claim. Do you just need someone to chat to today? If you want, we can PM so we don't bore the fuck out of everyone else here, since all you're doing is dancing around like an attention whore, making claims and then not backing them up and deflecting to other things as if people can't read and see what you're doing.

Their victims disagree. Again, it seems this logic only applies depending on race.


The victims of the professors don't exist. This is something else you keep saying is a thing but when asked, who are they, you start talking some other shite.

Ant the logic doesn't apply dependent on race. Here you're trying to state those of us who oppose Zionism are the racists, when that's a lie, which is why you use vague language. I can read you like a book, Lynn, and not a very good one.

Did I blame you for it? No. And you are free to read the source I posted above. I know reading more than 200 characters is hard for you, but you'll have to learn how to some day.


Holy shit. :lol:

I wonder if you're drunk, mildly retarded or extremely bored. It's difficult to watch this dancing around you're doing.

She quit after being systematically harassed with no reaction by her employer.


She wasn't systematically harassed at all, unless some of her colleagues disliking her = systematically oppressed. :lol:

And she quit because NYT isn't as neocon as she would like.

:lol: :lol: :lol: that you think Bari Weiss is a victim here.

Yes, Salaita worked briefly in Lebanon. But his career is destroyed at home, where he lives, and is now a bus driver. Bari Weiss quitting her job is in no way comparable, my guess is she already got a gig elsewhere, which is why she made the dramatic exit, crying because some people think she has odious politics.

I mean, FREE BARI WEISS. :lol:

She's the real victim.
https://theintercept.com/2018/03/08/the ... ze-israel/
Last edited by skinster on 15 Jul 2020 02:24, edited 1 time in total.
#15107543
wat0n wrote:
Doesn't change my opinion. We can also compare the percentage of civilians killed by each side, and we can afterwards see who's targeting civilians. But I don't find it surprising that, as usual, Jewish lives don't matter for the usual suspects (although Israeli Arab lives do for some reason).



I'm not *trying* change your opinion. I don't give a *shit* about your opinion.

What I *am* hoping to do is to have you simply *acknowledge reality*.

Would you say, based on this empirical evidence, that there is an overall *power relation* at work here, between Israelis and Palestinians? (That one of the two has more *coercive power* than the other?)


wat0n wrote:
Do you have any more points to make?



(See the previous segment.)


Unthinking Majority wrote:
Israel has done lots of bad shit and Palestinians have been victimized, but you realize that Israel and Zionism exists because Europeans killed 6 million Jews trying to exterminate their entire race right? They both have lots of victimhood.



No, Israel exists because of Britain and the Balfour Declaration.

Why didn't the Allies do anything about all of the Nazi rail lines to the ovens that they saw in their air reconnaissance photos, *before* the Holocaust started?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_bombing_debate


Unthinking Majority wrote:
There's absolutely nothing wrong with criticism against Israel. But don't wish death on Jews and don't tweet antisemitic BS. If you're being hired as an academic, then behave like one.



Why have you decided to select *this* one particular issue to politicize?

You're indicting on the basis of 'bad vibes' and virtually *apologizing for* the firings of Salaita and Finkelstein, when the *real violence* comes from Israel and all of its international backers.

Wouldn't you rather tackle the *institutional* violence and killings of Zionism itself, rather than the supposed 'ethics' of political speech from one or two academics?
Last edited by ckaihatsu on 15 Jul 2020 02:26, edited 1 time in total.
#15107544
Unthinking Majority wrote:Israel has done lots of bad shit and Palestinians have been victimized, but you realize that Israel and Zionism exists because Europeans killed 6 million Jews trying to exterminate their entire race right? They both have lots of victimhood.


Israel and Zionism don't exist because of European racism (that Palestinians were not responsible for). Zionist terror gangs invaded Palestinian in the 1920s. The Zionist movement began in the 1880s. One group out of these two today are the oppressor and one are victims of that oppression and any violence from the oppressed against their oppressors is not terrorism, but resistance. The victimhood between the two groups is not on par in the slightest.

But don't wish death on Jews and don't tweet antisemitic BS.


This didn't happen. Salaita is not a racist and neither you or waton have been able to prove he is, 6 pages into this debate. You should go back to university and learn the reality of the situation, there's a lot of student orgs that support Palestine and speak honestly about the so-called conflict, including Jewish organisations.
#15107545
skinster wrote:You're doing that thing again. Claiming X and when asked to explain or prove it, doing the above. If you can't answer simple things, perhaps you should stop making shit up.


It's as simple as checking your posts today in those other threads :lol:

skinster wrote:She quit her jobs because some of her colleagues thought she was too extreme and too much of a neocon for the NYT. :lol: But that didn't lose her her job. And then she quit. This is in no way comparable to what happened to Salaita or Finkelstein, both were fired and lost their careers and what I was responding to initially, about you stating Bari Weiss got a taste of her own medicine, the fact is she didn't, because she quit her job.


She quit, according to her letter, because of harassment:

Bari Weiss wrote:...

But the lessons that ought to have followed the election—lessons about the importance of understanding other Americans, the necessity of resisting tribalism, and the centrality of the free exchange of ideas to a democratic society—have not been learned. Instead, a new consensus has emerged in the press, but perhaps especially at this paper: that truth isn’t a process of collective discovery, but an orthodoxy already known to an enlightened few whose job is to inform everyone else.

Twitter is not on the masthead of The New York Times. But Twitter has become its ultimate editor. As the ethics and mores of that platform have become those of the paper, the paper itself has increasingly become a kind of performance space. Stories are chosen and told in a way to satisfy the narrowest of audiences, rather than to allow a curious public to read about the world and then draw their own conclusions. I was always taught that journalists were charged with writing the first rough draft of history. Now, history itself is one more ephemeral thing molded to fit the needs of a predetermined narrative.

My own forays into Wrongthink have made me the subject of constant bullying by colleagues who disagree with my views. They have called me a Nazi and a racist; I have learned to brush off comments about how I’m “writing about the Jews again.” Several colleagues perceived to be friendly with me were badgered by coworkers. My work and my character are openly demeaned on company-wide Slack channels where masthead editors regularly weigh in. There, some coworkers insist I need to be rooted out if this company is to be a truly “inclusive” one, while others post ax emojis next to my name. Still other New York Times employees publicly smear me as a liar and a bigot on Twitter with no fear that harassing me will be met with appropriate action. They never are.

There are terms for all of this: unlawful discrimination, hostile work environment, and constructive discharge. I’m no legal expert. But I know that this is wrong.

...


skinster wrote:No, we didn't. This is you again not backing up what you originally claim. Do you just need someone to chat to today? If you want, we can PM so we don't bore the fuck out of everyone else here, since all you're doing is dancing around like an attention whore, making claims and then not backing them up and deflecting to other things as if people can't read and see what you're doing.


It's as simple as going through the links I posted once again. Just because you don't like it, just like you don't like many things, it doesn't mean they didn't happen.

skinster wrote:The victims of the professors don't exist. This is something else you keep saying is a thing but when asked, who are they, you start talking some other shite.

Ant the logic doesn't apply dependent on race. Here you're trying to state those of us who oppose Zionism are the racists, when that's a lie, which is why you use vague language. I can read you like a book, Lynn, and not a very good one.


Merely being offended is enough of a reason for cancellers to claim victimhood. And only the victims decide they are victims - we know the drill already, but you don't like it when applied against your buddies.

skinster wrote:Holy shit. :lol:

I wonder if you're drunk, mildly retarded or extremely bored. It's difficult to watch this dancing around you're doing.


:roll:

Here, let me share the link again:

https://reason.com/2020/07/02/universit ... e-matters/

skinster wrote:She wasn't systematically harassed at all, unless some of her colleagues disliking her = systematically oppressed. :lol:

And she quit because NYT isn't as neocon as she would like.

:lol: :lol: :lol: that you think Bari Weiss is a victim here.

Yes, Salaita worked briefly in Lebanon. But his career is destroyed at home, where he lives, and is now a bus driver. Bari Weiss quitting her job is in no way comparable, my guess is she already got a gig elsewhere, which is why she made the dramatic exit, crying because some people think she has odious politics.

I mean, FREE BARI WEISS. :lol:


Again, victims are not to be believed if they are of the wrong kind. So damn predictable :lol:

ckaihatsu wrote:I'm not *trying* change your opinion. I don't give a *shit* about your opinion.

What I *am* hoping to do is to have you simply *acknowledge reality*.

Would you say, based on this empirical evidence, that there is an overall *power relation* at work here, between Israelis and Palestinians? (That one of the two has more *coercive power* than the other?)


Being weak doesn't necessarily make you a victim, much to your chagrin.

And indeed as a revolutionary you are presumably aware that counter-revolutionaries are obviously meant to be weaker than the Revolution and at least suppressed, if not physically destroyed, for it to succeed. Would you say counter-revolutionaries can claim victimhood when they start being killed?
#15107547
wat0n wrote:
Here, let me share the link again:

https://reason.com/2020/07/02/universit ... e-matters/


Again, what does this have to do with me or ckaihatsu? Neither of us supported this or are arguing for it and you've been crying about it as if we did.

:lol: at the other stuff where Bari Weiss is a victim according to you, and her.


#15107548
ckaihatsu wrote:Why have you decided to select *this* one particular issue to politicize?

Because the topic was brought up in a tweet.

You're indicting on the basis of 'bad vibes' and virtually *apologizing for* the firings of Salaita and Finkelstein, when the *real violence* comes from Israel and all of its international backers.

Wouldn't you rather tackle the *institutional* violence and killings of Zionism itself, rather than the supposed 'ethics' of political speech from one or two academics?

All injustice needs to be fought. All of it. You don't pick and choose based on who you feel sorry for the most. 2 wrongs don't make a right. Israeli settlements are wrong. Supporting them is wrong. So is wishing death on all Jews who live in the settlements.
#15107550
Unthinking Majority wrote: Israeli settlements are wrong. Supporting them is wrong. So is wishing death on all Jews who live in the settlements.


Settlement building that includes much violence and ethnic cleansing of the natives is the same as wishing death on a group of people that nobody here did, nor did Salaita or Finkelstein.

See, both sides! Exactly the same! Also, I'm opposed to cancel culture!

:lol:
#15107551
skinster wrote:Again, what does this have to do with me or ckaihatsu? Neither of us supported this or are arguing for it and you've been crying about it as if we did.


The only thing I'm saying is that she hasn't been compensated for the firing, Finkelstein and Salaita were. I'm guessing her career may as well be over since students in other universities may complain if she were hired.

skinster wrote: :lol: at the other stuff where Bari Weiss is a victim according to you, and her.




She is the one claiming victimhood, of course those she's been lashing out against will say otherwise - as it usually happens, although it's funny to see canceller snowflakes not believing the alleged victim this time around :lol:

This will likely be solved through lawsuits, if people were disparaging her over Slack then the logs of those chats should exist. It should not be hard to see who's right here. And it will be fun too, because who knows what we'll find?

I personally don't take a side, don't feel any particular attachment to either side and don't know who's right. But I will pick my pop corn up.
Last edited by wat0n on 15 Jul 2020 02:43, edited 1 time in total.
#15107552
Unthinking Majority wrote:
Europeans treated Jews in Europe like racist crap and then systematically murdered 6 million of them in order to destroy their race from the face of the planet. 3 years later Israel was created. They're kinda victims too dude.



So what does this victim status, from the Holocaust, *entitle* Jews, and the descendants of these victimized Jews, to? Do they get to victimize Palestinians as a result?


Unthinking Majority wrote:
They're both victims. FFS. The "i'm a victim, you're not a victim" bullshit is the reason why this conflict has continued for 100 years. These are just narratives. This is what peace actually looks like:

https://vispo.com/PRIME/leohn.htm



You're *dismissive* of the reality of Palestinian oppression, by saying that the histories are 'just narratives', as though the *recounting* of oppression is somehow 'just fiction', or fictional storytelling, instead of being about real-world histories of oppression.

And how can there be 'peace' in civil society, as in a school's lesson plans, when there's no actual peace in that civil society, because of Israel's repression of the Palestinians?


---


ckaihatsu wrote:
Would you say, based on this empirical evidence, that there is an overall *power relation* at work here, between Israelis and Palestinians? (That one of the two has more *coercive power* than the other?)



wat0n wrote:
Being weak doesn't necessarily make you a victim, much to your chagrin.



Okay, away from your bullshit abstract moralizing, and back to the real-world, is there a *power relation* between Israel and the Palestinians?


wat0n wrote:
And indeed as a revolutionary you are presumably aware that counter-revolutionaries are obviously meant to be weaker than the Revolution and at least suppressed, if not physically destroyed, for it to succeed. Would you say counter-revolutionaries can claim victimhood when they start being killed?



Who would counterrevolutionaries even claim victimhood *to*?


x D
#15107553
ckaihatsu wrote:Okay, away from your bullshit abstract moralizing, and back to the real-world, is there a *power relation* between Israel and the Palestinians?


You've been moralizing for a while now, seemingly believing weakness somehow gives you morality. It doesn't, not by itself.

Israel is militarily stronger than the Palestinians, but it doesn't hold all the cards in their relationship, or else this conflict would have ended already.

ckaihatsu wrote:Who would counterrevolutionaries even claim victimhood *to*?


x D


Each other, fence-sitters.
#15107556
Unthinking Majority wrote:
Because the topic was brought up in a tweet.


All injustice needs to be fought. All of it. You don't pick and choose based on who you feel sorry for the most. 2 wrongs don't make a right. Israeli settlements are wrong. Supporting them is wrong. So is wishing death on all Jews who live in the settlements.



Okay, if Israeli settlements are unjust / wrong, and casual opinionating is 'wrong' as well, and your favored nation-state didn't have enough resources to address *both* situations immediately and fully, then how would you *prioritize* these two situations?

Maybe, should the prioritization (of urgency) be done on the basis of which action actually created *victims*, as Skinster mentioned -- ?
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