End of maduro - hopefully. - Page 64 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15107354
Your boring life story has nothing to do with Venezuela. But now that you keep talking about your family, it's a shame they didn't starve to death by sanctions the likes of which people like you support, because then that'd mean you wouldn't exist and life would be slightly less boring. :D
#15107356
skinster wrote:Your boring life story has nothing to do with Venezuela. But now that you keep talking about your family, it's a shame they didn't starve to death by sanctions the likes of which people like you support, because then that'd mean you wouldn't exist and life would be slightly less boring. :D


We did starve at the end of the Soviet Union and after gaining independance. It was actually the aid from America that saved a lot of people. In the end we just got through it and fixed the economic problems not to starve again.
#15107363
skinster wrote:OK dude who starved and then not-starved, cool story. :D



Your trying to spin everything as if it is the fault of imperialism. Soviet Union tried the same by the way. The narrative is not exactly new. We didn't starve because of imperealism, we starved because the SU system couldn't produce enough food and distribute it. There is obviously enough fertile land in both ex-USSR and in Venezuela for that. The problem is the system itself. At some point you have to admit this. Also this begs a question, why support a system that can't feed its own people?
#15107592
JohnRawls wrote:At some point you have to admit this. Also this begs a question, why support a system that can't feed its own people?


My questions would be:
1. Why support a System that cannot defend itself from Imperialism?
2. Why support a System that is inferior to Western Imperialism?
3. Why support a race who refuse to maintain a good, open and fair system?
#15107612
Patrickov wrote:My questions would be:
1. Why support a System that cannot defend itself from Imperialism?
2. Why support a System that is inferior to Western Imperialism?
3. Why support a race who refuse to maintain a good, open and fair system?


I think that defending yourself from imperealism can be difficult because of sheer sizes of countries. It doesn't necessarily mean that the system itself is bad. It might be that you are just a small country so that is not a valid question.

Regarding 2: It depends on what you think as inferior. If you look at HK as an example, sure, British imperealism did a lot of good on top of some bad overall. But it doesn't mean that Western Imperealism can't be as bad or even worse than Venezuela today. There are pretty horrible examples from the 19th century about this. So it heavily depends on how this Western Imperealism manifests itself. If it manifests itself as a HK model of sorts then you are right but if it manifests as Belgian Congo than fuck it. Not that i consider Guiado a Western imperialist though. He can be described like that in a very loose sense because he is asking help from outside of the country to combat Maduro.

Regarding 3: On paper Venezuelan system is that. But just on paper. For example Russia also has a constitution, seperation of power, free speech, rule of law etc. But once again, just on paper. The implementation itself is as important as what you write on the paper. If Venezuela actually did live up to its values that are on paper there then I wouldn't see any problems with it. The problem is that it doesn't.
#15107701
JohnRawls wrote:It depends on what you think as inferior. If you look at HK as an example, sure, British imperealism did a lot of good on top of some bad overall. But it doesn't mean that Western Imperealism can't be as bad or even worse than Venezuela today. There are pretty horrible examples from the 19th century about this. So it heavily depends on how this Western Imperealism manifests itself. If it manifests itself as a HK model of sorts then you are right but if it manifests as Belgian Congo than fuck it.

Not that i consider Guiado a Western imperialist though. He can be described like that in a very loose sense because he is asking help from outside of the country to combat Maduro.


Congo Free State was an exception and was itself under immense pressure that Belgian government had to take it from their ignorant and negligent king. If what's reported in Wikipedia was true, Belgian Congo also had significant achievement during their last years.

As for Venezuela, IMHO anyone achieving a certain level in politics will have to compromise a lot, so I won't say Guiado is a purely positive figure. Conversely, it is absurd for us to expect politicians, and leaders in particular, to be dirt free. To me, it's how much of the end can be achieved that the means can be justified.

The biggest mistake of the West in both Syria and Venezuela was that they allowed the situation to drag on too long -- people lose confidence easily when they suffer failures. Conversely the anti-tyranny forces had greater success in North Africa (even Libya, yes)


JohnRawls wrote:On paper Venezuelan system is that. But just on paper. For example Russia also has a constitution, seperation of power, free speech, rule of law etc. But once again, just on paper. The implementation itself is as important as what you write on the paper. If Venezuela actually did live up to its values that are on paper there then I wouldn't see any problems with it. The problem is that it doesn't.


The implementation is exactly what I mean by "maintain". For various reasons, some ethnic groups seem stronger than the others in the implementation.
#15108629
To JohnRawls, a former member of the privileged class in the USSR, skinster wrote:This thread is about Venezuela, not your boring family.

Well, it IS sort of about all the boring families who only think about themselves, living in some kind of social bubble of nepotism and lack-of-empathy for anyone outside the four walls of the family compound.

This kind of exclusionary family mafia is modeled on the elite and their mafia structure, and became "the model" of society after WW2 because... it sold a lot of cars and suburban land. But is was and still is, a social disaster. Being confined with your plastic family who judge everyone else as "losers" is very similar to racism.

These kinds of isolated family cells, provide us with third world elite vassals, AND with North American working classes who identify with Dynasty and the monarchs of olde. Both of these "boring family" classes will work diligently to destroy any kind of community endeavor where their own boring family doesn't come out ahead of "the losers and bums" they see outside their shuttered windows.
#15110275
I found this paper to be quite interesting:

Absher, Grier & Grier (2020) wrote:Abstract

We study the economic effects of durable left-populist leaders in Latin America. Using synthetic control to create a credible counterfactual for four such regimes, we find that they have, on average, a negative, significant, and sizeable average effect on income. Specifically, these countries at the end of their treatment periods end up over 20% poorer on average than what the average of their synthetic counterfactuals predict. We find negative and significant single country effects on real per-capita GDP in Venezuela, Nicaragua, and Bolivia. Only in Ecuador does GDP keep up with its synthetic counterfactual. We investigate whether there is a trade-off, where national income was sacrificed to improve inequality or health. We find no significant average counter-veiling trade-off in decreased levels of income inequality or infant mortality relative to what the average synthetic predicts.


In a typical nerd fashion, I'm going to try to see if the result holds using a different dataset :)
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