African-American Asphyxiated by Police in Minneapolis - Page 167 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15107765
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

1. In this case, systemic racism is a good phrase to describe how a whole system of policies(i.e. the war in drugs, the three strikes policy, bias in policing, minimum mandatory sentencing, private prisons, et cetera) has had a disproportionate impact on people of colour, specifically black people. You are not denying or refuting any of this. Instead, you are arguing over whether this problem fits some definition. Feel free to use some other phrase for a system of government policies that have a racist impact.


And this is precisely why our discussion on how we define systemic racism is so important. The definition, as the one I cited earlier ("The collective failure of an organization to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their colour, culture, or ethnic origin. It can be seen or detected in processes, attitudes and behaviour that amount to discrimination through prejudice, ignorance, thoughtlessness and racist stereotyping which disadvantage minority ethnic people."), implies disparate treatment. What you describe is something like disparate impact, although disparate impact is still more restricted than that since mere differences by race are not evidence of disparate impact either. But hey if you want to follow a different definition then don't be surprised to find pushback.

Pants-of-dog wrote:2. So this is another example of an unjustifiable killing by police where everyone gets to walk free because it was perfectly legal.

So, we have at least two examples of unjustifiable yet perfectly legal killings of innocent black people who were not doing anything threatening: Elijah McClain and Breonna Taylor. If the system keeps creating situations where innocent people are being killed perfectly legally, then the system itself is wrong.


Both are still being investigated, but the case of Breonna Taylor seems less likely to involve criminal responsibility since it's far from clear to me up to what extent the cops could have avoided it while being under fire. Intelligence mistakes also don't seem to be a crime.
#15107772
Honestly I hate the fact Floyd is being treated like a saint or Heaven forbid the next Malcolm/Martian or even Jesus cause he die a bad way. Like God damn N**** had three funerals in live prime time tv, a fucking holiday in Huston and a school and all other freebie shit while Breonna Taylor (a actual essential worker with no criminal record) and Ahmaud Arbery who got shot by actual white supremacists gets in the back of the burner and almost forgotten. I swear we martyr people who didn't shit for our race and don't deserve it. The man was a nobody and countless people die in worse ways by cops before, I guess if it wasn't him it'll be someone else, I'm just mad they made this guy special.
#15107776
@wat0n

1. No, semantics discussions about whether or not a word fits are not nearly as important as the fact that a disproportionately large number of black people are in jail right now providing forced labour. And that is due to a system of policies that are part of US laws.

2. Your repeated explanations of how the system has found these horrendous killings to be perfectly acceptable is noted and provides examples of how the system uses accepted law to allow these killers to go free.
#15107778
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

1. No, semantics discussions about whether or not a word fits are not nearly as important as the fact that a disproportionately large number of black people are in jail right now providing forced labour. And that is due to a system of policies that are part of US laws.


It is important because it allows one to verbalize the causes, a necessary condition to find solutions. What I think is that the underlying cause ultimately has to do with socioeconomic factors rather than anything else.

Pants-of-dog wrote:2. Your repeated explanations of how the system has found these horrendous killings to be perfectly acceptable is noted and provides examples of how the system uses accepted law to allow these killers to go free.


Accepted? So if the very system awards a civil remedy, rather than jail, means that these actions are somehow being accepted by the legal system?
#15107784
@wat0n

1. I have no idea how a discussion about word definitions will help solve the massive incarceration problem facing black US citizens today, but feel free to explain.

I think a historical approach showing how these policies came about as a continuation of Jim Crow laws and slavery laws (which also served a similar financial purpose, and “so targeted black people) helps understand how these problems came to be, and why we need to address the systemic racism in police and penitentiaries.

2. Exactly. If the civil court system has to be used in cases of criminal conduct like this, that means the criminal court system failed. Is the criminal law and order system holding anyone accountable for Breonna Taylor’s death? No. It failed.
#15107791
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

1. I have no idea how a discussion about word definitions will help solve the massive incarceration problem facing black US citizens today, but feel free to explain.


I already explained it to you: If you ignore confounders, then you will arrive at the wrong conclusions and implement the wrong solutions.

Pants-of-dog wrote:I think a historical approach showing how these policies came about as a continuation of Jim Crow laws and slavery laws (which also served a similar financial purpose, and “so targeted black people) helps understand how these problems came to be, and why we need to address the systemic racism in police and penitentiaries.


I think a proper empirical, scientific approach, which actually looks at the relevant outcome data and deals with confounding, mediation and other issues, would be a lot better than engaging in conspiracy theories and pseudohistory.

Pants-of-dog wrote:2. Exactly. If the civil court system has to be used in cases of criminal conduct like this, that means the criminal court system failed. Is the criminal law and order system holding anyone accountable for Breonna Taylor’s death? No. It failed.


Or maybe it's not clear if there is criminal liability involved in this particular instance. So, what crime did the cops commit under Kentucky law?
#15107794
@wat0n

1. Your offtopic opinion on different methodologies is noted. Regardless of what has caused this set of policies that started right after Jim Crow ended and has sent a disproportionately high number of black people into forced labor, we agree that this is a problem and that many policies need to change.

You seem to favour a gradual approach where police brutality and police killings targetting black people slowly goes away as police are slowly forced to accept minor reforms.

I think that we should listen to black communities and other communities targeted by police brutality and police killings and let them decide what pace reforms should have.

2. No, you have already explained how this unjustifiable killing of an innocent person is perfectly legal, and while you agree that the police made a long series of errors that led to her killing, no individual is actually responsible so neither is the police who (as an institution) are wholly the cause for her killing. Her completely legal killing.
#15107795
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

1. Your offtopic opinion on different methodologies is noted. Regardless of what has caused this set of policies that started right after Jim Crow ended and has sent a disproportionately high number of black people into forced labor, we agree that this is a problem and that many policies need to change.

You seem to favour a gradual approach where police brutality and police killings targetting black people slowly goes away as police are slowly forced to accept minor reforms.

I think that we should listen to black communities and other communities targeted by police brutality and police killings and let them decide what pace reforms should have.


No, I favor an approach where the socioeconomic determinants of crime are addressed and at least some behavior is decriminalized (mainly drug sales and consumption), while keeping police capabilities constant and increasing monitoring to deal with the fallout. In practice this will take a tax hike and some form of social policies, community investment and income redistribution. Those socioeconomic determinants have to do more with poverty and similar issues rather than skin tone.

Pants-of-dog wrote:2. No, you have already explained how this unjustifiable killing of an innocent person is perfectly legal, and while you agree that the police made a long series of errors that led to her killing, no individual is actually responsible so neither is the police who (as an institution) are wholly the cause for her killing. Her completely legal killing.


How can it be perfectly legal if there is civil liability for the PD? And of course the PD is responsible for botching the intelligence gathering.

I'm still waiting for you to cite Kentucky statute to know how would cops be charged.
#15107804
We are having an infinite conversation about a video/videos we have all seen. There is no doubt that the officers were wrong. A court will decide how wrong.

It is also clear that racists will go to every possible extent to find some excuse that feeds their white supremacist leanings.
#15107807
Drlee wrote:It is also clear that racists will go to every possible extent to find some excuse that feeds their white supremacist leanings.


Come now, wat0n admitted in the cancel culture thread this is not about making excuses, but he's way of trying to hone his "arguments" he might have in real life.

Of course he fails utterly :lol:

But that's not the point. He is just expressing himself. We are test-subjects in his attempts to master oratory skills, to use....somewhere. Not sure where, he didn't say.
Last edited by skinster on 16 Jul 2020 01:13, edited 1 time in total.
#15107809
skinster wrote:Come now, wat0n admitted in the cancel culture this is not about making excuses, but he's way of trying to hone his "arguments" he might have in real life.

Of course he fails utterly :lol:

But that's not the point. He is just expressing himself. We are test-subjects in his attempts to master oratory skills, to use....somewhere. Not sure where, he didn't say.


I don't think I said I was to use that IRL. Is this inability to understand plain English why you can only limit yourself to reading 200 characters? Or maybe my post was too long?
#15107824
@wat0n I don't think I said I was to use that IRL. Is this inability to understand plain English why you can only limit yourself to reading 200 characters? Or maybe my post was too long?


Skinster is a persuasive person who finds she needs to use few words. This is something from which you and I could learn.
#15107827
Drlee wrote:Skinster is a persuasive person who finds she needs to use few words. This is something from which you and I could learn.


wat0n can definitely learn from it. He's weird attacks at me for sharing articles via Twitter are basically ad-homs. But apparently he's trying to hone his arguing skills, like what he said in the cancel culture thread. :lol:
#15107837
Pants-of-dog wrote:And this stat is misleading. This makes it seem like only two cops did this. At least three cops were present to kill Elijah McClain alone. And it assumes that black cops cannot possibly be supporting racism. Is that the assumption?

Well one cop pulls the trigger, but yes other cops can present and do nothing about it. It doesn't assume anything about black cops.

If your argument is that the arguments of BLM are BS because of your odd interpretation of one (incomplete) database, that is weak.

Even though the catalyst for its founding was BS (Michael Brown "murder"), BLM isn't BS, I support BLM, I support the Floyd protests, there's still police brutality and racism. As we've said, Floyd wouldn't count towards those stats. I'm just saying the problem isn't as big as it's made out to be, the narratives are twisted and exaggerated. And nobody seems to care about the cops who are killed all the time in the line of duty by black people or people of other races.

This new argument seems to be that we should ignore systemic racism and police brutality because one error was made once by people protesting this police state overreach.

No that's not what i'm saying. We shouldn't ignore injustices. My point on that is that some narratives are BS. And many people are now knee-jerk automatically siding with the black person over the cop whenever a black person is called, without evidence. They never give the cop the benefit of the doubt, or even care about the cop. Cops are now stereotyped as these big bad oppressors who are always out to do evil (sometimes they are) and any black person who gets killed by a cop is a victim (sometimes they are). The point really is we shouldn't make assumptions and jump to conclusions without evidence.

Black people are human beings and so are cops. All black people aren't innocent victims nor are all black people criminals, same with cops. People are now doing to cops what racists have been doing to black people for centuries: creating negative stereotypes based on over-generalizations.

The Israeli/Palestinian conflict you see the same thing. People usually take one side over the other, and think one is the victim and the other is violent and evil. That's just black-and-white overly simplistic thinking with no empathy to the opposing side, which causes more conflict & division. Everyone is a human being. Israel has done bad things, and they've been victimized too, and Palestinians have done bad things but also have been victimized too. Same thing with black Americans and cops. But everyone plays it like a sport where they cheer for one team and boo the other.
#15107852
Funny because it's true.

Every Member Of Police Department Excitedly Volunteers To Go Undercover In White Supremacist Group
BALTIMORE, MD—As the police chief expressed amazement over the general enthusiasm for receiving the assignment, every member of the Baltimore Police Department was reportedly excitedly volunteering Wednesday to go undercover in a white supremacist group. “I’ll do it! I would be so good at going undercover—if I’m in there, the white supremacists won’t even be able to tell the difference,” said officer Tyson Ellerton, trying to get the chief’s attention over the din of the entire rest of the department begging to be the one to investigate a new local organization dedicated to upholding white Chrstian nationalism through violent means. “Please let me do it! No one will work harder than me to get into their mindset and lifestyle. Two months, two years, whatever it takes. I will live like a white supremacist to get inside their heads and understand how they work. Plus, I’ve already been working on an inside source—someone I just met, somehow—so I can use that connection to gain acceptance quickly. Come on, Chief, please please please. I’ve trained my whole life for this.” At press time, a thrilled Ellerton exclaimed that he had just a few minutes to make it to the white supremacist group’s upcoming meeting, leaving the station before the police chief had a chance to ask how he knew the scheduled time.
https://www.theonion.com/every-member-o ... dium=email
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