The Wuhan virus—how are we doing? - Page 12 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15107943
Doug64 wrote:@BeesKnee5

I get it, you don’t like the difference in the rates of change the chart shows. You might want to consider why that is such a problem for you.


If that's what you think then you really dont get it.

The difference in rate of change is skewed by the choice of baseline, as such the chart distorts the true figures. I can't begin to tell you how often I see this and the poster can't understand why this might be a problem.

How about sharing your source?
#15107954
@Doug64 , the basic reason your chart is pointless is that everyone knows that deaths lag the reporting of cases, by 2 weeks or more. Selecting the same date to put both at "100" makes the chart useless.

@BeesKnee5 , his source is an irresponsible Cato Institute economist, Alan Reynolds: https://www.realclearmarkets.com/articl ... 98986.html
Hypocritically, Reynolds commits that act of professional lying in a screed titled "Carefree Mis-Reporting of Virus Deaths From Alarmist Media".
#15107991
@Trumptards, as any moderately intelligent person will immediately be able to understand, the death rate trails the infection rate by about 3 to 5 weeks, maybe more, if we consider that mostly careless young people get infected now and that it's just a matter of time before it'll spread to the elderly and vulnerable.

In fact, the death rate for the Southern states is already starting to go up again. This trend is just masked in the national statistic by states that have brought the virus under control. Increased hospitalization, bringing some ICUs to full capacity, is a harbinger of higher death rates to follow.

The 1,000 daily death mark passed by the US yesterday isn't exactly negligible, but we'll likely be back at 2,000 deaths a day before long.


A Second Coronavirus Death Surge Is Coming

There was always a logical explanation for why cases rose through the end of June while deaths did not.

There is no mystery in the number of Americans dying from COVID-19.

Despite political leaders trivializing the pandemic, deaths are rising again: The seven-day average for deaths per day has now jumped by more than 200 since July 6, according to data compiled by the COVID Tracking Project at The Atlantic. By our count, states reported 855 deaths today, in line with the recent elevated numbers in mid-July.

The deaths are not happening in unpredictable places. Rather, people are dying at higher rates where there are lots of COVID-19 cases and hospitalizations: in Florida, Arizona, Texas, and California, as well as a host of smaller southern states that all rushed to open up.

The deaths are also not happening in an unpredictable amount of time after the new outbreaks emerged. Simply look at the curves yourself. Cases began to rise on June 16; a week later, hospitalizations began to rise. Two weeks after that—21 days after cases rose—states began to report more deaths. That’s the exact number of days that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has estimated from the onset of symptoms to the reporting of a death.

Many people who don’t want COVID-19 to be the terrible crisis that it is have clung to the idea that more cases won’t mean more deaths. Some Americans have been perplexed by a downward trend of national deaths, even as cases exploded in the Sun Belt region. But given the policy choices that state and federal officials have made, the virus has done exactly what public-health experts expected. When states reopened in late April and May with plenty of infected people within their borders, cases began to grow. COVID-19 is highly transmissible, makes a large subset of people who catch it seriously ill, and kills many more people than the flu or any other infectious disease circulating in the country.

The likelihood that more cases of COVID-19 would mean that more people would die from the disease has always been very high. Even at the low point for deaths in the U.S., roughly 500 people died each day, on average. Now, with the national death numbers rising once again, there’s simply no argument that America can sustain coronavirus outbreaks while somehow escaping fatalities. America’s deadly summer coronavirus surge is undeniable. And it was predictable this whole time by looking honestly at the data.

In the United States, the rising severity of the current moment was obscured for several weeks by the downward drift of cases, hospitalizations, and deaths resulting from the spring outbreak in northeastern states. Even though deaths have been rising in the hardest-hit states of the Sun Belt surge, falling deaths in the Northeast disguised the trend.

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It is true that the proportion of infections in younger people increased in June and July compared with March and April. And young people have a much lower risk of dying than people in their 60s and older. But, at least in Florida, where the best age data are available, early evidence suggests that the virus is already spreading to older people. Additionally, analysis of CDC data by The New York Times has found that younger Black and Latino people have a much higher risk of dying from COVID-19 than white people the same age. According to the racial data compiled by the COVID Tracking Project in concert with the Boston University Center for Antiracist Research, Latinos in Arizona, California, Florida, and Texas are 1.3 to 1.6 times more likely to be infected than their proportion of the population would suggest. It is telling that despite outbreaks all over Texas in recent weeks, the border region has been leading the state in deaths per capita.

Even with cases surging, if hospitalizations were not rising, that might suggest that this outbreak might be less deadly than the spring’s. But hospitalization data maintained by the COVID Tracking Project suggested otherwise as early as June 23. On that date, hospitalizations began to tick up across the South and West, and they have not stopped. It’s possible we’ll match the national peak number of hospitalizations from the spring outbreak over the next week.

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Even if better knowledge of the disease and new treatments have improved outcomes by 25 or even 50 percent, so many people are now in the hospital that some of them will almost certainly die.

There was always a logical, simple explanation for why cases and hospitalizations rose through the end of June while deaths did not: It takes a while for people to die of COVID-19 and for those deaths to be reported to authorities.

So why has there been so much confusion about the COVID-19 death toll? The second surge is inconvenient for the Trump administration and the Republican governors who followed its lead, as well as for Mike Pence, the head of the coronavirus task force, who declared victory in a spectacularly incorrect Wall Street Journal op-ed titled, “There Isn’t a Coronavirus ‘Second Wave.’”

“Cases have stabilized over the past two weeks, with the daily average case rate across the U.S. dropping to 20,000—down from 30,000 in April and 25,000 in May,” Pence wrote. In the month since Pence made this assertion, the seven-day average of cases has tripled. Several individual states have reported more than 10,000 cases in a day, and Florida alone reported 15,000 cases, more than any state had before, on an absolute or per capita basis.

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But there’s another reason for some of the confusion about the severity of the outbreak right now. And that’s the perceived speed at which the outbreak initially landed on American shores and started killing people. The lack of testing let the virus run free in February and much of March. As my colleague Robinson Meyer and I put it at the time, “Without testing, there was only one way to know the severity of the outbreak: counting the dead.” And that is how we figured out how bad the outbreak was. Thousands began dying in the greater New York City area and a few other cities around the country in early April. The seven-day average for new cases peaked on April 10, followed by the peak of the seven-day average for daily deaths just 11 days later.

Everything seemed to happen at once: lots of cases, lots of hospitalizations, lots of deaths. But some of this is also the compression of memory. Most of us remember the deaths in March beginning as quickly as the cases, especially given the testing debacle. That’s not exactly what happened, however. The nation did, in fact, see cases rise weeks before the death toll shot up. There was a time in March when we had detected more than 100 cases for each death we recorded. This is a crucial metric because it gets at the perceived gap between cases and deaths. And it tells us that we did see a lag between rising cases and deaths back in the spring.

During the slow-decline phase in May, the case-to-deaths ratio fell to about 20. Then, this summer, the case-to-death ratio began to rise in early June. On July 6, the ratio hit 100 again, just like in the spring. But as in spring, this was not a good sign, but rather the leading indicator that a new round of outbreaks was taking hold in the country. And, indeed, a week ago, this ratio began to fall as deaths ramped up.

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The U.S. came most of the way down the curve from the dark days of April, and now we’re watching the surge happen again. The testing delays, the emergency-room-nurse stories, the refrigerated morgue trucks—the first time as a tragedy, the second time as an even greater tragedy. One must ask, without really wanting to know the answer, How bad could this round get?

By the absolute or per capita numbers, the U.S. stands out as nearly the only country besides Iran that had a large spring outbreak, began to suppress the virus, and then simply let the virus come back.

No other country in the world has attempted what the U.S. appears to be stumbling into. Right now, many, many communities have huge numbers of infections. When other countries reached this kind of takeoff point for viral spread, they took drastic measures. Although a few states like California are rolling back reopening, most American states are adamant about opening into the teeth of the outbreak. And this level of outbreak will not stay neatly within a governor’s political boundaries. There’s no way to win this state by state, and yet that’s exactly what we’re attempting. From the look of the map, the South and West—regions with a combined 200 million people—are in trouble.

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The regional variation of the American outbreak is crucial to understanding both what happened and what’s going to happen next. Nationwide, the U.S. deaths per million tally—a hair under 400—is in the top ten globally. But look just at the Northeast’s 56 million people, and the death rate is more than double the national average: 1,100 deaths per million.

By contrast, the South and West—where SARS-CoV-2 is burning through the population—are much more populous than the Northeast. If those areas continue to see cases grow, they could see as many deaths per million as the Northeast did but multiplied by a larger number of people. At 1,100 deaths per million, the South and West would see 180,000 more deaths. Even at half the Northeast’s number, that’s another 69,000 Americans.

In truth, the fan of possibilities is probably wider. Looking at individual states, there was tremendous variation from low-death states like New Hampshire (288 deaths per million), to extremely high-death states like New Jersey (1,750 deaths per million), and a bunch in between, like Massachusetts (1,208); Washington, D.C. (805); and Pennsylvania (539).

It’s possible that the summer-outbreak states could follow the lower death trajectory traced by Pennsylvania or Washington, D.C. Right now, only Arizona, at 307 deaths per million, has crossed even the lowest line above, New Hampshire; there is a lot of room for things to get worse, even if they do not come close to equaling the horrors of the spring.

New York City is and probably will remain the worst-case scenario. New York City has lost 23,353 lives. That’s 0.28 percent of the city’s population. If, as some antibody-prevalence surveys suggest, 20 percent of New Yorkers were infected, that’s an infection-fatality rate of more than 1.3 percent, which exceeds what the CDC or anyone else is planning for. To put it in the same terms discussed here, New York City saw 2,780 deaths per million people. A similar scenario across the South and West would kill over 550,000 more Americans in just a few months, moving the country to 680,000 dead. It is unthinkable, and yet, 130,000 deaths—the current national death toll—was once unthinkable, too.

That’s still not the worst-case scenario for a truly uncontained outbreak, in which serious measures are not taken. For months, most public-health officials have argued that the infection-fatality rate—the number of people who die from all infections, detected and undetected, symptomatic and asymptomatic—was somewhere between 0.5 and 1 percent. The CDC’s latest estimates in its planning scenarios range from 0.5 to 0.8 percent. Take that lower number and imagine that roughly 40 percent of the country becomes infected. That’s 800,000 lives lost.

The point in laying out these scenarios is not that we’ll reach 300,000 or 800,000 American COVID-19 deaths. That still seems unlikely. But anyone who thinks we can just ride out the storm has perhaps not engaged with the reality of the problem. As the former CDC director Tom Frieden has said, “COVID is not going to stop on its own. The virus will continue to spread until we stop it.”

The lack of containment by American authorities has resulted in not only lost lives, but also lost businesses, savings accounts, school years, dreams, public trust, friendships. The country cannot get back to normal with a highly transmissible, deadly virus spreading in our communities. There will be no way to just “live with it.” There will only be dying from it for the unlucky, and barely surviving it for the rest of us.


I guess the only remedy now is for the White House to manipulate the figures by cutting out the CDC. I'm impressed that Donald has the capacity for cooking the books in addition to selling Goya beans.



How many more Americans is Trump will to sacrifice to win a 2nd term? According to the above it could be between 60,000 to 800,000 more Americans that may have to die for the cult.

All in all, Americans seem to be a docile lot.
#15107996
From an average of around 40 deaths/day Florida has recorded since April, daily deaths have increased 4-fold to 156 yesterday. Is that how a decline in the death rate looks like?

Florida sees another coronavirus fatality record of 156 as nearly 14,000 new cases added

And here come the refrigerated trucks as the morgues fill up. But the death rate is falling?

Arizona and Texas counties hit hard by coronavirus bring in refrigerated trucks as morgues fill up
#15108002
Incredible, I always knew that the Liberals were liars and cretins, but I must confess even I'm surprised by just how wrong they can be. The Swedish 7 day day average death rate has now fallen to 3. Sweden completely disproves what the Liberals told us. They said without fascistic lockdown Sweden was guaranteed to get tens of thousands of deaths. The Swedish death rate stands at 0.055% no where near the 3% death rate that the Liberals told us was almost inevitable without a total lock down.

I am of course aware that the Swedes until recently would have been classified as Liberals. This is the way leftists work. Leftists live in fantasy world where a progressive hero can become an evil Nazi overnight when they go against the party line. This is why Leon Trotsky became a Nazi and Imperial Japan collaborator in the deranged minds of the Communists. its why J.K Rowling has suddenly become person non grata.
#15108047
wat0n wrote:While using moving averages is often useful, please do post the raw data at least once. It is still necessary to understand what's going on, plus a 7-day MA may not be the best way to smooth the data either.


There are plenty of sources that enable both to be seen in the same chart, which I think is very useful in determining trend.

Capture.PNG
#15108048
BeesKnee5 wrote:There are plenty of sources that enable both to be seen in the same chart, which I think is very useful in determining trend.

Capture.PNG


Yeah, looking at the chart the 7-day MA probably is fine to show the trend - but smoothing may mask a change in the trend at the beginning of a break in the time series' trend. Thanks!
#15108064
Atlantis wrote:I knew you weren't very good at logic, but you are worse at math.

The Swedish death rate stands at 7.3%.

I'm talking about the death rate relative to the total population. Even that figure is open to manipulation and different methodologies of calculation, but its a lot more meaningful than the death per infection rate because we have so little idea what the true infection rate is.
#15108127
Rich wrote:They said without fascistic lockdown Sweden was guaranteed to get tens of thousands of deaths. The Swedish death rate stands at 0.055% no where near the 3% death rate that the Liberals told us was almost inevitable without a total lock down.


AFAIK, Sweden has still banned events with more than 50 people and has social distancing measures in place. We'll have to look at how much better the Swedish economy does compared to its neighbors. In the 1st quarter it grew by 0.1% while Norway's contracted by 1.6% for example. Those figures are usually subject to revisions and we haven't seen the 2nd quarter yet.

Also, in Sweden the virus kills less young people than in the US, which is probably due to less prevalent preexisting conditions.
#15108139
Rich wrote:I'm talking about the death rate relative to the total population. Even that figure is open to manipulation and different methodologies of calculation, but its a lot more meaningful than the death per infection rate because we have so little idea what the true infection rate is.


That may be meaningful if most people had been infected. As it is, depending on place, only about 0.3% to 8% of Europeans have been infected. Thus, your figure is totally meaningless as the virus is still spreading and the death counts continue to come in.
#15108141
Atlantis wrote:Thus, your figure is totally meaningless as the virus is still spreading and the death counts continue to come in.

No this is completely wrong. of course no measure gives a complete picture. The problem is that a large number of largely mathematically illiterate liberals have tried to use crisis for their simple minded narratives, and the thing has repeatedly confounded them.
#15108154
Rich wrote:No this is completely wrong. of course no measure gives a complete picture. The problem is that a large number of largely mathematically illiterate liberals have tried to use crisis for their simple minded narratives, and the thing has repeatedly confounded them.


This is an obvious mental projection. I don't believe anybody here has abused highly selective statistical data as much as you have to push your outlandish agenda.

Meantime in the US of A, another day, another Trump record. Yesterday, the US registered a record 77,000 new cases in a single day.

US COVID-19 New Cases Reach 77,000 in a Single Day, Some States Order Portable Cooler for Dead People

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At this rate, the US will be at 100,000 daily new infections before the months is up. And since the death count has started to increase too, the US will be back at 2,000 new death every day before long. It has hovered around 1,000 deaths for the last few days.

After the Recent Surge in Coronavirus Cases, Deaths Are Now Rising Too

But with Trump pushing for reopening of schools during a period of exponential growth, I'm sure he can achieve even greater deaths counts in the future.

Nearly One-Third Of Florida Children Tested For COVID-19 Test Positive

Even with Trump at the White House it is hard to believe how badly the US has failed. I don't even think it's by design. It's just a mind-blowing degree of incompetence of populists politicians.

Health systems on the verge of collapse, US posts a one-day high in COVID-19 cases

With the United States leading the way as the worst-affected country, the number of coronavirus cases and deaths worldwide continues to soar, reaching 14 million infections today, and threatening to reach 600,000 total deaths by tomorrow. Yesterday, 5,736 more people succumbed to COVID-19, according to the Worldometer tracker.

Three countries, Brazil, India and the United States, account for more than 50 percent of all new cases. Yesterday, the United States posted its highest one-day number of new cases with 73,388 and 963 fatalities, approaching 3.7 million cases, with 141,000 deaths.

Almost alone among major countries, the United States has significant sections of its political elite who are acting as open advocates of spreading the virus so that the population will be forced to achieve “herd immunity,” regardless of the cost in human lives.

This is the de facto policy of the capitalist ruling classes all over the world. But few have gone as far publicly as Georgia Governor Brian Kemp, a Republican allied with President Trump, who issued an executive order that combines pigheaded stupidity and criminal indifference to public health. It forbids city governments in his state to require the wearing of masks by people who are out in public places.
#15108167
JohnRawls wrote:Image


Considering his rating hasn't fallen to zero yet, this means Trump will die of exhaustion soon.
#15108169
Atlantis wrote:This is an obvious mental projection. I don't believe anybody here has abused highly selective statistical data as much as you have to push your outlandish agenda.

Meantime in the US of A, another day, another Trump record.

What Trump says is mostly noise. I do consider Trump a genius, but not in the fields of politics, history or philosophy. No Trump is a genius in the tradition of Andy Kaufman and Sacha Baron Cohen. What Trump says or does has very little effect on the overall outcome in the United States and his effect on the progression of this epidemic world wide is even more marginal. Republican governors have felt quite free to institute lock downs and totally ignore what Trump says. There has actually not been that much difference in the actions of Democrats and Republican politicians responses to comparable situations, except in the rhetoric that has accompanied them.

The same is true internationally. Left governments overall have not strongly distinguished themselves from right governments. Maybe the large majority of Germans are very happy with how Merkel has led Germany through this crisis. If so great. I'm not trying to persuade Germans to be different (except in matters of immigration and foreign policy). but the idea that America could follow Germany or New Zealand's path on this is totally bonkers.

Sustained strict lock-downs? Rigorous track and trace schemes throughout America? :lol: Don't make me laugh. It was never going to happen. For some countries it is not so much that I thought that non-vaccine based herd immunity was the best option. It was my considered opinion that it was the only option.
#15108174
Drlee wrote:
Note that none of the Trump supporters, such as Doug64 have a clue about epidemiology. To them it is just the source of some google charts they can misunderstand and use to support their fallacious opinions.



For a few of them, it's deliberate.

The constant denial of science, depending on how you want to look at it, 40 or 50 years, has gotten tiresome.
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