Cuba has proven that capitalism and technology are failures - Page 86 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15110245
skinster wrote:His legacy lives on in the minds of millions around the world, yesterday, today and tomorrow. When you die, nobody will care about you or be inspired by you, so you lose. :D


I'd rather be alive than dead and remembered, especially as a guerilla militant. Being a martyr is pretty dumb.
#15110246
skinster wrote:"I'm just going to defend the death-cult empire's imperialist wars on small countries abroad and their security - the police - at home, online, every day"


Are you projecting your constant defense for the gross human rights violations by the Cuban government against its own population onto others? :eh:

skinster wrote:Got it, wat0n. Thanks for making things clearer but some of us already know. Cool life you have going over in the USA. :D


I have no complaints, actually :)

skinster wrote:His legacy lives on in the minds of millions around the world, yesterday, today and tomorrow. When you die, nobody will care about you or be inspired by you, so you lose. :D


What's his legacy exactly? He rode on Fidel Castro's tail until he became a nuisance, and was told to fuck off as a result.

And what will yours be, anyway? :)
#15110266
skinster wrote:Imagine spending time hating on a poor island under economic blockade that feeds, houses and provides healthcare for all its people and provides doctors for other parts of the world....just imagine what kind of person that makes you.


Imagine using the Twitter propaganda of a totalitarian government to defend its gross human rights violations while at the same time pretending to be a humanitarian, imagine what kind of person that makes you
#15111424
skinster wrote:

This is a very powerful and beautiful speech by Hugo Chavez that demonstrates a deep understanding that the problems of the poor are universal. They are the problems that any human can have if the system they live under excludes them.

Poor people in rich countries like USA-Canada are often trained to instinctively hate anything related to the poor, and prefer to indebt themselves to an insane amount trying to pretend to be much wealthier than they really are.

So while the rich detest the honesty of Chavez's worldview, many of the false consciousness-ridden poor have been trained (by mass media and resultant social norms) to blame themselves for not being a upper middle-class representation of a mass media trope.

Hugo tells it like it is, but many of our poor prefer the Disney fantasy that makes us helpless gawkers who believe in fairy tales.
#15111459
wat0n wrote:At last: No, you are dead wrong - I may live in the US, but I'm actually Latin American and I am perfectly aware of the societal problems throughout Latin America. They are more serious than America's, there's more poverty, corruption and inequality than in the USA - and now Latin America also has to deal with identity politics and tribalism based on class, gender and race/ethnicity (in that order of priority), increasingly done in the American style, too. On the upside, Latin Americans are more social than Americans are (but even this can be perverted to become something worse than the stuff you see in the USA - Americans are a lot more respectful of your privacy than Latin Americans are).

Si quieres puedo escribir en español, y podemos ver quién entiende mejor a las sociedades latinoamericanas entre nosotros.


The worst that could happen to Latin America is the importation of race and gender ID politics. We do not need that crap in Latin America.

Great post
#15111478
Julian658 wrote:The worst that could happen to Latin America is the importation of race and gender ID politics. We do not need that crap in Latin America.

Great post


Too late, it's already happened - and indeed, gender and race have always been part of Latin American politics in one way or another, but usually secondary to social class and done in a proper Latin American style.

I think class is still the primary dimension for identity politics there, but race and gender have not only become more important than they used to be, but also identity politics is being done in the American way (based on critical race theory and all that stuff as opposed to basing them on Marxian concepts).
#15111488
That's not the case in countries like Chile, Argentina or Mexico. For instance, stuff like the term "Latinx" (to avoid assuming a specific gender or that gender is binary) is being used in the Hispanic world, but in a way that is more amicable for Spanish speakers (de-gendering these words by ending them with "e" rather than "x" since the latter is impossible to pronounce properly in Spanish. So "Latinx" becomes "Latine"). Yes, identity politics around gender has reached that stage already.
#15111491
wat0n wrote:Too late, it's already happened - and indeed, gender and race have always been part of Latin American politics in one way or another, but usually secondary to social class and done in a proper Latin American style.

I think class is still the primary dimension for identity politics there, but race and gender have not only become more important than they used to be, but also identity politics is being done in the American way (based on critical race theory and all that stuff as opposed to basing them on Marxian concepts).


All cultures are class conscious. People are also conscious of different phenotypes. However, in many Latin nations the culture is more uniform and people more or less have the same accent in speaking. They also share similar traditions despite the above described differences. Meanwhile in America you have people that have been here for 300 years with a different English accent, dialect, and culture. The population has been trained by the government to adopt race identity rather than national identity. In many parts of Latin America a lawyer or engineer of Spanish ancestry has many common cultural values with peasant of predominant indigenous ancestry. I am aware there are exceptions, but the sense of unity based on nationality is much stronger in Latin America. Meanwhile in the USA we are not far off from the day the American flag is considered divisive.
#15111492
Julian658 wrote:All cultures are class conscious. People are also conscious of different phenotypes. However, in many Latin nations the culture is more uniform and people more or less have the same accent in speaking. They also share similar traditions despite the above described differences. Meanwhile in America you have people that have been here for 300 years with a different English accent, dialect, and culture. The population has been trained by the government to adopt race identity rather than national identity. In many parts of Latin America a lawyer or engineer of Spanish ancestry has many common cultural values with peasant of predominant indigenous ancestry. I am aware there are exceptions, but the sense of unity based on nationality is much stronger in Latin America. Meanwhile in the USA we are not far off from the day the American flag is considered divisive.


The relations between the indigenous and non-indigenous are also becoming more Americanized, although this particular trend is a lot older. Why do you think Evo Morales was elected in the first place?

Another example of gender identity politics in Latin America: Back in April, Peru imposed a gender-based quarantine where males were allowed to go out on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays, while females were allowed to go out on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays. Everyone would be under lockdown on Sundays. The whole thing lasted for 8 days.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-52149742

The best response (in Spanish, sorry, but you can probably translate on your own):

Canal N wrote:Farid Matuk, integrante del Comando COVID-19, que apoya al Gobierno con las políticas públicas para hacer frente al coronavirus, reconoció en Canal N que proponer la salida de los ciudadanos en días intercalados y por género fue un error que asume y que lo ideal hubiera sido que las mujeres salgan 4 días y los hombres solamente 2. Anunció que un grupo de científicos sociales elaborará un informe con recomendaciones sobre las restricciones que serán entregadas el fin de semana al presidente Martín Vizcarra.


It cracked me up badly when I read it :lol:
#15111555
wat0n wrote:The relations between the indigenous and non-indigenous are also becoming more Americanized, although this particular trend is a lot older. Why do you think Evo Morales was elected in the first place?

Um, because the majority of Bolivia's population are indigenous, just like Evo Morales.

To see this as "imitating the USA" is to live out an absolute white supremacy narrative.

The USA kills its First Nations, including its few First-Nation allies, and then its "admirers" (like wat0n) see this as having inspired Bolivians to repeatedly elect an indigenous person as president.

And though I do see Latinx used in the USA, Mexico, and other commercial media outlets in Latin America, I never heard, saw, or encountered this concept in Cuba. Great haircuts, tatoos, lots of cute gay men, but no Latinx ID politics.

In fact, the only ID politics I saw in Cuba was "Cubans" and "tourists." Even Afro-Cubano seemed to be more of a cultural brand than a "socio-political-committment to your own kind." (ID politics)
#15111563
QatzelOk wrote:Um, because the majority of Bolivia's population are indigenous, just like Evo Morales.


I quite vividly recall how members of the different indigenous peoples themselves were saying they wanted one of their own in the Bolivian Presidency. And in return, Bolivia is now a plurinational state - the Constitutional epitome of identity politics :|

QatzelOk wrote:To see this as "imitating the USA" is to live out an absolute white supremacy narrative.


It's funny how you reject concepts from American identity politics yet you don't hesitate to apply them when it suits you :lol:

QatzelOk wrote:The USA kills its First Nations, including its few First-Nation allies, and then its "admirers" (like wat0n) see this as having inspired Bolivians to repeatedly elect an indigenous person as president.


There are similar stories throughout America (the continent), which is indeed a fact that helps to explain why is it that identity politics (in this case, around being indigenous) has gained traction. The USA also is far from being the worst offender either, in many other countries there is no autonomy for indigenous peoples (something that is in place in the US). The only thing that was lacking was the posturing and the obsession with identity, something that's easy to find in the USA and easy to broadcast on the social media.

QatzelOk wrote:And though I do see Latinx used in the USA, Mexico, and other commercial media outlets in Latin America, I never heard, saw, or encountered this concept in Cuba. Great haircuts, tatoos, lots of cute gay men, but no Latinx ID politics.

In fact, the only ID politics I saw in Cuba was "Cubans" and "tourists." Even Afro-Cubano seemed to be more of a cultural brand than a "socio-political-committment to your own kind." (ID politics)


And in Cuba, people won't share their identity politics because it goes against the Government-approved narrative and is thus a form of subversion. It's not exclusive to Cuban marxists either, a similar process happened in Nicaragua, where the Miskitos and other indigenous peoples rose in arms against the Sandinistas, which was eventually defused towards the end of the Sandinista experience.
#15111568
wat0n wrote:And in Cuba, people won't share their identity politics because it goes against the Government-approved narrative ...

Narratives are not as important to non-post-modern cultures who still work, eat, sleep and raise their families, rather then just interact with narratives like you, me and Jean Baudrillard.

But let's unpack your "won't share their ID politics" accusation.

In Cuba, people share a lot of things: their houses, their bikes, their food, their time, their child-rearing responsibilities, etc.

In North America, people feel weird about sharing things for many reasons: germs, fears of looking poor, lack of social trust, lack of connection to others, lack of community, lack of equality.

But one thing that we will always share with people is our ID politics. This allows us to constantly "play the victim" which makes it easier not to share anything or help anyone else.
#15111576
wat0n wrote:The relations between the indigenous and non-indigenous are also becoming more Americanized, although this particular trend is a lot older. Why do you think Evo Morales was elected in the first place?

Another example of gender identity politics in Latin America: Back in April, Peru imposed a gender-based quarantine where males were allowed to go out on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays, while females were allowed to go out on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays. Everyone would be under lockdown on Sundays. The whole thing lasted for 8 days.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-52149742

The best response (in Spanish, sorry, but you can probably translate on your own):



It cracked me up badly when I read it :lol:


In the USA I meet two types of Latin Americans:
1. Born in the USA
2. Immigrants

The ones born in the USA, particularly if they are 2nd generation and up acquire the USA policy of race identity groups. Some eventually embrace the noble victim status and start talking like some American blacks with regards to victimhood.

The ones born in Latin America have a much superior sense of self identity and much better self esteem. They never embrace victimhood and see America as a paradise.

The same applies to USA born blacks versus immigrants from Africa or the West indies. The latter are totally different with much better self esteem.

Watch this video at 2:00. It is a young bright woman that has come to America to go college and is in shock with the identity politics. Even though she is clearly of African ancestry she had no concept of racial groups growing up and the end result is magnificent self esteem.
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