The Wuhan virus—how are we doing? - Page 23 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15112313
@Hindsite What's the problem? Trump loves things named after him. :lol:


Since certain idiots insist on calling Covid-19, the "Xi" or "China" Virus, turnaround is fair play.
#15112321
We know lots of deaths were attributed to the virus without anything approaching proof.


No we don't.

And @blackjack21 The federal government had plenty they could do to impose proper behavior on the states. But that is not the deal. It was, and is, a total lack of leadership and now funding.

Trump has won this one though. He is riding the democrats like a cheap horse. Putin is advising him magnificently. Now his oligarchs are going to get the end of Social Security and Medicare which is what they wanted all along.

I do not think he will leave office. I believe he will try to overturn the election by federalizing the national guard and seizing the mail in ballots. I believe he will succeed. He will get four more years and by that time democracy as we know it will be over. It actually ended a few years ago with out of control gerrymandering but the illusion was kept in place by the election of democrats to the house.

What will happen now is that the dems will sue over the executive orders and the court will side with the president. And that, as they say will be that. New thread started.
#15112323
Drlee wrote:No we don't.
No, @blackjack21 is right. Every time someone dies of anything, doctors just throw their hands up in the air, in confusion, and write, "Died Mysteriously.", on their death certificate. Everyone knows this. Medical science is still in it's infancy. We still don't know what causes "Willful Ignorance", but it appears to be epidemic.

Now, please excuse me, I am late for my monthly Leeching.
#15112345
blackjack21 wrote:The federal government is divided, and doesn't have police power in the states.

Exactly right, every time Trump hinted at taking any domestic action beyond handing out goodies/cash and offering advice, various governors (mostly if not universally Blue State) threatened to sue. And they’d have probably won in court, which is probably why Trump backed down each time.

One of the interesting powers of the president is the power to forgive debts owed the federal government. So he could simply forgive payroll debts owed to the government. Democrats brought this power up as a way to buy young voters. Trump could steal Elizabeth Warren's student loan debt forgiveness issue by simply waiving student loan payments owed to the federal government too. That will really piss them off, because it was their idea.

True enough, if (probably more likely “when”) Trump needs another reason to look good some time down the road. Though he won’t be able to actually change the current setup, and would label it something like emergency relief to try to assuage Conservatives with the possibility that it’s a one-time thing.
Godstud wrote:@Hindsite What's the problem? Trump loves things named after him. :lol:


Since certain idiots insist on calling Covid-19, the "Xi" or "China" Virus, turnaround is fair play.

Calling it the China virus is just following the time-honored tradition of naming diseases after initial locations of their outbreaks (among others—people for various reasons, animals, etc.). China is a big place, though, which is why I prefer Wuhan virus. And note that no one had a problem with calling it the China or Wuhan virus (including multiple MSM(D) outlets) until the CCP began complaining about it and the Left realized that it had one more fake issue they could hammer Trump with. I haven’t heard anyone call it the Xi virus, though I have heard the CCP virus and even used it myself before when feeling stroppy. Which is fair enough, considering the actions of the CCP officials that at best permitted if not outright encouraged the spread of the Wuhan virus to the rest of the world much faster than it might have otherwise.
#15112353
Doug64 wrote:Only if you think the politics driving the issue of the Federal relief bill is important.


It seems Trump can find trillions to bail out companies but cannot find the same money to help out ordinary US residents.

And again, you duck the question to avoid acknowledging the clear fallacy in your position. Let me know when you are willing to take debating the issue seriously.


Why do you keep ignoring my questions and demands for evidence? This seems odd considering how offended you get when others ignore questions and demands for evidence.

Obama used his position to craft health care legislation that helped the whole country, so why is Trump incapable of doing so?

And here's the weekly report:

Image


The image does not work. Are you still using misleading flu numbers?

Also, You still have not provided your scientific evidence that children will be fine if they go back to school. Please do.
#15112363
Pants-of-dog wrote:It seems Trump can find trillions to bail out companies but cannot find the same money to help out ordinary US residents.

Trump’s latest executive orders suspends payroll taxes for people earning up to $100,000, extends unemployment benefits, defers student loan payments and forgives interest, and extends the moratorium on evictions. Which of these prioritize companies over the little guy?

Why do you keep ignoring my questions and demands for evidence?

I’m just following your example on previous threads, when others ask for me to back up my statements of fact I’m happy to do so if I haven’t already done so.

Obama used his position to craft health care legislation that helped the whole country, so why is Trump incapable of doing so?

You mean the healthcare that already exists due to Obama’s willingness to ignore both the Constitution and the deficit and lie through his teeth? Healthcare and insurance are supposed to be handled on the state level, nowhere in the Constitution is Congress—much less the President—given the authority to legislate in that area.

The image does not work.

I use Google Photos for my images, and they work fine on my iPad if I’m using Firefox instead of Safari. If you know a better option that doesn’t want to charge me an arm and a leg for the privilege, I’ll be happy to try it out.

Are you still using misleading flu numbers?

There’s nothing misleading about using the numbers provided by the CDC to compare seasonal flu deaths to the Wuhan virus pandemic.
#15112364
@Doug64

1, Trump has already given trillions to companies, but refuses to work with the Democrats to help average residents. This latest stimulus bill is another example of that.

2. Provide a link to where I refused to provide evidence. And show the evidence that kids cannot catch the Trump virus.

3. Your insults about Obama are irrelevant. I assume you concede that Trump has done nothing to help the peolle who are dying under his watch.

4. Again, are you still using misleading flu numbers? Yes or no? In other words, are you comparing confirmed Covid deaths to estimated flu deaths?
#15112370
    About 56.6 million students will attend elementary, middle, and high schools across the United States

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=372

    As of April 2, 2020, the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic has resulted in >890,000 cases and >45,000 deaths worldwide, including 239,279 cases and 5,443 deaths in the United States (1,2). In the United States, 22% of the population is made up of infants, children, and adolescents aged <18 years (children) (3). Data from China suggest that pediatric COVID-19 cases might be less severe than cases in adults and that children might experience different symptoms than do adults (4,5); however, disease characteristics among pediatric patients in the United States have not been described. Data from 149,760 laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 cases in the United States occurring during February 12–April 2, 2020 were analyzed. Among 149,082 (99.6%) reported cases for which age was known, 2,572 (1.7%) were among children aged <18 years. Data were available for a small proportion of patients on many important variables, including symptoms (9.4%), underlying conditions (13%), and hospitalization status (33%). Among those with available information, 73% of pediatric patients had symptoms of fever, cough, or shortness of breath compared with 93% of adults aged 18–64 years during the same period; 5.7% of all pediatric patients, or 20% of those for whom hospitalization status was known, were hospitalized, lower than the percentages hospitalized among all adults aged 18–64 years (10%) or those with known hospitalization status (33%). Three deaths were reported among the pediatric cases included in this analysis. These data support previous findings that children with COVID-19 might not have reported fever or cough as often as do adults (4). Whereas most COVID-19 cases in children are not severe, serious COVID-19 illness resulting in hospitalization still occurs in this age group.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6914e4.htm

So, 56.6 million x 0.017 = 962200

So, if the US just reopens schools with no precautions, the US is looking at approximately a million new cases.

Edited to add link.
Last edited by Pants-of-dog on 10 Aug 2020 03:12, edited 1 time in total.
#15112388
Doug64 wrote:I use Google Photos for my images, and they work fine on my iPad if I’m using Firefox instead of Safari. If you know a better option that doesn’t want to charge me an arm and a leg for the privilege, I’ll be happy to try it out.

Try imgur.com. You don't have to sign up. I don't see your images either (I suspect it's a question of permissions rather than what we use, but I'm on Chrome on Windows 10).
#15112464
Godstud wrote:@Hindsite What's the problem? Trump loves things named after him. :lol:


Since certain idiots insist on calling Covid-19, the "Xi" or "China" Virus, turnaround is fair play.

I first heard Nancy Pelosi call covid-19 the "Trump virus" because she wants to blame the virus on Trump as a political tactic. The virus was spread over the world from China. President Trump had nothing to do with spreading the virus all over the world. So the problem is that calling covid-19 the "Trump virus" is a political LIE coming from the Trump opponents and haters with Trump derangement Syndrome.

Pants-of-dog wrote:So, if the US just reopens schools with no precautions, the US is looking at approximately a million new cases.

That is just a scare tactic.
#15112473
@Hindsite Trump calling it the Xi or China virus was simply a way to make it political, and distract people from the mistakes that Trump is making. Whiners like you don't like when this exact same tactic is used against them.

Suck it up. Princess!!! You can dish it out, but you can't take it.
#15112487
Drlee wrote:Putin is advising him magnificently.

Do you actually believe that sort of thing?

Drlee wrote:Now his oligarchs are going to get the end of Social Security and Medicare which is what they wanted all along.

Social Security and Medicare depend on payroll taxes. If you keep people out of work, you're going to starve the system. Public transit is funded mostly by ridership fares. Subsidies cannot run the system. If people can't work, they won't be taking public transit. Highways are funded by gas taxes. If people aren't burning gasoline, the state isn't collecting revenue. That's how the system works Drlee.

Drlee wrote:He will get four more years and by that time democracy as we know it will be over.

Governors are ruling by edict right now. Democracy is over in California, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Michigan and a number of other places. That's why this election will be interesting. People who seriously oppose dictatorship will not be voting Democrat in this election. You're still afraid of what you think Trump MIGHT do, yet you are unafraid of shutting down businesses, letting rioters riot, and banning people from going to church.

Doug64 wrote:Exactly right, every time Trump hinted at taking any domestic action beyond handing out goodies/cash and offering advice, various governors (mostly if not universally Blue State) threatened to sue. And they’d have probably won in court, which is probably why Trump backed down each time.

Trump plays them pretty masterfully, and they don't realize it because their political bias is tied to the notion that people who do not agree with them are stupid ipso facto. For example, Trump's lawyers are suing on the mail-in ballots where the states are allowing ballots coming in after election day. That in effect changes the election day. So Trump trolls them and says on Twitter, "Delay the Election until people can properly, securely and safely vote???" Then they say, "No. You can't change the election day. It's decided by law." They are right, but they are falling right into his trap, which is simply to hold a free and fair election on one day.

Doug64 wrote:Calling it the China virus is just following the time-honored tradition of naming diseases after initial locations of their outbreaks (among others—people for various reasons, animals, etc.). China is a big place, though, which is why I prefer Wuhan virus.

I agree. It's the Wuhan coronavirus.
#15112488
Godstud wrote:@Hindsite Trump calling it the Xi or China virus was simply a way to make it political, and distract people from the mistakes that Trump is making. Whiners like you don't like when this exact same tactic is used against them.

Suck it up. Princess!!! You can dish it out, but you can't take it.

President Trump called covid-19 the "China virus" because it came from CHINA. Nothing political about that. I don't recall President Trump ever calling it the "Xi virus". You may have got that from Rich, who is the only one that I recall using "Xi virus" on here other than you.
#15112522
Herd immunity is still key in the fight against Covid-19


Open or close? Open the schools and close the pubs? Open bowling alleys but not skating rinks? Allow open restaurants but not wedding receptions? Britain is playing musical chairs with different services and businesses, but the whole game is misguided and without any scientific epidemiological basis. To open society gradually is certainly wise, but how do we pick one over another?

Covid-19 is a terrible disease, and the primary goal should be to minimise deaths. How is this done? The key is age. The risk of Covid-19 mortality varies more than a thousandfold between the oldest and youngest members of society.

The pandemic will not be over until we reach herd immunity, either through a vaccine or through natural infections. Herd immunity is not a strategy but a proven scientific phenomenon, and to deny that is as silly as denying gravity. With the right strategy, we can even use it to save lives.

Under the vaccine scenario, the right strategy is to protect the elderly and other high-risk groups until they are protected by herd immunity, while the younger generations keep society afloat. Under the second scenario of natural immunity, the right strategy is to protect the elderly and other high-risk groups until they are protected by herd immunity, while the younger generations keep society afloat. If these two strategies sound about the same, they are.

How does herd immunity work? As more people obtain immunity, it gets harder for the virus to find new people to infect, and the epidemic will eventually die out before everyone is infected. It is not known how big the group of infected people must be for herd immunity to kick in, but it is some percentage of the population. If there are many older people in this group, mortality will be high. If most of them are young, there will be few deaths. In fact, as stated by the world’s foremost infectious disease epidemiologist, herd immunity is ‘the only way we can reduce the risk to the vulnerable people in the population’.

Back to the musical chairs. With this in mind, we could open skating rinks that are mainly used by younger people, but not the bowling alleys, with their older clientele. That would be a small step in the right direction, but to minimise mortality, one must go all-in for the age-based strategy. We must do the opposite of what was done last spring, when schools were closed while sick patients were sent to nursing homes.

So yes, we can open schools, but teachers older than 60 should work from home, where they can help by grading exams and essays. Yes, keep the pubs open, but those in their 70s should stay away for a while. Yes, open the bowling alleys, but skip the senior league. Yes, let kids skate with their parents, but record their pirouettes for grandparents to watch at home. And yes, open all restaurants, but only offer take-out to older folks. The point is, open society for the younger generations, and when they have generated herd immunity with only modest risks to themselves, older people can come out as well.

Is it age discrimination when the old are asked to forego society for a while, while the young go about their lives? Maybe, but it saves lives. Is it age discrimination when young people take the small risks needed to protect the older more vulnerable members of society? Yes, for sure, but prior generations took much larger risks. As a society we should appreciate young adults who help generate herd immunity by living normal lives and keeping society afloat. Thank you, thank you, thank you. When people throw misguided complaints at you, falsely claiming that you are endangering others, remember that the opposite is true. Also, think of your grandfather. While risking his life fighting in World War II, he had much worse things thrown at him.

What about the children? While young adults can decide what risks to take, it is unethical to impose unwarranted risks on children. Are they safe if the schools reopen? The answer is yes.

With passionate discussions about opening schools, it is good to step back, take a deep breath, and examine what science tells us. To know the effect of smoking, we study smokers. To know the effects of vaccines, we study those vaccinated. Similarly, to know the effects of keeping schools open during the Covid-19 pandemic, we must study the one place that kept their schools open during the height of the pandemic. That place is Sweden.

Sweden never closed day-care centres or schools for its 1.8 million children ages one to 15. Of these children, zero died from Covid-19. The total number of cases is unknown, but the reported number is 468, which is 25 per 100,000. Of these 468 children, eight were hospitalised in an intensive care unit. This means that, whether schools are open or not, children are less at risk from Covid-19 than from influenza, which kills an average of 40-50 children in England and Wales each year. In contrast to influenza, schools are not driving the Covid-19 pandemic, and in Sweden, teachers had the same Covid-19 risk as the average risk among other professions.

It is inappropriate to either exaggerate or dismiss the seriousness of the Covid-19 pandemic. It is still impossible to know what percentage is needed to reach herd immunity or how many people will eventually die, and no respectable epidemiologist will make such claims. Nor do we know how long it will take to get a vaccine, which could be anything from six months to never. The one important thing that we do know is the enormous risk difference by age. Covid-19 is a formidable enemy, and in any war, one must take advantage of the opponent’s weaknesses. That weakness is the near inability of the virus to kill younger people. Hence, it is the young adults among us that must stand in the front line as we fight this enemy. If not, we will have many more casualties than necessary.

Martin Kulldorff is a professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School. He studies infectious disease outbreaks and vaccine safety.





Image
#15112541
Hindsite wrote:President Trump called covid-19 the "China virus" because it came from CHINA. Nothing political about that. I don't recall President Trump ever calling it the "Xi virus". You may have got that from Rich, who is the only one that I recall using "Xi virus" on here other than you.

First off I'm not particularly enamoured with Trump's dealings with China and North Korea. It just seems better to me than a Hilary / Biden alternative.

I don't see the Chinese people as a whole particularly to blame for the National Socialist Government they've ended up with, any-more than I see the German people as a whole particularly to blame for the National Socialist Government they ended up with. There are clear indications this virus was manufactured rather than emerging naturally. Its vanishingly unlikely that it was released by accident, the western scientists who collaborated in setting up China's biological weapon programme have vouched for that. :lol: This was no conspiracy. No it may have been the first biological weapons programme set up in public.

While there are certainly valid concerns about certain Chinese Cultural practices relating to food, in this case the Wuhan Wet food market scare is merely a ruse to divert the blame from the real perpetrators. The Trump organisation does not have a biological weapons capability, despite the pathetic fantasies of western Cultural Marxist. The Xi organisation (aka the Chinese Communist Party) does. Motive, Means and Opportunity, its all there.
#15112830
@Pants-of-dog Thanks for making my case for me. I mean, out of almost 150,000 known cases over almost two months—and two months when we weren’t testing as widely and so missing the large majority of asymptomatic cases—there were only three deaths nationwide of individuals younger than eighteen.

@Prosthetic Conscience Thanks, I’ll take a look after work.

blackjack21 wrote:Social Security and Medicare depend on payroll taxes.

That’s actually a myth—the payroll taxes collected go into the general fund, and an IOU gets added to the books and any extra collected spent on other needs. Every attempt to turn this government-run Ponzi scheme into actual savings accounts has been resisted by (among others) Democrats.

blackjack21 wrote:@Drlee
Governors are ruling by edict right now. Democracy is over in California, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Michigan and a number of other places. That's why this election will be interesting. People who seriously oppose dictatorship will not be voting Democrat in this election. You're still afraid of what you think Trump MIGHT do, yet you are unafraid of shutting down businesses, letting rioters riot, and banning people from going to church.

In Nevada, casinos are more essential than churches, and the Supreme Court was fine with it!

Rich wrote:There are clear indications this virus was manufactured rather than emerging naturally. Its vanishingly unlikely that it was released by accident, ...

Combining the known safety issues at the Wuhan lab with its work on bat viruses, I have no problem accepting the possibility that the Wuhan virus was brought there with test animals and escaped due to carelessness. OTOH, I also have no trouble believing that once the disease began to spread the CCP would choose to work to suppress it at home and spread internationally—after all, the CCP mandarins are likely to think, why should they be the only ones to take the hit?
Last edited by Doug64 on 12 Aug 2020 04:30, edited 2 times in total.
#15112831
@Doug64

You obviously did not read my post properly. This is why you ignored the fact that the Republican plan (to put kids back in school like everything was normal) will probably create an additional million cases of Covid.

Why do you think that having a million more people spreading the Trump virus is a good thing?

Anyway:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6931e1.htm

    These findings demonstrate that SARS-CoV-2 spread efficiently in a youth-centric overnight setting, resulting in high attack rates among persons in all age groups, despite efforts by camp officials to implement most recommended strategies to prevent transmission. Asymptomatic infection was common and potentially contributed to undetected transmission, as has been previously reported (1–4). This investigation adds to the body of evidence demonstrating that children of all ages are susceptible to SARS-CoV-2 infection (1–3) and, contrary to early reports (5,6), might play an important role in transmission (7,8). The multiple measures adopted by the camp were not sufficient to prevent an outbreak in the context of substantial community transmission. Relatively large cohorts sleeping in the same cabin and engaging in regular singing and cheering likely contributed to transmission (9). Use of cloth masks, which has been shown to reduce the risk for infection (10), was not universal. An ongoing investigation will further characterize specific exposures associated with infection, illness course, and any secondary transmission to household members. Physical distancing and consistent and correct use of cloth masks should be emphasized as important strategies for mitigating transmission in congregate settings.

So a million kids get the Trump virus, and then bring it home to parents, siblings and older relatives, many of whom will die.

This is not only a stupid plan, but an immoral one.
#15112841
@Doug64 What I say is inflammatory enough without you attributing stuff that Blackjack21 said to me. :eek:
#15112960
Pants-of-dog wrote:You obviously did not read my post properly. This is why you ignored the fact that the Republican plan (to put kids back in school like everything was normal) will probably create an additional million cases of Covid.

Whoever said that the Republicans plan "to put kids back in school like everything was normal"? All the schools reopening I've heard of include precautions, more than really necessary so far as I can tell (at least so far as the kids are concerned--like any other essential workers, the teachers need more).

Drlee wrote:@Doug64 What I say is inflammatory enough without you attributing stuff that Blackjack21 said to me. :eek:

I intended to attribute it to Blackjack21 aimed at you, oops. :eek: I've clarified it.

@Prosthetic Conscience Per your suggestion here's trying again, using imgur.

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