Blast in Beirut, Lebanon - Page 11 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15112576
Sivad wrote:Well if we're gonna do a cui bono analysis we'd be remiss not to include the Chinese. I'm not saying they did it, just that they had means motive and opportunity and I wouldn't put it past them.

Your "I wouldn't put it past them" is based on the mass media's targetting of China as the USA's new hate object.

Contributing to abuse is NOT the same as belonging to a worthy cause.
By Rich
#15112583
skinster wrote:Sivad's case is almost amusing because he could see Russiagate real clearly for the bullshit it was/is, but fell for Chinagate.

Some of us have been arguing since the late 90s that China is an enemy, but Russia is not. The Cold War is over, the Soviet Union is no more. I'm totally fine about us backing the Mujahedin in Afghanistan against the Soviets, but although I'm generally pro Nixon, I've never been entirely comfortable with Nixon's cuddling up to Mao.
#15112587
Rich wrote:
Some of us have been arguing since the late 90s that China is an enemy, but Russia is not. The Cold War is over, the Soviet Union is no more. I'm totally fine about us backing the Mujahedin in Afghanistan against the Soviets, but although I'm generally pro Nixon, I've never been entirely comfortable with Nixon's cuddling up to Mao.




[A] "peace dividend" refers to a potential long-term benefit as budgets for defense spending are assumed to be at least partially redirected to social programs and/or a decrease in taxation rates. The existence of a peace dividend in real economies is still debated, but some research points to its reality.[1]

A political discussion about the peace dividend resulting from the end of the Cold War involves a debate about which countries have actually scaled back military spending and which have not. The scale back in defense spending was mainly noticeable in Western Europe and in the Russian Federation. The United States, whose military spending was rapidly reducing between 1985 and 1993 and remained flat between 1993 and 1999,[2] has dramatically increased it after September 11, 2001 to fund conflicts like the War on Terror, the War in Afghanistan and the War in Iraq.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_dividend
#15112592
QatzelOk wrote:Your "I wouldn't put it past them" is based on the mass media's targetting of China as the USA's new hate object.

Contributing to abuse is NOT the same as belonging to a worthy cause.


yeah I'm not up for another round of 'commie kidz pretend the gulag-capitalist chicom regime is really a benevolent power that only wants to spread peace and prosperity and is too ethically enlightened to ever commit an act of industrial sabotage to further its own interests'. That game was retarded the first time around and now it's so thoroughly played out that I would rather drive a railroad spike through my head than go over it again.
#15112610
Sivad wrote:Well if we're gonna do a cui bono analysis we'd be remiss not to include the Chinese. I'm not saying they did it, just that they had means motive and opportunity and I wouldn't put it past them.


China?

For some clearly incompetence just seems too far fetched. :lol:

Anyways, the government is to resign...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-53722909

...I guess if it was even possible to fabricate a false flag here the government would have done so because resignation is basically not done lightly. Which basically is enough to quash the conspiracy theories because if they could have blamed China, Israel, Syria, Iran or even Hezbollah, they would have done so by now.
#15112615
Israel lobby group deletes call to blackmail Lebanon using aid
On Sunday, various governments pledged almost $300 million in aid to Lebanon, following last week’s catastrophic explosion at Beirut’s port.

The death toll has risen to more than 200 people.

As leaders gathered for the virtual pledging conference organized by France, one powerful Israel lobby group made clear its agenda.

“International donors are assembling an aid package for Lebanon. Assistance must be conditioned on the long-promised, long-avoided disarmament of Hizballah,” the American Jewish Committee tweeted.

“Unless the malignant role of Iran’s terror proxy is addressed, there will never be meaningful change for the people of Lebanon.”

I made a point of commenting on the tweet on Sunday.


But by Monday morning, the AJC had deleted its tweet:


Why?

After all, using the basic health and humanitarian needs of civilians as a weapon against them in violation of international law is a well-established Israeli policy, no more so than in Gaza.

Israel humiliated
Just as Israel hopes that depriving Palestinians in Gaza of their basic needs and rights will induce them to surrender, the same calculus undoubtedly applies in Israel’s approach to Lebanon.

Hizballah, it should be recalled, was founded in the early 1980s as a response to Israel’s invasion and occupation of Lebanon and the siege of its capital.

A formidable resistance force, Hizballah expelled Israeli occupation forces and their collaborator militia from Lebanon in 2000 and humiliated Israel again when it invaded Lebanon in 2006.

Israeli forces, unable to effectively counter Hizballah’s well-trained fighters, resorted instead to indiscriminate bombing of civilians.

That strategy hasn’t changed. On 6 August, The Jerusalem Post’s editor-in-chief Yaakov Katz outlined what Israel would do if another full-scale war broke out: “This would mean bombing the airport, the soccer fields, the port, private homes, office buildings, schools and more.”

In an even more chilling sentence, Katz added that “the constraints we usually see in Gaza operations would have to be lifted.” Given Israel’s repeated mass destruction in Gaza, it’s difficult to know what “constraints” he is referring to.

Targeting Hizballah
Israel knows that while it can inflict untold suffering, it would pay a very heavy price for such an attack – precisely because of Hizballah’s deterrent capability.

So Israel, through its lobby, has been trying to achieve politically what it cannot do on the battlefield: defeat Hizballah.

Given the large number of attacks Israel has launched against Lebanon since the 1950s – including repeated attacks on Beirut airport and the many car bombs for which it was responsible since the 1970s – it is not surprising that many in the region and in Lebanon suspect Israel had a hand in last week’s catastrophe.

But even if Israel did not have any role in detonating the huge stock of ammonium nitrate warehoused at Beirut port, the explosion presents an opportunity that Israel and its allies are eager not to waste.

“The question for Israel now is can this unfortunate disaster be used to change the balance of power in Lebanon, and encourage/inspire the Lebanese people to turn against Hizballah and remove it from power,” The Jerusalem Post’s Katz observed.

The first stage, apparently, is a campaign of baseless rumors and outright lies that Hizballah was responsible for the port explosion.

This tweet, for instance, came from a propaganda organization linked to Israel’s strategic affairs ministry:


There is absolutely no evidence for its claim that “the explosion stemmed from a storehouse of Hizballah munitions.”

Israeli and pro-Israeli social media accounts have continued to spread similar propaganda:








Outlawing support for resistance
To be sure, Israel has allies within Lebanon and in the region: Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates are both firmly on Israel’s side.

And European states – under Israeli and American pressure – are edging towards making it illegal to even support the notion that Lebanese people have a right to resist invasion and occupation by Israel.

When Germany recently outlawed what it claims is Hizballah activity on its territory, its interior ministry justified this by asserting that the group opposes “the concept of international understanding.”

Hizballah “openly calls for the violent elimination of the State of Israel and questions the right of the State of Israel to exist,” the ministry said.

In other words, disagreeing that Israel has a “right” to invade and occupy your country is now a thought crime in Germany.

Israel’s campaign to push for more political persecution of those who question its “right” to invade, occupy, colonize and kill as it pleases will continue.

And there is no doubt that European countries, especially France, will be partners in the effort to re-colonize Lebanon.

So why then did the American Jewish Committee delete its tweet?

According to a tweet it put out Monday, AJC claimed that the deleted tweet had not met the Israel lobby group’s “standard of nuance.”


It is more likely however that the tweet was simply too harshly honest about Israel’s agenda.

It was not in tune with the current propaganda message that Israel – which has killed and injured tens of thousands of people during its repeated efforts to destroy Lebanon – now only wants to help.
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/al ... -using-aid
#15112678
@skinster Sivad's only a babbit when it suits him. The rest of the time it's conspiracy theories.

The entire Lebanese cabinet has resigned.
:eek: Probably the wisest course of action they could take.

Beirut explosion: Lebanon's government resigns as public anger mounts
The announcement was made in a national TV address by Prime Minister Hassan Diab on Monday evening.

Many people have accused the country's leaders of culpability through their alleged negligence and corruption.

Protesters have taken to the streets and clashed with police for a third straight day.

The massive blast was caused by the detonation of 2,750 tonnes of ammonium nitrate stored unsafely at the port for years.

President Michel Aoun has asked the government to stay on in a caretaker capacity until a new cabinet is formed.

What did the prime minister say?
Mr Diab, who was appointed prime minister in January after months of deadlock, said his government had "gone to great lengths to lay out a road map to save the country".

But corruption in Lebanon was "bigger than the state" itself, and "a very thick and thorny wall separates us from change; a wall fortified by a class that is resorting to all dirty methods in order to resist and preserve its gains", he said.

Why Lebanon is in crisis
"They knew that we pose a threat to them, and that the success of this government means a real change in this long-ruling class whose corruption has asphyxiated the country," he added.

"Today we follow the will of the people in their demand to hold accountable those responsible for the disaster that has been in hiding for seven years, and their desire for real change," Mr Diab said.



#15112766
Full Speech:


Main point:


Sobhi Al Tofaily, the former leader of Hezbollah who split from Hezbollah, from Brital (A small town near Baalbek) is considered one of the main voices of the Baalbek tribes (The actual resistance that fought against Israeli, Palestinian, and Syrian attempts at occupation and invasion)

In his last speech regarding the blast, Sayyed Al-Tofaily stated that they all knew, they all should be put to Trial, but the main culprit is Hezbollah and Nasrallah on its head, calling the explosion an act by a group of thieves and traitors (Talking about Hezbollah) and stating that Nasrallah was warned multiple times not to store the Nitrates near Civilian areas as it could be targetted by enemy strikes.

The Sayyed further stated that Hezbollah stopped being a resistance long ago, but rather it's an aggressor now, and it's a culprit and responsible for the destruction of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Yemen, and calling for Hezbollah and all its slaves and dogs (Referencing the FPM and AMAL movement under Berri's control after the assassination of Sayyed Mousa Al Sader) to be put to trial and hanged.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regarding the blast itself, Ammonium nitrate is known to be a weapon of choice for these thugs with Hezbollah being caught storing and using it in Cyprus, Kuwait, Bolivia, Germany, Syria, and Iraq, as well as threatening to use it against Israel.

Various military experts stated that the amount exploded could not have been 2700 tons, but rather around 300 tons only, inclining most of it was stolen.

Various media outlets have recently circulated pictures of the tunnel system underneath the port. The tunnel system is famously built and owned by Hezbollah underneath Beirut and is where Nasrallah himself stays as well as many known and unknown weapons and missile storages.

Regarding officials at the port, the port manager is Badri Daher, an FPM appointee.
The manifest manager Ne'mat Al-Braks, an FPM appointee.
The security officials in the port during the period, Ali Al-hajj, Moussa Maziad, and Pierre al-Hajj are Hezbollah and FPM appointees (first two Hezbollah, third FPM).

https://www.alarabiya.net/ar/arab-and-w ... %85%D8%9F-
This article, though recent, and in Arabic, demonstrates that not only Lebanese people know full well the Hezbollah controls both the port and airport, especially after the 2008 settlement, but also points the endless stream of smuggling done by Hezbollah through the port to the point that even a representative ( Ziad Hawwat) from the strong republic block (an ally of FPM and indirectly, Hezbollah) has stated that Hezbollah controls both the port and airport and uses them as a main route for smuggling and put the blame of the explosion on Hezbollah as it controls the state and these passages since the 2008 settlement.



EDIT: The FPM is Hezbollah's main ally in the country and effectively works under an agreement where Hezbollah protects their corruption and they protect its guns.


EDIT 2: The ship is noted to have stopped in Sidon port for several months but then moved to the Beirut port.
The 4 main ports in the country are those of Tyre, Sidon, Beirut, and Tripoli.
Tyre and Beirut ports are controlled by Hezbollah, Tripoli port is control by the FPM, and Sidon port is controlled by the future movement.
You can draw whatever conclusions you want on why it just had to disembark and move to a Hezbollah controlled port instead of staying in Sidon port.


EDIT 3:
Also, Both Hezbollah and the FPM are refusing and fighting an international investigation and want the investigation to be done by their people.
Again, draw whatever conclusions you want.
Last edited by anasawad on 11 Aug 2020 14:44, edited 2 times in total.
#15112771
:up: good post. comprehensive and fills in a lot of holes.
#15112885
anasawad wrote:
EDIT: The FPM is Hezbollah's main ally in the country and effectively works under an agreement where Hezbollah protects their corruption and they protect its guns.



So then the recent 'anti-corruption' protests are actually anti-Aoun / anti-Hezbollah.


anasawad wrote:
EDIT 3:
Also, Both Hezbollah and the FPM are refusing and fighting an international investigation and want the investigation to be done by their people.
Again, draw whatever conclusions you want.



Look at what NATO wanted to do to *Syria*, based on allegations of chemical weapons. Same deal.
#15112888
@ckaihatsu
So then the recent 'anti-corruption' protests are actually anti-Aoun / anti-Hezbollah.

The protests since 17th october are against the entire political class. Hezbollah and the FPM (Aoun's party) are the ones in control for the most part with most corruption being by them, so they hold more blame than the others.

Look at what NATO wanted to do to *Syria*, based on allegations of chemical weapons. Same deal.

This is the 4th internal conflict in Syria, NATO's influence is minor as the destruction is mainly caused by the Baath party as it has a habbit of wide spread massacres, rapes, and ethnic cleansing.

Both wings of the Baath party (Syria and Iraq) used chemical weapons on civilians.
Both wings of the Baath party committed genocides.
Both wings of the party are fascists, thus a revolution against them is inevitable and happened multiple times.
And before you say they're not, they adhere to Socialist Nationalism and they were literally supported by NAZI Germany during the early stages of their rise to power.

So fuck both of them, they should be removed and they will be removed irregardless of how many countries step in to defend them.
#15112902
anasawad wrote:@ckaihatsu

The protests since 17th october are against the entire political class. Hezbollah and the FPM (Aoun's party) are the ones in control for the most part with most corruption being by them, so they hold more blame than the others.


This is the 4th internal conflict in Syria, NATO's influence is minor as the destruction is mainly caused by the Baath party as it has a habbit of wide spread massacres, rapes, and ethnic cleansing.

Both wings of the Baath party (Syria and Iraq) used chemical weapons on civilians.
Both wings of the Baath party committed genocides.
Both wings of the party are fascists, thus a revolution against them is inevitable and happened multiple times.
And before you say they're not, they adhere to Socialist Nationalism and they were literally supported by NAZI Germany during the early stages of their rise to power.

So fuck both of them, they should be removed and they will be removed irregardless of how many countries step in to defend them.


And who would you have replace your ''Fascists''? Have you seen the most powerful competitors to the Baathists and what they want?
#15112905
@annatar1914
My opinion is irrelevant in Syria, neither I, nor my people, want to interfere with them. We'll protect our borders and they'll handle their country.

Will the replacement be better? Highly unlikely, revolutions never go smooth and will always require a significant sacrifice over a period of decades.
Once the people of Syria defeat the fascists occupying them, they'll have to deal with Islamists as well, both Sunnis and Shias.

Furthermore, we must not forget that Syria is a forced union by France, and the various conflicts tend to happen along the same national lines of pre-French mandate borders.
Syrians will have to choose to either establish a Federal system where each former capital and national group rule over themselves, potentially even a confederate union, or partition.

The same challenge is happening in Lebanon between the ancient well known Lebanese union of city states and Mount A'amel in the south east, and the debate over federalism or outright partition is almost a daily debate in Lebanese media and political circles.

-Mount A'amel, the eastern half of the south, is the only non-Lebanese area that was only included after patriarch Hoayek made an agreement with the leaders of the mountain to join Lebanon before his negotiations with the French and the proceeding establishment of a proto-national pact

For Syria, those lines are Al-Sham, Aleppo, Latakia, and the Iron desert, along with the Kurds of course.
#15112927
anasawad wrote:
@ckaihatsu

The protests since 17th october are against the entire political class. Hezbollah and the FPM (Aoun's party) are the ones in control for the most part with most corruption being by them, so they hold more blame than the others.



Okay.

For clarification I'll go by the following reportage:



The Lebanese national flag was prominent, as were signs extolling October’s “Revolution.” Some set up nooses on wooden frames as a warning to the country’s rulers as the hashtag #prepare the noose took off. While some demonstrators called for a reckoning with all the plutocrats, others centred their fire exclusively on Hezbollah, the Iran-backed Islamist party. Its bloc is the largest in the country’s parliament, reflecting the dominant numerical position of Shia, who constitute 40 percent of the Lebanese population. Protesters burned an effigy of its leader, Hassan Nasrallah.



Nevertheless, one group of demonstrators, led according to Al-Jazeera by retired army officers, stormed the foreign ministry, declaring it the “headquarters of the revolution.” Before being pushed out by the military, they pulled down the portrait of President Michel Aoun, who has supported Hezbollah’s role in government, suggesting they have their sights set on installing a replacement who, under Lebanese law, must be a Christian.

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Others entered the energy and economy ministries, as well as the Association of Lebanese Banks.

Unable to openly call for Hariri’s return to power, these forces are urging the formation of an interim “salvation” government, “potentially headed by the military” and including bankers and other business figures, to “resolve the humanitarian and economic crisis,” and prepare the way for elections on the basis of a new electoral law—in as much as three years’ time. Their aim is to restore the direct rule of the plutocracy, in the service of imperialism, and limit or eradicate the influence of the “mobsters” in Lebanon and Syria—a euphemism for Hezbollah.



https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/0 ... r-a10.html



---


anasawad wrote:
This is the 4th internal conflict in Syria, NATO's influence is minor as the destruction is mainly caused by the Baath party as it has a habbit of wide spread massacres, rapes, and ethnic cleansing.

Both wings of the Baath party (Syria and Iraq) used chemical weapons on civilians.
Both wings of the Baath party committed genocides.
Both wings of the party are fascists, thus a revolution against them is inevitable and happened multiple times.
And before you say they're not, they adhere to Socialist Nationalism and they were literally supported by NAZI Germany during the early stages of their rise to power.

So fuck both of them, they should be removed and they will be removed irregardless of how many countries step in to defend them.



Your skewed, unsupported historical bullshit aside, I'll note that any such popular reckoning should strictly be an *internal* matter since the Western NATO countries have their own, *predatory* imperialist interests in the region, and have no right to intervene there -- or in Lebanon on any kind of 'anti-Hezbollah' basis, either.
#15112934
@ckaihatsu
For clarification I'll go by the following reportage:

The protests started in 17th of October, this passage talks about the ones just in the past couple of days.

Your skewed, unsupported historical bullshit aside,

The "unsupported" historical bullshit is called history of Syria's civil wars and uprisings since its founding and the constant in-fighting.
Try reading it before talking.

I'll note that any such popular reckoning should strictly be an *internal* matter since the Western NATO countries have their own, *predatory* imperialist interests in the region,

Considering that NATO's interference is minor in the whole conflict while the main body of the conflict is regional, as well as the fact that the leading movements have also fought the Baath party in the past, all the way back to the 50s, then it is internal.

You not understanding the conflict, history, and the dynamics of the region is your own responsibility.

and have no right to intervene there -- or in Lebanon on any kind of 'anti-Hezbollah' basis, either.

If one faction allied with a western country to further its own internal interest, then that's entirely in their right.
Just like the Baathists brought in Russia, China, and the IRGC.


Regarding Hezbollah; We made it, we built it up, and we'll destroy it. You and your friends can keep crying.
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