The Two Forms of Socialism - Page 5 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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As either the transitional stage to communism or legitimate socio-economic ends in its own right.
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#15112631
Doug64 wrote:Not at all, it can be created by democratically elected governments with the support of their citizens. Good examples are the wartime fascism/socialism of WWI & WWII US and WWII Great Britain (I don't know enough about economics in Great Britain during WWI to have an opinion). The problem is maintaining that fascism/socialism after the crisis is over--there you need a repressive authoritarian government, and in all three cases thanks to our embedded Democratic institutions and traditions those that would have liked to maintain that socialism weren't in position to do so when most citizens decided it was time to shut it down.

I just want to say that although we will no doubt continue to strongly disagree, I greatly appreciate the depth and breadth of your historical knowledge that you bring to the forum and I am often learning valuable knowledge from you.

Certainly in Britain while Britain was able to retain its democracy when it engaged in national socialist mobilisation, in both world wars there were severe restrictions on free speech and civil liberties. In the US in WWII, people of Japanese were rounded up and thrown into prison camps. In both Vietnam and Iraq the US discovered how difficult it is to sustain a difficult conflict when normal free speech and political agitation is not suppressed.

In the early twentieth century the dominant dividing issue between came to be nationalism vs internationalism not the levels of public spending, taxation and regulation. The Right were more sympathetic or a least less hostile to the Nazis across the ethnic European nations including the US. The Right in America were the least enthusiastic about FDR's unconditional surrender demand and least keen on de-Nazification, once Germany had surrendered in WWII. The idea that the Nazis had nothing to do with the Right just won't wash. Its like the idea that Libertarianism had nothing to do with slavery.

It was the same inside Germany, it was the parties of the Right and Centre that supported the enabling act not the Left. It was the Left that resisted the Nazis take over and suppression of civil liberties in Germany and Austria after the so called Anschluss, not the Conservatives or the Classical Liberal parties.
#15112635
Okay, DM, I know I'm slipping on the videos-count thing, so I'm just going to post whatever I have on hand.... (grin)


The Police - Synchronicity II




The Bangles - Manic Monday




Dirty Laundry by Don Henley [News Parody]




SHEILA E - THE GLAMOROUS LIFE




U2 - Sunday Bloody Sunday




The Clash - Rock the Casbah (Official Video)




Peter Schilling - Major Tom (Coming Home) (Official Video)

#15112654
ckaihatsu wrote:So which of the two forms of socialism does Titoism fall under ?


Nudism, apparently.


= D
This is not really exclusive to Yugoslavia , back in the day . For just one example , present day Germany also has had this " socialism " .
#15178985
We must not confuse:
1- Two ways to get power: REFORMISM accepts the State as it is and tries to use it to change society. REVOLUTION destroys the existing State to replace it by a new form of State. Normally, reformism is more democratic than revolution.
2- Two different contents of policies, two different changes they want to apply to society: SOCIAL-DEMOCRACY adapts the rules of capitalism to make them more tolerable; COMMUNISM has a different economic structure than capitalism. From a Marxist perspective, it allies State ownership and planning.

In fact, there are more than two socialist policies. Maybe an infinity. At least three. We can imagine a market socialism which combines market and different types of ownership, some collective ones and other ones private. It is an error to narrow the game. We can reduce drastically inequality without aiming at a classless society. We can combine market and collective ownership, we can imagine a large diversified panel of collective ownership.

It is possible to be a radical reformist, to be a socialist who is neither social-democrat nor communist.
#15178990
Monti wrote:
We must not confuse:
1- Two ways to get power: REFORMISM accepts the State as it is and tries to use it to change society. REVOLUTION destroys the existing State to replace it by a new form of State. Normally, reformism is more democratic than revolution.
2- Two different contents of policies, two different changes they want to apply to society: SOCIAL-DEMOCRACY adapts the rules of capitalism to make them more tolerable; COMMUNISM has a different economic structure than capitalism. From a Marxist perspective, it allies State ownership and planning.



I have to take exception to your formulation of 'revolution', though, because you're indicating that it leads into *Stalinism*, or state-capitalism, meaning a nationalist separatist professional bureaucratic elite of administrators that do not themselves produce commodities.


Political Spectrum, Simplified

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Ideologies & Operations -- Fundamentals

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Revolutionary socialism / Marxism is *supposed* to be about the workers of the world overthrowing the *bourgeoisie*, so as to dispense with private property relations altogether.



• All private property was nationalized by the government.

• All Russian banks were nationalized.

• Private bank accounts were expropriated.

• The properties of the Russian Orthodox Church (including bank accounts) were expropriated.

• All foreign debts were repudiated.

• Control of the factories was given to the soviets.

• Wages were fixed at higher rates than during the war, and a shorter, eight-hour working day was introduced.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_R ... al_reforms



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Monti wrote:
In fact, there are more than two socialist policies. Maybe an infinity. At least three. We can imagine a market socialism which combines market and different types of ownership, some collective ones and other ones private. It is an error to narrow the game. We can reduce drastically inequality without aiming at a classless society. We can combine market and collective ownership, we can imagine a large diversified panel of collective ownership.

It is possible to be a radical reformist, to be a socialist who is neither social-democrat nor communist.



I don't think it's controversial to say that one fundamental 'precept' of revolution is the *abolition of money*.

Your line is basically *nationalization* / radical-reformism, which could also be called 'Stalinization'. (See the 'political spectrum' diagram above.)

Here's a scenario of 'moneylessness', for a step *beyond* mere nationalization:


ckaihatsu wrote:
What about this economic 'nightmare' scenario: Everyone issues their own debt, endlessly, and unregulated by anyone else, or any institutions -- much of the modern world is ad-hoc, anyway, so people make and break relationships strictly based on 'going-forward', socially, economically, and politically.

Would it be better to wear a suit, than not? Would it be better to use cash, or to just issue new personal debt, since one could, that's not backed by anything. Limitless personal debt could even undermine *cash*, since governmental authority would no longer be needed to uphold a currency regime, and currency values.



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