Initial tests at Berlin hospital indicate that Navalny was poisoned - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15115310
Initial tests conducted by the prestigeous Charité Hospital in Berlin indicate that Navalny was poisoned with a substance from the group of cholinesterase inhibitors. This is the same type of poison to which Novichok belongs, which was used to poison the former Soviet spy Skripal in the UK. The German chancellor has called on Russia to investigate the poisoning with full transparency. The Russian doctors still maintain that they found no sign of poisoning.

Navalny made a lot of enemies by exposing corruption. The most likely perpetrator is somebody he exposed.

Since his admission at the weekend, Alexei Navalny has been receiving treatment at Charité – Universitätsmedizin Berlin. The patient is being treated in intensive care and remains in medically induced coma. While his condition is serious, it is not currently life-threatening.

Following his admission, Mr. Navalny underwent extensive examination by a team of Charité physicians. Clinical findings indicate poisoning with a substance from the group of cholinesterase inhibitors. The specific substance involved remains unknown, and a further series of comprehensive testing has been initiated. The effect of the poison – namely, the inhibition of cholinesterase in the body – was confirmed by multiple tests in independent laboratories.

As a result of this diagnosis, the patient is now being treated with the antidote atropine. Alexei Navalny’s prognosis remains unclear; the possibility of long-term effects, particularly those affecting the nervous system, cannot be excluded.

The treating physicians remain in constant contact with Mr. Navalny’s wife. After close consultation with the patient’s wife, Charité is reassured that the decision to make details of the patient’s condition public would be in accordance with his wishes.

Statement by Charité: Clinical findings indicate Alexei Navalny was poisoned


BERLIN (Reuters) - German Chancellor Angela Merkel on Monday called on Russia to investigate the suspected poisoning of Russian opposition figure Alexei Navalny and hold the perpetrators accountable after doctors found indications of a toxic substance in his body.

[...]
Berlin’s Charite hospital said a team of doctors there had examined him in detail after his arrival. “Clinical findings indicate poisoning with a substance from the group of cholinesterase inhibitors,” the hospital said in a statement.

“The specific substance involved remains unknown, and a further series of comprehensive testing has been initiated.”

Russian health officials contradicted the German diagnosis, saying Navalny had tested negative for cholinesterase inhibitors when he was hospitalised in Omsk last week.

Navalny showed no signs of having been poisoned when he was admitted to the clinic and tests were carried out on him to check for a wide range of substances, including inhibitors, the health ministry in Omsk said in a statement.

[...]
In their statement, the German doctors said Navalny was being treated in intensive care and remained in a medically induced coma. While his condition was serious, it was not currently life-threatening, they said.

The outcome remained uncertain and long-term effects, especially to the nervous system, could not be ruled out, the statement added.

Slideshow (3 Images)
Cholinesterase inhibitors are a group of chemical compounds used in everything from chemical weapons to pesticides designed to kill bugs, and human medicines designed to alleviate symptoms of Alzheimer’s and other types of dementia. Nerve gases and the so-called “Novichok” group of chemicals are also cholinesterase inhibitors.

The hospital statement said that Navalny was being treated with the antidote atropine.

That is the same drug used by British doctors to treat Sergei Skripal, a former Russian double agent, and his daughter Yulia, who were poisoned with a nerve agent in 2018 in Salisbury, England. The Kremlin has repeatedly denied involvement in that and other such incidents, calling accusations it was responsible anti-Russian provocations.

Merkel tells Russia to investigate suspected poisoning of Kremlin critic
#15115442
Atlantis wrote:Initial tests conducted by the prestigeous Charité Hospital in Berlin indicate that Navalny was poisoned with a substance from the group of cholinesterase inhibitors.

Like Malathion? It's pretty much an over-the-counter bug killer. I have some in my garage.
#15115468
blackjack21 wrote:Like Malathion? It's pretty much an over-the-counter bug killer. I have some in my garage.


They identified the type of poison but not the exact substance. It could be something like Novichok, but it could also be something made by mixing two components of commercially available substances such as pesticides.
#15115534
late wrote:Whether you call them GRU or KGB (which is what Putin was), poison is a long time Russia method of getting rid of people you don't like.


Whatever happened to the idea of "presumed innocent until proven guilty"?

The Russian leadership doesn't consist of only one person and not everything that happens in Russia is ordered by Putin. That is a very simplistic and misleading idea of how things work. Western propaganda has painted the image of Putin as a genius who is capable of anything. The real Putin is a lot more mediocre.

I remember the Yeltsin days after the collapse of the SU. People got killed all the time. For Western businessmen doing business in Moscow was very dangerous. A colleague of mine was based in Moscow. The stories he told were horrendous. Every oligarch had his own bunch of goons to whom a contract killing was a matter of routine. The oligarchs are still there, the goons are still there too.
#15115543
blackjack21 wrote:Like Malathion? It's pretty much an over-the-counter bug killer. I have some in my garage.


Kinda. The problem is it is pretty hard to get poisoned with consumer chemicals to the point of going in to coma pretty fast. I mean theoretically it is possible but you just have to inject chemicals down your veins. Otherswise it would take longer to actually fall in to a coma. If it was somewhere in the shop/tea then it took around an hour for Navalny to go from being a healthy human to a coma patient.
#15115644
Atlantis wrote:
Whatever happened to the idea of "presumed innocent until proven guilty"?

The Russian leadership doesn't consist of only one person and not everything that happens in Russia is ordered by Putin. That is a very simplistic and misleading idea of how things work. Western propaganda has painted the image of Putin as a genius who is capable of anything. The real Putin is a lot more mediocre.

I remember the Yeltsin days after the collapse of the SU. People got killed all the time. For Western businessmen doing business in Moscow was very dangerous. A colleague of mine was based in Moscow. The stories he told were horrendous. Every oligarch had his own bunch of goons to whom a contract killing was a matter of routine. The oligarchs are still there, the goons are still there too.



This is intel work, not a court of law. Different standards..

The Yeltsin era was chaos, esp. bad because the USSR had been so bad. Putin is basically a dictator.

As to the other point, if they are doing what Putin wants, you have a distinction without a difference. Personally, I'd bet he's a compulsive micromanager. Which means it's likely most murder happens on his direct order.
#15115669
JohnRawls wrote:Kinda. The problem is it is pretty hard to get poisoned with consumer chemicals to the point of going in to coma pretty fast. I mean theoretically it is possible but you just have to inject chemicals down your veins. Otherswise it would take longer to actually fall in to a coma. If it was somewhere in the shop/tea then it took around an hour for Navalny to go from being a healthy human to a coma patient.


a) We don't know that he was poisoned with the tea, it could have happened before

b) There are Alzheimer drugs using substances in this group of chemicals. Overdosing them can be fatal.

@Rugoz, @late, it's just as naive to believe that Putin is responsible for everything that happens in Russia as it is naive to believe that Trump is responsible for everything that is happening in the US.

If the Russian president had ordered the killing, they wouldn't have let him be transferred to Berlin.

You don't have to approve of Putin to understand that Western propaganda paints a distorted image of him.
#15115673
@late, it's just as naive to believe that Putin is responsible for everything that happens in Russia as it is naive to believe that Trump is responsible for everything that is happening in the US.

If the Russian president had ordered the killing, they wouldn't have let him be transferred to Berlin.

You don't have to approve of Putin to understand that Western propaganda paints a distorted image of him.

[/quote]

That's an interesting speculation.

But then there is Occams Razor, the simplest explanation is that the GRU was carrying out an order from an old KGB guy.

I admit, poop happens, but when you see the dead body of a wife, your first inclination is going to be to look at the hubby, the obvious suspect. It may not be where you wind up, but it's where you want to start.
#15115683
Atlantis wrote:@Rugoz, @late, it's just as naive to believe that Putin is responsible for everything that happens in Russia as it is naive to believe that Trump is responsible for everything that is happening in the US.

If the Russian president had ordered the killing, they wouldn't have let him be transferred to Berlin.

You don't have to approve of Putin to understand that Western propaganda paints a distorted image of him.

Believing Putin to be behind Navalny's poisoning is not the same as considering Putin responsible for everything that happens in Russia. I'm also not sure if he ordered a killing, he just wanted him out of the country and mostly inactive during the Belarus crisis perhaps. I agree that Western propaganda demonises Putin, however, Rugoz is right that Navalny would be too high-profile for anyone else to poison without the approval of Putin at least.
#15115775
Rugoz wrote:Why not? From that point on its a Western conspiracy. After all the Russian doctors couldn't find any poison and the Kremlin will continue do deny it and obviously never investigate.


There are different tests for different substances. It is possible that the Russian doctors in a provincial hospital didn't do all the tests they can do at the Charite in Berlin.

So far, there is only the suspicion of poisoning, but it's not yet possible to identify the exact substance. For that, further tests have to be done. They are scheduled to hold a press conference shortly. If they can detect traces of a particular poison, then the Russian doctors will have to admit the fact. They are scientists and science deals with facts and not political opinions.

Anyways, the Russian doctors must have suspected poisoning because Navalny was isolated and got Atropine in Omsk. Things you do when you suspect poisoning with a substance from the group of cholinesterase inhibitors.

In the Skripal affair, the British accused Putin of a nerve gas attack without evidence with the aim of scoring points in their geopolitical game with Russia and not for finding the truth. They didn't even communicate their findings to the Russians. What really happened was irrelevant, all that counted was the propaganda war.

The German government decided to present the facts (the Russian and German doctors are in direct communication) while calling on the Russian government to conduct a criminal investigation. If the Russians fail to come up with results, we can still accuse them of incompetence or of deliberately hiding the truth. I think that is preferable to the propaganda war.

@Beren, Putin came to power as a front man of a group of oligarchs. He has since acquired power of his own, but he could still be deposed if he went against their interests. Quite clearly, there are powerful oligarchs he can't control - and certainly not in every respect. An oligarch whose corruption has been exposed by Navalny would order the killing without asking permission from Putin.
#15115777
Atlantis wrote:Putin came to power as a front man of a group of oligarchs. He has since acquired power of his own, but he could still be deposed if he went against their interests. Quite clearly, there are powerful oligarchs he can't control - and certainly not in every respect. An oligarch whose corruption has been exposed by Navalny would order the killing without asking permission from Putin.

The problem with this is that murdering Navalny could cause a lot of international trouble to Putin as well as the Russian government, so if it could be done without Putin's permission, then anyone in Russia could be killed without it, which I find highly unlikely and unrealistic. That's just not how organised crime is supposed to work, because what makes it organised if anyone can be killed without the permission of the boss of bosses.
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