100th Night of Fiery but Mostly Peaceful Protests in Portland - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15123464
@Pants-of-dog, you are aware that most of the “mostly peaceful protesters” in these ongoing sieges of city governments are White, right?
#15123475
@Pants-of-dog, please provide proof of your assertion that most of the violence is the fault of the police or counter-protestors. Just this last weekend in Portland there were marches/protests from both sides, but it was the AntiFA side of the equation that set up another confrontation with the police Saturday night and pelted the police with cans, firecrackers, rocks and ball bearings fired from wrist-mounted slingshots And brought a can of bear repellent (though the last seems to have been seized before it could be used).
#15123476
Doug64 wrote:@Pants-of-dog, please provide proof of your assertion that most of the violence is the fault of the police or counter-protestors. Just this last weekend in Portland there were marches/protests from both sides, but it was the AntiFA side of the equation that set up another confrontation with the police Saturday night and pelted the police with cans, firecrackers, rocks and ball bearings fired from wrist-mounted slingshots And brought a can of bear repellent (though the last seems to have been seized before it could be used).


Do you have a source besides Fox News or Donald Trump?
#15123490
Doug64 wrote:@Pants-of-dog, please provide proof of your assertion that most of the violence is the fault of the police or counter-protestors. Just this last weekend in Portland there were marches/protests from both sides, but it was the AntiFA side of the equation that set up another confrontation with the police Saturday night and pelted the police with cans, firecrackers, rocks and ball bearings fired from wrist-mounted slingshots And brought a can of bear repellent (though the last seems to have been seized before it could be used).


Again, how many people have been killed by police and counter-protesters and how many have been killed by Antifa and BLM?
#15123511
KurtFF8 wrote:Do you have a source besides Fox News or Donald Trump?

I pretty much ignore Trump and rarely source from Fox News.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Again, how many people have been killed by police and counter-protesters and how many have been killed by Antifa and BLM?

You didn’t say deaths, you said violence. Nor are the two synonymous—the cop that shot and killed Ricardo Munoz wasn’t responsible for the violence, Munoz was when he decided to attack the cop with a knife. Likewise Rittenhouse wasn’t responsible for the violence that resulted in him killing two attackers and wounding a third, the responsibility lies with those that attacked him.
#15123517
Doug64 wrote:I pretty much ignore Trump and rarely source from Fox News.


I find that hard to believe considering your rhetoric mirrors theirs.


Likewise Rittenhouse wasn’t responsible for the violence that resulted in him killing two attackers and wounding a third, the responsibility lies with those that attacked him.


Wow, so now you're justifying murder by falsely claiming that terrorist Rittenhouse "wasn't responsible" for killing the people that...he did indeed kill.
#15123518
Doug64 wrote:I pretty much ignore Trump and rarely source from Fox News.


You didn’t say deaths, you said violence. Nor are the two synonymous—the cop that shot and killed Ricardo Munoz wasn’t responsible for the violence, Munoz was when he decided to attack the cop with a knife. Likewise Rittenhouse wasn’t responsible for the violence that resulted in him killing two attackers and wounding a third, the responsibility lies with those that attacked him.


If you want to look at violence, then 7% of the protests have been violent. This includes vandalism and property damage. So a protest where no one was hurt but, for example, a statue was torn down would be in the 7%.

Police, on the other hand, have been violent in about 30% of protests. This does not include property damage by cops,

https://acleddata.com/2020/09/03/demons ... mmer-2020/
#15123588
@Pants-of-dog, I tried to look through your link, but when I got to the lie about structural racism in our police departments I gave it up as a bad job.

KurtFF8 wrote:I find that hard to believe considering your rhetoric mirrors theirs.

In the case of Trump, I prefer not to waste my time on people whose statements I can't trust. It's why I don't listen to Democrats much these days, the Russian collusion hoax and the Kavanaugh character assassination pretty much did for that. For Fox News, It's just not a website I've paid much attention to.

Wow, so now you're justifying murder by falsely claiming that terrorist Rittenhouse "wasn't responsible" for killing the people that...he did indeed kill.

To see that he was acting in self defense, you just need to read the criminal complaint. Go to the bottom of page 2 where the "probable cause" part starts, that way you skip all the ludicrous charges.
#15123590
Doug64 wrote:@Pants-of-dog, I tried to look through your link, but when I got to the lie about structural racism in our police departments I gave it up as a bad job.


Please present evidence for the claim that the ACLED is lying about structural racism in policing.

Now, seeing as you do not have any serious criticisms about the evidence, I will assume that you agree that protesters have been more peaceful than police and counter-protesters.

Now that we have that settled, please note that this means that the “leftists” allowing anarchy in the streets are actually causing less violence than the “law and order” governments who bring in cops and therefore cause more violence.

And this explains why intelligent city officials are more scared of violence from the Proud Boys than from BLM.

To see that he was acting in self defense, you just need to read the criminal complaint. Go to the bottom of page 2 where the "probable cause" part starts, that way you skip all the ludicrous charges.


I have already read that.

Please quote the part where a rational observer would think that the Kenosha killer was in imminent lethal danger. If he was never in such danger, it was not self defence.
#15123596
Pants-of-dog wrote:Please present evidence for the claim that the ACLED is lying about structural racism in policing.

Now, seeing as you do not have any serious criticisms about the evidence, I will assume that you agree that protesters have been more peaceful than police and counter-protesters.

Now that we have that settled, please note that this means that the “leftists” allowing anarchy in the streets are actually causing less violence than the “law and order” governments who bring in cops and therefore cause more violence.

Repeating other people's lies doesn't make them true. I have seen no evidence of systemic racism infecting our police departments, and until I see it I won't believe it. Until you can prove it, there's no point continually saying it.

And this explains why intelligent city officials are more scared of violence from the Proud Boys than from BLM.

Right, because it's the Proud Boys that the Portland police have been having to fight off night after night over the past over a hundred days, not BLM and their AntiFA supporters.

I have already read that.

Please quote the part where a rational observer would think that the Kenosha killer was in imminent lethal danger. If he was never in such danger, it was not self defence.

That's an interesting definition of self defense. you are aware that rape isn't lethal, right? For that matter, neither are crippling injuries, or even just an old-fashioned beatdown. And being in a situation where you can expect others of a mob to pile on--which they did--it isn't hard to end up dead once you're helpless. These desperate attempts of yours to pretend Rittenhouse was the attacker instead of the one being attacked are sad.
#15123598
Doug64 wrote:Repeating other people's lies doesn't make them true. I have seen no evidence of systemic racism infecting our police departments, and until I see it I won't believe it. Until you can prove it, there's no point continually saying it.


Your lack of evidence for tour claim is noted. And your argument is dismissed.

Right, because it's the Proud Boys that the Portland police have been having to fight off night after night over the past over a hundred days, not BLM and their AntiFA supporters.


Again, the actual stats contradict your claim. Unless you have evidence, this is going to be considered you simply continuing to believe incorrect thinys even after evidence has been presented to you.

That's an interesting definition of self defense. you are aware that rape isn't lethal, right? For that matter, neither are crippling injuries, or even just an old-fashioned beatdown. And being in a situation where you can expect others of a mob to pile on--which they did--it isn't hard to end up dead once you're helpless. These desperate attempts of yours to pretend Rittenhouse was the attacker instead of the one being attacked are sad.


Fine. Present evidence that he was in imminent danger of death or grievous bodily harm.

And the people only attacked him en masse after he had already killed someone and was in the process of fleeing a crime. Fleeing a crime is a felony, and if you kill someone during the commission of a felony, that is first degree murder in most places. So anyone he killed during the second lethal encounter was first degree murder.
#15123644
Pants-of-dog wrote:Your lack of evidence for tour claim is noted. And your argument is dismissed.

Proof needs to be given by the one making the accusation, and your previous attempt to provide proof fell apart due to it applying to Black police officers as well as White, and the problems with the type of investigation. Feel free to try again.
Again, the actual stats contradict your claim. Unless you have evidence, this is going to be considered you simply continuing to believe incorrect thinys even after evidence has been presented to you.

Once again, who precisely has been rioting, looting, and burning all over the country, and attacking the police in Oregon night after night for months?
Fine. Present evidence that he was in imminent danger of death or grievous bodily harm.

Already done multiple times.
#15123662
Doug64 wrote:Proof needs to be given by the one making the accusation,


You are the one who accused ACLED of lying, so according to you, you need to provide evidence they lie. If you do not want to provide evidence that they lie, then the evidence that we do have shows that structural racism is alive and well in policing.

and your previous attempt to provide proof fell apart due to it applying to Black police officers as well as White, and the problems with the type of investigation. Feel free to try again.


Yes, black people can also be racist. If your only criticism about the study is your belief that black people cannot be racist, then your criticism is incorrect.

Once again, who precisely has been rioting, looting, and burning all over the country, and attacking the police in Oregon night after night for months?


No one has been doing it all over the country. And both sides have engaged in violence and property damage. The police and counter protesters have caused more violence and damage.

If you choose to believe that the protests are violent despite the fact that I shoed you evidence, feel free. However, we all know that you are incorrect.

Already done multiple times.


No, you did not.

Seeing as how the Kenosha killer was never in a situation of imminent death ir grievous bodily harm, this was not self defence.
#15123737
Doug64 wrote:@Pants-of-dog, I think I’m done knocking my head against the wall of willful blindness for awhile.


Really? Good to hear that you will no longer be listening to those biased news sources.

Anyway, back to our discussion:

1. Please provide evidence for the claim that the ACLED is deliberately misleading anyone about systemic racism in policing or any other subject.

2. Please note that black people can be racist against black people just like white people can be racist to black people. Therefore, your criticism (that the study does not show implicit bias in policing because black police also shows signs of implicit racism) is incorrect. The cited experiment shows that black cops and white cops display implicit bias against black people. I would assume this is true for any cop raised in the USA, no matter what skin colour the cop has.

3. The police and counter protesters have been more violent. This is true for both property damage and physical violence against other people.

4. You are unable to show that the young murderer from kenosha was ever in danger of imminent death or grievous bodily harm.
#15124686
@Pants-of-dog, I have no intention of going through the effort of proving that the sun rises in the east. If you want to try again to prove that the sun rises in the west, feel free.

Meanwhile, in Utah (where apparently there are two independent BLM organizations, one of which actually wants to accomplish something when it comes to unity and working together):

Proud Boys, Black Lives Matter leaders hold joint conference: We 'denounce White supremacy'
Local leaders of the right-wing group Proud Boys in Salt Lake City held a joint news conference with a local Black Lives Matter leader on Wednesday to correct the record and “denounce White supremacy” after President Trump mentioned them during Tuesday’s first presidential debate.

“I will go out and say that the Proud Boys as a whole — I will say this on behalf of the entire national organization — denounce White supremacy,” the chief of the Proud Boys Salt Lake Utah Chapter, who only gave the name Thad, told reporters, FOX13 reported.

“We are in no way, shape or form White supremacists,” Thad said. “We have a vetting system that gets those people out of our hair. We do not have anything to do with White supremacy. We do not have anything to do with the Ku Klux Klan. We denounce those organizations.”

“I don’t care what color your skin is, we’re all Americans, and we need to find a way to come together instead of divide,” the group’s president, who only gave the name Seth, told reporters during a joint news conference in Washington Square Park, KUTV reported.

Thad and Seth appeared alongside Jacarri Kelley, the leader of Black Lives Matter Northern Utah chapter, which is unaffiliated with Black Lives Matter Utah.

“We do need to be able to reach across the aisle and have these tough conversations,” Ms. Kelley said.

She said she recently met with Proud Boys leaders in Portland, Oregon, and that they had a “productive conversation,” KUTV reported.

Mr. Trump sparked a wave of backlash during Tuesday night’s first debate against Democratic presidential nominee Joseph R. Biden after he told the Proud Boys to “stand back and stand by” during a question about whether the president would condemn White supremacy.

Democrats and media personalities accused Mr. Trump of openly supporting White supremacy and encouraging violence.

Mr. Trump later said he was unaware of “who Proud Boys are” and said he had “always denounced” White supremacy.

Enrique Tarrio, international chairman of the Proud Boys and a Black Hispanic, denied Wednesday the allegations of racism, tweeting, “The question was in reference to WHITE SUPREMACY … which we are not.”

The Proud Boys, who are known for their clashes with leftist Antifa activists, particularly in Portland, claim to stand for “western chauvinism,” which they say is just another word for patriotism.

“It means that the west is the best — western civilization is the best. That’s our opinion,” Thad said Wednesday, KUTV reported.

“Don’t get it wrong with like, male chauvinism or anything like that. Those are two different things,” Seth added.

The pair also dismissed any lasting influence of Proud Boys founder, Gavin McInnes, who stepped down from the organization in 2018.

“He’s gone. He’s not part of the organization anymore,” both men said.

They said they plan to continue to hold conversations with Black Lives Matter leaders.

“Meeting and talking and having that understanding allowed us to move forward with working together on police reform,” Seth said.

Meanwhile, Black Lives Matter Utah leader Alexis “Lex” Scott said her group doesn’t want anything to do with the Proud Boys.

“Black Lives Matter Utah would like nothing to do with the Proud Boys,” she told FOX13. “We believe they are a violent, White supremacist militia and we would prefer if they would leave us alone.”
#15124710
Pants-of-dog wrote:@Doug64

Get a blog. You do not debate. You just post other people’s opinions and refuse to answer questions.

That’s a rather interesting comment, considering my thorough critique of the ruling on the Washington Times in the “Undocumented Aliens and Crime” thread. The critique that you ignored entirely?

And while I post informed opinions of those in a better position to know whereof they speak than I do, I mostly post hard news stories that aren’t likely to get much coverage from the MSM(D). Informed debate and discussion requires facts, after all, and that’s what the Leftists in the MSM(D) want to deny you—or are simply so blinded by their own biases that they don’t consider them news worth bothering with. Like the story about a joint BLM/Proud Boys news conference condemning White supremacy, it doesn’t fit their narrative you see, any more than the fact that the Proud Boys’ international chairman is a Black Hispanic.

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