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#15105257
Eduardo Baptista wrote:Why Russia’s Vladivostok celebration prompted a nationalist backlash in China

The Russian embassy in China has been pilloried on social media by Chinese diplomats, journalists, and internet users after it held a celebration of the founding of Vladivostok – because "it is on land that used to be part of China".

The modern-day territory of Primorsky Krai, whose capital is Vladivostok, was formerly part of the Qing’s Manchurian homeland but was annexed by the Tsarist empire in 1860 following China’s defeat at the hands of Britain and France in the second opium war. It was handed over under one of three “unequal” treaties China was forced to sign with Russia, France and Britain that year, in an agreement that also saw the Kowloon peninsula being added to the colony of Hong Kong.

When the Russian embassy posted a video on Weibo of a party held on Thursday to celebrate the 160th anniversary of the founding of the city, whose name means “ruler of the east” in Russian, it prompted an online backlash.



Shen Shiwei, a journalist for state-owned broadcaster CGTN, tweeted that the post “recalled people’s memories [of] those humiliated days in 1860s”.
Zhang Heqing, a Chinese diplomat working in the embassy in Pakistan, commented “isn’t this what in the past was our Haishenwai?”, referring to the Chinese name[Note 1] for the area before its annexation.

Meanwhile, one Weibo user posted: “Today we can only endure, but the Chinese people will remember, and one generation after another will continue to remember!” and another wrote “We must believe that this ancestral land will return home in the future!”

The backlash, which happened a day after the anniversary of Hong Kong’s return to Chinese rule and the introduction of a national security law, comes at a time when borders are a particularly sensitive topic in China.

India and China are currently engaged in talks to defuse tensions following the recent deadly clash between soldiers along their disputed frontier.

But in contrast with the decades-long dispute with India, analysts argue that the relationship between Russia and China highlights the importance of border stability.



In 1991, Moscow and Beijing began discussions to resolve their own territorial disputes, which nearly led to war in 1969, and concluded with a final agreement in 2008.

Russia agreed to cede a series of islands in the Ussuri and Amur rivers to China as a result, but the status of Vladivostok never arose during the talks.
“Russia and China do not fight on the border because they have resolved their territorial dispute,” said Srikanth Kondapalli, a professor of Chinese studies at Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi.

Russia’s ties with China have continued to improve, but Kondapalli said Moscow’s lingering concerns about their shared 4,209km (2,615-mile) border continue to shape its foreign policy strategy.

He said this is one of the reasons Russia is selling arms to India as it tries to maintain a “balance of power between India and China”.

“The Russian defence ministry thinks China could pose a challenge to them in the long-term because they share a border,” Kondapalli continued.
“The border dispute has been resolved but they do think that as a neighbour, China could pose a challenge like it did in 1969.”


----------

According to some Taiwanese sources, there were actually backlash against the Chinese narrative. According to Radio Free Asia, some nationalist Chinese officials were met with rebukes on that they were having double-standards on Vladivostok and Hong Kong respectively. The following is a translation of an excerpt from the RFA link:

Although the Chinese government tried to dilute the issue by silence and suppression (of different opinions against Russia); Hu Xijin, the ultra-nationalist Lead Editor of Global Times, wrote a long editorial to criticise the Russian embassy, saying their post was an insult to Chinese emotions. He added that the 1860 Peking Treaty, in which the Russian Tsardom took away a large swath of Chinese soil, as well as the brutal massacre at the "Sixty-Four Villages East of the River", would be in the memory of the Chinese people "forever".

Still, he admit that the Chinese "have to accept that" these lost territories are now Russian, and they have to keep in line to the "fundamental principle of the international society in keeping peace".

Hu's words were quickly rebuked by netizens. One commented that "Diaoyu Islands[Note 2] are also now Japanese, but the Chinese Government frequently incited incidents", while "Hong Kong had been under rule of British, who built a global financial hub and a sweet home for millions of our fellow people[Note 3] out of a small fishing village. Still, you insist to take it back, and even want to revert it back to the small fishing village it was.

Soon afterwards, though, this rebuke was taken down and no longer visible.


In my opinion, taking down a dissident post means Chinese supporters can have a reason to declare the rebuke as fake.

----------

Notes From Patrickov:
1. The Chinese name, 海參崴, it's actually a translation from its Manchu name, meaning "a small fishing village on the coast", very much like what Hong Kong was perceived prior to its cession to the United Kingdom. Both quoted texts relate the incident to Hong Kong, so I didn't deliberately add this in.
2. Diaoyu Islands (釣魚台) are Senkaku Islands (尖閣諸島) in Japanese, a group of rocky Islands between Taiwan and Ryukyu (Okinawa) islands.
3. The original text reads "同胞", a common term in China to refer the people sharing ethnicity with them.
#15124195
If we are to go by historical maps when deciding which modern nation should be in control, the area that is now Vladivostok is in kind of a weird location.
It is true the Manchu people inhabited that area in ancient times. Early on in history that area was conquered by the biggest Kingdom on the Korean peninsula, then after that Korean kingdom disintegrated due to a failed invasion from China, the area went under the control of a combined Manchu-Northern Korean Empire, which was a legacy of the previous kingdom. Then it was conquered by Mongolian-like group from the West for a short time before the Manchu were able to overthrow them and set up a northern kingdom (the Later Jin dynasty). The Manchu were later able to conquer China, but the Manchu dynasty control of all their territory to the north, or at least the area in present day Vladivostok was weak or nominal, being indicated in some historical maps but not in others. (This was the time when the Song dynasty controlled the more southern part of China)
After this came the time of the Great Mongolian Empire under Genghis Khan, which claimed all the territory in the north and also conquered China.

The Han dynasty of China never really controlled the territory as quite far north as Vladivostok.
The Tang and (skipping over the Song) later Ming dynasties might have only nominally exerted control over the region, mostly indirectly as tributaries, but that area was considered very far away at the time and not seen as having much value.

The last Qing Empire controlled that area for a time (266 years), but then was forced to cede it to Russia in 1860.
(However, the Qing was founded by Manchus, so actually that area was under Manchu kingdom control for the previous 26 years before that)

It's fair to say that the area of Manchuria was not really traditionally part of China, but the Manchurians conquered China and set up dynasties two separate times in Chinese history, and most of the Manchurian territory itself wasn't a well organized kingdom due to it being so sparsely populated, far north, cold, and undesirable.
Last edited by Puffer Fish on 01 Oct 2020 20:50, edited 3 times in total.
#15124199
Rancid wrote:I'd imagine that once the US is less of a threat to China. Russian-Chinese relations will start to strain.


Possibly before then. It has long been part of Western diplomacy to get the main Eurasian nations against each other, and the logic of the geopolitics involved suggests that one of these nations might seek territory and resources from their neighbors.
#15124692
annatar1914 wrote:
Possibly before then. It has long been part of Western diplomacy to get the main Eurasian nations against each other, and the logic of the geopolitics involved suggests that one of these nations might seek territory and resources from their neighbors.



Wow, that's partly correct, didn't expect that.

That's 4 centuries of tension and conflict. Europe, and later the US, had almost nothing to do with that.

China is definitely moving back into Siberia, which is one of their revanchist ambitions. But Putin badly needs the investment they can bring to Siberia, and their historic tension is currently subsumed by their mutual dislike of the US.

Of course, eventually some Russian is going to have had enough, but by then, the power imbalance may be so large there won't be much to be done about it.

Which fits with my analysis of Putin, tactically brilliant, but a rum idiot at strategy.
#15124738
@late ;

Wow, that's partly correct, didn't expect that.


Not sure if that was a compliment, but I'll accept your insight that I can be insightful at times, and not here on PoFo for the compliments.

That's 4 centuries of tension and conflict. Europe, and later the US, had almost nothing to do with that.


Nations are bound to have tension and conflict at times, as well as cooperation and even alliances. I'll say that ''Europe'' did indeed have a hand in Eurasian tensions for reasons I won't go into (bit of a diversion to explain), but it need not be an existential crisis.

China is definitely moving back into Siberia, which is one of their revanchist ambitions. But Putin badly needs the investment they can bring to Siberia, and their historic tension is currently subsumed by their mutual dislike of the US.


Been to Siberia, lived there for a time. I'm well aware of the nuances of the situation. ''Mutual dislike'' comes from American Elites ambitions to be the nucleus of a World Government, and is natural unless and until that hubristic desire fades.

Of course, eventually some Russian is going to have had enough, but by then, the power imbalance may be so large there won't be much to be done about it.


I have my doubts about that, the ''won't be much to be done about it part''. Yermak didn't claim this territory so that it could be lost a few centuries later, but it is providentially as Russian as Banyas and pretty girls.

Which fits with my analysis of Putin, tactically brilliant, but a rum idiot at strategy.


Oh, I disagree. It's the same strategy in Russia's history as St. Prince Alexander Nevsky had concerning the foreign threats from the East and from the West, and for the same reasons.
#15124741
annatar1914 wrote:[usermention=41202]

I have my doubts about that, the ''won't be much to be done about it part''. Yermak didn't claim this territory so that it could be lost a few centuries later, but it is providentially as Russian as Banyas and pretty girls.




One of my nephews lived in Russia for a while, and came back with a Siberian girl. She just exuded sex. She was also really good looking.

That reminds me, I should have gone to Australia when I was a kid. Oh well...

I disagree with at least part of the rest, lost interest. If Russia can't own it's screwups, eventually my attitude hits tough titty territory.
#15124743
late wrote:
I disagree with at least part of the rest, lost interest. If Russia can't own it's screwups, eventually my attitude hits tough titty territory.


@late

The thing about wisdom and leadership in Russia historically has been that changes in direction are not advertised. Americans are congenitally incapable of keeping secrets, whereas the Russian adage is true of wise men that ''they know where the dog is buried'' and one cannot easily ''hang noodles on their ears''.
#15124780


The actual celebration of the founding of Vladivostok involved an outdoor concert, which was filmed above. The Russian Embassy in China had no intention to offend the Chinese with the Weibo post. Russia has called for greater understanding and people-to-people exchanges between China and Russia in response to a barrage of negative comments made by Web users on the Russian embassy's Weibo accounts. There are many racist troll accounts on Weibo, which is China's Twitter. No foreign or Chinese maps show any sizable Chinese settlement prior to the founding of Vladivostok. It was primarily inhabited by ethnic minorities such as the Udge, the Orochi, the Nanai, and the Mohe, who maintained their tribal lifestyle in the region, engaging in fishing and hunting. There was another holiday celebration to honor their cultural heritage in Vladivostok.

On Saturday, October 3, a holiday in honor of the Day of Tatar and Bashkir Culture and Traditions took place in the park of Minny Gorodok. Spectators could see a concert from the city's national-cultural associations, take part in competitions, among which were running in sacks and climbing a pole, as well as visit an exhibition from the "Ethno-Museum of Tatar and Bashkir Culture and Traditions."

The exhibits in the museum are very diverse: a spinning wheel, a pre-revolutionary iron and a cast-iron cauldron coexist with Tatar and Bashkir women's outfits, in which at different times they welcomed guests, cleaned their houses and went for walks.

Chairman of the Vladivostok Tatar-Bashkir public organization "Duslyk" ("Friendship") Takhir Ibashev told VL.ru that thanks to such exhibitions, guests and residents of the Primorsky Territory will be able to get to know the culture of one of the 158 tribal peoples of Russia.

In addition to the concert and competition program, demonstration performances and master classes from champions in sambo, Koresh, karate, freestyle wrestling and other sports from the public organization "Primorye for Sport" were held here. Elmir Valitov , head of the Federation of Koresh Wrestling and Belt Wrestling in Primorsky Territory, is sure that such performances will help popularize the idea of ​​a healthy nation:

“Koresh is a rather ancient sport, which is more than a thousand years old. This fight is popular among the Turkic peoples. Such master classes make it possible to popularize the idea of ​​a healthy nation, and the development of various sports makes it possible to stimulate the influx of the population to the Far East. "

The holiday was supposed to take place at the end of July, in Sabantuy, but due to coronavirus restrictions, the event had to be postponed to October. Takhir Ibashev hopes that next year it will be possible to hold a larger event with the involvement of artists from Tatarstan and Bashkortostan.

In the same year, due to the pandemic and active repairs in the park of the Mine Town, it did not work out to arrange really wide festivities. The excavators on the site did not fit into the exposition at all, and the stage was set up among heaps of rubble. However, due to the fact that in recent years the Tatar-Bashkir community has been holding this holiday here, they decided not to change the location.

Статья полностью: https://www.newsvl.ru/vlad/2020/10/03/1 ... z6ZqRvjOP2
Новости Владивостока на VL.RU
#15125368
annatar1914 wrote:[usermention=41202]

@late[/usermention]

The thing about wisdom and leadership in Russia historically has been that changes in direction are not advertised. Americans are congenitally incapable of keeping secrets, whereas the Russian adage is true of wise men that ''they know where the dog is buried'' and one cannot easily ''hang noodles on their ears''.



While Russians are congenitally incapable of owning it.

Which explains that silence you mentioned quite nicely.
#15125393
late wrote:While Russians are congenitally incapable of owning it.

Which explains that silence you mentioned quite nicely.


And what is it exactly that you want the Russians to ''own''? Certain completely insane conspiracy theories out there? They're using to reading about those.

Vicious, stupid, and feckless cowards run the West it seems. When it comes to that point historically, there is a 'rotation' of the Elites and persons less vicious, stupid, and cowardly begin to lead.
#15125436
late wrote:The responsibility for the mess that is their country.


That's part of the Western perceptual insanity and latent Anti-Russian hatred, your comment, whether you consciously realize it or not.

See, Russians are coming out of a mess, not getting back into one, and so there's the fear and hatred the West has of Russia, because Russia refuses to be a Vassal State with a comrador class of traitors siphoning all the wealth out of the country and into the banks of the West.

If you don't like that, oh well.
#15125447
annatar1914 wrote:
That's part of the Western perceptual insanity and latent Anti-Russian hatred, your comment, whether you consciously realize it or not.

See, Russians are coming out of a mess, not getting back into one, and so there's the fear and hatred the West has of Russia, because Russia refuses to be a Vassal State with a comrador class of traitors siphoning all the wealth out of the country and into the banks of the West.

If you don't like that, oh well.



Historians used to call Russia the Sick Man of Europe.

They will again.

The USSR collapsed after oil prices collapsed. Now that energy prices have again collapsed, Russia is again in trouble.

It will get worse.
#15125454
Historians used to call Russia the Sick Man of Europe.


Actually, that was the Turkish Ottoman Empire given that designation. I have a degree in history, was my calling for a while. Helps to wade through people's nonsense.

They will again.


See above. Your hatred is showing, like a hunchback's hump-congenital and deformed/deforming. It explains a lot.

The USSR collapsed after oil prices collapsed. Now that energy prices have again collapsed, Russia is again in trouble.


The USSR didn't ''collapse'', it was collapsed, there's a difference.

It will get worse.


I'm sure you wish that. But God Is the One Who decides things.
#15125457
annatar1914 wrote:
1) Actually, that was the Turkish Ottoman Empire given that designation. I have a degree in history, was my calling for a while. Helps to wade through people's nonsense.



2) See above. Your hatred is showing, like a hunchback's hump-congenital and deformed/deforming. It explains a lot.



3)The USSR didn't ''collapse'', it was collapsed, there's a difference.



4) I'm sure you wish that. But God Is the One Who decides things.



1) It was also applied to Russia, and with good reason.

2) You would like it to be hatred, it's experience.

3) None of the other oil producing countries had governments that collapsed. That command economy was doomed from the start.

4) There are no gods. But there are plenty of people that do stupid sh*t.
#15125460
@late ;

1) It was also applied to Russia, and with good reason.


No, it wasn't and isn't.

2) You would like it to be hatred, it's experience.


It's not what I like, it is what I've experienced. You just prefer not to be called out on it and have it characterized in that way.

3) None of the other oil producing countries had governments that collapsed. That command economy was doomed from the start.


Not so. It was the concerted effort of persons within and without that created a Counter-Revolution in which the destruction came after, not before, they began to take over.

4) There are no gods. But there are plenty of people that do stupid sh*t.


More wishful thinking. You'll find out soon enough, as we all do, and perhaps you could stand to lose some of that bitterness inside. God is good and loves mankind, you too.
#15125465
annatar1914 wrote:

Not so. It was the concerted effort of persons within and without that created a Counter-Revolution in which the destruction came after, not before, they began to take over.





Command economies have trouble with rapid change. The Russian economy suffered a cascade failure.

After the collapse, Russian needed a massive amount of aid. They got a lot, but not nearly enough.

But beyond that, Russians had trouble developing a capitalist economy. They didn't understand it, and they didn't respect it. So Putin comes to power, and wants somebody to blame that isn't himself.

Russian history and culture made a difficult transition to a fully capitalist economy impossible, and you guys are still trying to pin the blame on everyone but yourselves.
#15125474
late wrote:Command economies have trouble with rapid change. The Russian economy suffered a cascade failure.

After the collapse, Russian needed a massive amount of aid. They got a lot, but not nearly enough.

But beyond that, Russians had trouble developing a capitalist economy. They didn't understand it, and they didn't respect it. So Putin comes to power, and wants somebody to blame that isn't himself.

Russian history and culture made a difficult transition to a fully capitalist economy impossible, and you guys are still trying to pin the blame on everyone but yourselves.


That's your narrative from day one, as deluded and deluding as Hillary Clinton and her Satanic conspiracy theories.

Not unexpected, but deep down I think you know better.
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