[KurtFF8]

I agree, they are not...yet. That doesn't mean it's ok to excuse their obvious imperialistic behaviors and openly stated ambitions either. By ignoring/excusing China's actions, you will just end up with another empire once the US is pushed out. If you are really anti-imperialist, you would be against current empires and potential raising empires (i.e. China). If the idea/hope is that once China supersedes the west, that they will establish some sort of international workers utopia, then that is a mistaken idea.

Their "openly stated" ambitions are to assert their sovereignty and be a part of a multi-lateral world. Unlike the Western imperialist powers: China doesn't go around enforcing structural adjustments as a precursor to things like economic development.

The United States is acting as an imperialist aggressor towards China (something that predates Trump of course). The genuine anti-imperialist stance is to oppose this US aggression, not to engage in some baseless false equivalency.

I don't understand this comment.

That said, fundamentally, they are the same. These are all regional/global powers vying for supremacy. None are interested in establishing a global order where workers have more power.Willfully ignoring China's actions is going to bring you right back to where we are now. Workers being exploited constantly, just under a different regime.

I'm saying that China and the Western imperialist powers engage in the world very differently. This idea that they're all "just the same" just isn't accurate.

[Rancid]

China doesn't go around enforcing structural adjustments as a precursor to things like economic development.

You sure about that? Check out all the debt and port deals they've done in African and South Asia. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if their belt and road initiative is full of unfavorable shit to the workers of all the nations they are pulling in for that.

baseless false equivalency.

I disagree. Though, I would phrase it as, there is more equivalence than not, and ultimately just as much insidiousness as the west.

I'm saying that China and the Western imperialist powers engage in the world very differently. This idea that they're all "just the same" just isn't accurate.

Engage the world differently, yes, but fundamentally, they are after the same thing (millitary and economic supremacy). Thus, they are the same in the end.

By the way, I do not expect you to change you mind on any of this.

[KurtFF8]

You sure about that? Check out all the debt and port deals they've done in African and South Asia.

Yes, even the New York Times points out that this is largely overblown and right wing rhetoric.

Based on the findings of both institutes, it seems that the risks of B.R.I. are often overstated or mischaracterized.

Take Africa. The International Monetary Fund estimates that as of late January some 17 low-income African countries already were in, or were at risk of, “debt distress,” or of experiencing difficulties in servicing their public debt. We at the China Africa Research Initiative created debt profiles for those countries based on our data on Chinese loans as well as statistics from the World Bank and the I.M.F. — and we discovered that a crowd of global banks and bondholders were involved: notably, in Mozambique, Credit Suisse; or in Chad, the Anglo-Swiss mining giant Glencore. In some of the 17 countries the I.M.F. identified as vulnerable, including Cameroon and Ethiopia, China was the single-largest creditor, but non-Chinese lenders still held the majority of the debt. Only in Djibouti, the Republic of Congo and Zambia did Chinese loans account for half or more of the country’s public debt.

I disagree. Though, I would phrase it as, there is more equivalence than not.

Not in any real meaningful way though.

Engage the world differently, yes, but fundamentally, the same, yes.

By the way, I do not expect you to change you mind on any of this.

This just doesn't hold water when you look at what's actually going on in the world.

[Sivad]

I agree, they are not...yet. That doesn't mean it's ok to excuse their obvious imperialistic behaviors and openly stated ambitions either. By ignoring/excusing China's actions, you will just end up with another empire once the US is pushed out. If you are really anti-imperialist, you would be against current empires and potential raising empires (i.e. China). If the idea/hope is that once China supersedes the west, that they will establish some sort of international workers utopia, then that is a mistaken idea.


I don't understand this comment.

That said, fundamentally, they are the same. These are all regional/global powers vying for supremacy. None are interested in establishing a global order where workers have more power.Willfully ignoring China's actions is going to bring you right back to where we are now. Workers being exploited constantly, just under a different regime.

What part of any of that isn't completely obvious or in any way controversial? It's the indisputable in-your-face reality that's impossible to deny without coming off as either some kind of ludicrous shill or a hopelessly deluded ideologue.

[wat0n]

There isn't really a consensus on what to describe China. Maoists denounce China as"revisonist" and "imperialist," many Trotskyists claim it's "just capitalist," and everything in between including critical support.

But certainly, no Marxist would say socialism is simply state capitalism.

[Rancid]

Yes, even the New York Times points out that this is largely overblown and right wing rhetoric.






Not in any real meaningful way though.




This just doesn't hold water when you look at what's actually going on in the world.

I can concede that for the moment, no real issues/threats..... yet.

However, they are certainly planting the seeds, they are just starting to dip their toes in the imperialist game. Which, if successful (and they have the best chance at success than anyone else) we will be right back at square one, with a new power exploiting and fucking over workers. Just looking at what they are doing domestically, with censorship, citizen rating systems, and authoritarian control over various aspects of life. It doesn't look good. If they have no issues doing that to their own, imagine what they might do to everyone else.

I think at a minimum you should concede that there is certainly the potential for China to become another asshole empire, based on some of these early dealings they are doing, and their build up of their military.

[KurtFF8]

I can concede that for the moment, no real issues/threats..... yet.

However, they are certainly planting the seeds, they are just starting to dip their toes in the imperialist game. Which, if successful (and they have the best chance at success than anyone else) we will be right back at square one, with a new power exploiting and fucking over workers. Just looking at what they are doing domestically, with censorship, citizen rating systems, and authoritarian control over various aspects of life. It doesn't look good. If they have no issues doing that to their own, imagine what they might do to everyone else.

This is just a pretty typical Western liberal take on China. It's the "evil authoritarian scary" country. No different than the demonization of any other given target of US imperialism

I think at a minimum you should concede that there is certainly the potential for China to become another asshole empire, based on some of these early dealings they are doing, and their build up of their military.

There's nothing to concede here because it's really a non-point. The United States has the potential to engage in proletarian internationalism and anti-imperialist foreign policy all over the world, freeing the working class while combating the capitalist class. It would be foolish to believe that this is going to happen without a radical change in the US government. Similar with China: there's no real reason to believe that they're going to radically reorient their entire domestic and foreign structure in this way at this time.

[Rancid]

This is just a pretty typical Western liberal take on China. It's the "evil authoritarian scary" country. No different than the demonization of any other given target of US imperialism



There's nothing to concede here because it's really a non-point. The United States has the potential to engage in proletarian internationalism and anti-imperialist foreign policy all over the world, freeing the working class while combating the capitalist class. It would be foolish to believe that this is going to happen without a radical change in the US government. Similar with China: there's no real reason to believe that they're going to radically reorient their entire domestic and foreign structure in this way at this time.

ok

[annatar1914]

They haven't been for an extremely long time. Calling themselves socialist/communist is more of a marketing thing.

Anyway, I always say they are the world's best capitalist. They are playing that game better than anyone else. It's more like a state managed capitalism. They allow capitalism, so long as it aligns or doesn't interfere with state (CCP) goals and ambitions. The goals and ambitions are not communistic nor socialist. That's just wrapping paper. The goal is to restore the glory of China, which is a euphemism for establishing an empire with global reach/dominance. This is not conspiracy or a secret, Xi Jingping and the CCP say's shit like this all the time. It's not hard to find this and their actions around the globe, they don't hide much, I don't have to spoon feed evidence of all of this to intellectually lazy people like skinster who would just ignore it all anyway. This too is just a lazy "argument" technique lazy ass people like her use.

If someone claims to be anti-imperialist, then they should be against the actions of BOTH the US and China, not just the US. It's clear, these people are a bunch of fakers. As I always say, I never need or care for people to agree with me, but what I do need is for people to be consistent. Most if not all of the pofo people that claim to be anti-imperialist aren't consistent in this respect. It becomes clear when they bash the actions of the US or EU (which is totally fine to do so by the way), but then turn a blind eye, or even apologize for the actions of say Russia or China.

Sure, China want's ideally to be the major Superpower in the world and replace the United States and Russia in that regard, using them as resource extraction mines and export dumping grounds now and in the future, deftly exploiting the rivalries and fears of both to maintain a leading position.

And the ''Anti-Imperialists'' on PoFo? They usually are the biggest Imperialists, for alternative major powers that is. It doesn't fool me at all.

[Patrickov]

This is just a pretty typical Western liberal take on China. It's the "evil authoritarian scary" country. No different than the demonization of any other given target of US imperialism

Under this definition, are Hongkongers, Taiwanese, South Koreans and Japanese (the latter two to a lesser extent) Western Liberals?

There's nothing to concede here because it's really a non-point. The United States has the potential to engage in proletarian internationalism and anti-imperialist foreign policy all over the world, freeing the working class while combating the capitalist class. It would be foolish to believe that this is going to happen without a radical change in the US government. Similar with China: there's no real reason to believe that they're going to radically reorient their entire domestic and foreign structure in this way at this time.

This is factual. The changes mentioned above probably won't happen without the nations in concern losing a major war or two.

[Igor Antunov]

You sure about that? Check out all the debt and port deals they've done in African and South Asia. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if their belt and road initiative is full of unfavorable shit to the workers of all the nations they are pulling in for that.

I just did.



The China debt trap doesn't exist. As usual all western propaganda fantasy. Sri Lank port was given on lease because it was the will of sri lankas government to do so. They didn't have to. Probably as a bonus gift for all the weapons china provided the government with which it smashed the tamils.

For every 1 example of Chinese creditors coming after defunct debtors, you can find 100 western examples. It's the private western creditors that are the biggest culprits, buying up western government accrued African debts for a pittance then imposing draconian penalties via the western monetary systems. China just flat out unconditionally wiped clean ALL African debts a couple months back. ALL OF THEM.

https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-22/C ... index.html

[skinster]

This is not conspiracy or a secret, Xi Jingping and the CCP say's shit like this all the time.

If true, I'm sure you could find at least one example to support your opinion. I've asked before and got no response. You needn't make crybaby shitposts when someone asks for evidence on a political issue, since we're on a political forum.

Given your crybaby shitpost, I'm just going to go ahead with what I believe about you since you're comfortable doing the same, and that thing is that you're absolutely full of shit and here to promote your brainwashed understanding of China because your Chinese wife hates China and you believe the brainwashing news about China from your country that continues to be the greatest purveyor of violence in the world, something you mostly ignore, but more on that below.

It's not hard to find this and their actions around the globe, they don't hide much, I don't have to spoon feed evidence of all of this to intellectually lazy people like skinster who would just ignore it all anyway. This too is just a lazy "argument" technique lazy ass people like her use.

You have never presented evidence for any of the opinions. Apparently you're the intellectual and not-lazy guy in the room.

If someone claims to be anti-imperialist, then they should be against the actions of BOTH the US and China, not just the US. It's clear, these people are a bunch of fakers. As I always say, I never need or care for people to agree with me, but what I do need is for people to be consistent. Most if not all of the pofo people that claim to be anti-imperialist aren't consistent in this respect. It becomes clear when they bash the actions of the US or EU (which is totally fine to do so by the way), but then turn a blind eye, or even apologize for the actions of say Russia or China.

You should really look up what the word imperialism means and what that entails, before calling countries you don't like "imperialist".

And if you were serious about opposition to imperialism, you'd be commenting in the various threads on this board where I give updates on countries under imperialist attack. But you don't because you're not serious in opposition to imperialism but for some strange reason are opposed to imperialism where there is none (China). And you think you're consistent how?

You're doing a good job of feeding that stereotype some have of Americans being dumb. Thank you for your service.

[Patrickov]

This just doesn't hold water when you look at what's actually going on in the world.

Maybe you can explain how you see things are actually going on in the world.

It is highly possible that Member Rancid's knowledge of the things "actually going on" is similar to you, and just he sees it differently from you do.

[Patrickov]

I just did.

Source of this figure? Maybe the maker of this chart is himself a Chinese apologist and he twisted the definition of the creditor's origin to make China look good.

[KurtFF8]

Maybe you can explain how you see things are actually going on in the world.

It is highly possible that Member Rancid's knowledge of the things "actually going on" is similar to you, and just he sees it differently from you do.

I posted an article that details Chinese loan actions on the continent of Africa that contradicts this popular narrative of "Chinese imperialism." I think that's a good start for folks looking to learn more about the topic.

[skinster]

[Rugoz]

Source of this figure? Maybe the maker of this chart is himself a Chinese apologist and he twisted the definition of the creditor's origin to make China look good.

I don't get where that comes from either.

Here are some recent numbers. Creditors’ debt stock in Africa’s DSSI-eligible countries, 2018:



Projected Debt Service in DSSI-Eligible African Countries, 2020-2024



DSSI refers to the G20's Debt Service Suspension Initiative. 38 African countries in total.

Source for the above:
https://thediplomat.com/2020/08/china-t ... -of-words/

China just flat out unconditionally wiped clean ALL African debts a couple months back. ALL OF THEM.

https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-22/C ... index.html

Can this muh chynah debt trap meme die now?

This is of course total nonsense and your source doesn't provide a single number. Typical alt-right lying and shit.

Most likely it refers to China's contribution to the DSSI.
https://www.ft.com/content/6900c595-151 ... e9967b7999

[QatzelOk]

This is just a pretty typical Western liberal take on China. It's the "evil authoritarian scary" country. No different than the demonization of any other given target of US imperialism.

The very best demonization of for'ners was provided by Unthinking Majority.

The CCP is building a fast-rising industrial economy among the most powerful in the world, led by a brutal totalitarian dictatorship driven by national rejuvenation, bent on global dominance, fosters extreme nationalism supported by intense propaganda, brutally suppresses dissent, commits genocide against minority ethnicities, has the largest # of active military personnel in the world, doesn't abide by international agreements or law, and helped by naive western governments who appease them.

Where have I heard this before?

Maybe it was when Ronald Reagan was comparing the tiny island of Grenada to Nazi Germany?

[Patrickov]

I posted an article that details Chinese loan actions on the continent of Africa that contradicts this popular narrative of "Chinese imperialism." I think that's a good start for folks looking to learn more about the topic.

Admittedly, China applies imperialistic policies (actually worse than that, if I have to say) at places closer to their borders than farther away places.

This is what you get for inheriting an empire not necessarily built by your race. Han Chinese had been 2nd in command -- after Manchus -- for some places like Xinjiang, Tibet and Mongolia (It is a surprise to many Westerners, but Tibet was actually the closest to China among the three. It had been a loyal tributary or even a semi-integral part of China for the best part of the last millennium, until the Communists assert themselves that is), so the question of Chinese "land integrity" focuses a lot on these three places.

What makes China "stand out" is that they are capable of alienating a good chunk of their own race who happen to be not under direct Communist rule, in this case Taiwanese and Hongkongers, and make them declare themselves a "different race". (I personally think it is bullshit to use this narrative to justify call for independence -- Europeans have been fully capable to set up multiple countries out of the same race -- for example, Germans effectively set up three: Germany / Austria and Switzerland. The United States' independence from Great Britain is also a good example)

[QatzelOk]

However, they are certainly planting the seeds, they are just starting to dip their toes in the imperialist game. Which, if successful (and they have the best chance at success than anyone else) we will be right back at square one, with a new power exploiting and fucking over workers. Just looking at what they are doing domestically, with censorship, citizen rating systems, and authoritarian control over various aspects of life. It doesn't look good. If they have no issues doing that to their own, imagine what they might do to everyone else.

I think at a minimum you should concede that there is certainly the potential for China to become another asshole empire, based on some of these early dealings they are doing, and their build up of their military.

As Igor did a few posts back, I am going to stress the important difference between China's public banking system, AND the private for-profit banking systems of the USA, British Empire, Roman Empire and Greek Empire. I think that it's really the banking systems of the latter kind (for profit) that caused most of the death and destruction of empire.

So China at least has a banking system that isn't cannibalistic.

Cannibalistic banking is the primary cause of empire building.

China's banking system doesn't work the same way.