Why I'm no longer a Marxist - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15127969
ckaihatsu wrote:

Oh, okay, so you're bourgeois-historically-progressive, then, meaning that you're all for *equity* capital (which organizes production), but you're critical of *rentier* capital (which is *non-productive* and feudal-like).


No I hate capitalism almost as much as I hate your brand of fake socialism, I was just pointing out that what you were saying was wrong.




*Or* it could be called 'deflation' since that's the result it brings -- a *glut* of savings that *reduces* the face-value of all of it. I'd also call it the *balkanization* of savings, as into offshore tax havens, which means it's *non-circulating*, and, ironically, the government has to use *public funds* for liquidity to underwrite bad loans and stock market crashes, propping up 'zombie companies' in the process. No wonder I'm a socialist.


You're not a socialist and I don't call it "deflation", I call it theft.
#15127972
Sivad wrote:
The real economy concerns the production, purchase and flow of goods and services (like oil, bread and labour) within an economy. It is contrasted with the financial economy, which concerns the aspects of the economy that deal purely in transactions of fiat money and other financial assets, which represent ownership or claims to ownership of real sector goods and services.



ckaihatsu wrote:
Oh, okay, so you're bourgeois-historically-progressive, then, meaning that you're all for *equity* capital (which organizes production), but you're critical of *rentier* capital (which is *non-productive* and feudal-like).



Sivad wrote:
No I hate capitalism almost as much as I hate your brand of fake socialism, I was just pointing out that what you were saying was wrong.



Well, this is certainly news to me -- skinster said you were a Trump supporter.

So far, from what *I* can see, you've just been *contrarian* for the most part -- time to build up *your own* political capital, instead of just tearing-down *others'*.

How am I a 'fake' socialist, according to you?


---


ckaihatsu wrote:
*Or* it could be called 'deflation' since that's the result it brings -- a *glut* of savings that *reduces* the face-value of all of it. I'd also call it the *balkanization* of savings, as into offshore tax havens, which means it's *non-circulating*, and, ironically, the government has to use *public funds* for liquidity to underwrite bad loans and stock market crashes, propping up 'zombie companies' in the process. No wonder I'm a socialist.



Sivad wrote:
You're not a socialist and I don't call it "deflation", I call it theft.



Okay, that's fine -- I agree with that because rentier capital (cash, assets, all non-productive) only claims *interest* and *rents*, while not-producing anything. It's feudal-like.

How am I not a socialist, according to you?
#15127980
ckaihatsu wrote: skinster said


skinster says all kinds of stupid shit so I wouldn't put too much stock in what skinster said.

you were a Trump supporter


oh, I'm definitely voting Trump, I'm voting Republican straight down the ticket, but that doesn't mean I'm like ideologically alligned with those fuckers. It's strategic, it's like accelerationists voting Trump, you can't really call them Trump supporters because they fucking hate Trump, it's just pure political calculus with them.

So far, from what *I* can see, you've just been *contrarian* for the most part -- time to build up *your own* political capital, instead of just tearing-down *others'*.


I don't think an ism or system is necessary, It's perfectly possible to navigate via negation. Why not let all the stupidity and insanity that's all around me light my way? If you know what not to do you don't really need a big elaborate system.


How am I a 'fake' socialist, according to you?


You're a collectivist and an authoritarian, both are antithetical to socialism.
#15127981
ckaihatsu wrote:
So far, from what *I* can see, you've just been *contrarian* for the most part -- time to build up *your own* political capital, instead of just tearing-down *others'*.



Sivad wrote:
I don't think an ism or system is necessary, It's perfectly possible to navigate via negation. Why not let all the stupidity and insanity that's all around me light my way? If you know what not to do you don't really need a big elaborate system.



'Negation' is too simplistic -- that's why I call you a 'contrarian' because it's just a knee-jerk response, and not cognizant of the bigger picture.


ckaihatsu wrote:
How am I a 'fake' socialist, according to you?



ckaihatsu wrote:
You're a collectivist and an authoritarian, both are antithetical to socialism.



No, you're actually describing the socialist *transition*, using a *workers state*, to fully-post-capitalist *communism*, which would also be post-authoritarian.

This can also be called 'vanguardist' since the workers-state hierarchy / authority would have to be as broad-based and commanding as possible, to defeat the bourgeois class foe.

Once humanity has transcended bourgeois class rule the vanguard itself would no longer be relevant and humanity as a whole could collectively self-organize as it sees fit -- communism.

I can address both the transitional part, and the post-capitalist part, in diagrams:


[7] Syndicalism-Socialism-Communism Transition Diagram

Spoiler: show
Image



Emergent Central Planning

Spoiler: show
Image
#15127985
ckaihatsu wrote:Once humanity has transcended


Ok, now I understand, you only want to gulag everyone for their own transcendent good. I get it now. I guess I had you all wrong.
#15127989
Sivad wrote:
Ok, now I understand, you only want to gulag everyone for their own transcendent good. I get it now. I guess I had you all wrong.



'Gulaging', as I've mentioned before, is only potentially a *tactic*, and not an *ideology* unto itself.

You keep trying to make it sound as though revolutionaries (like myself) are in it for the *gulaging*, like a political-criminal threat to the public, which is actually *slanderous* since you're just hurling *accusations* and not bothering to understand where I'm coming from, politically.

I *don't* want to 'gulag' people, I want to end capitalism and have workers-of-the-world *socialism*, and then fully-automated luxury communism.
#15127999
ckaihatsu wrote:'Gulaging', as I've mentioned before, is only potentially a *tactic*, and not an *ideology* unto itself.

You keep trying to make it sound as though revolutionaries (like myself) are in it for the *gulaging*, like a political-criminal threat to the public, which is actually *slanderous* since you're just hurling *accusations* and not bothering to understand where I'm coming from, politically.

I *don't* want to 'gulag' people, I want to end capitalism and have workers-of-the-world *socialism*, and then fully-automated luxury communism.


I think most of you are in it for the gulaging but maybe there a few well meaning but woefully misgided idiots that truly believe they can gulag their way to societal transcendence, it doesn't matter though because gulaging society is a psychotic maniac proposition that reasonable people just aren't willing to entertain.
#15128000
Sivad wrote:
I think most of you are in it for the gulaging but maybe there a few well meaning but woefully misgided idiots that truly believe they can gulag their way to societal transcendence, it doesn't matter though because gulaging society is a psychotic maniac proposition that reasonable people just aren't willing to entertain.



I'll talk to the others.


= D
#15128047
Sivad wrote:gulaging

Uber capitalist America has the highest prison population rate in the world, at 716 per 100,000 people. While the United States represents about 4.4 percent of the world's population, it houses around 22 percent of the world's prisoners.


:lol:
#15128048
ingliz wrote:Uber capitalist America has the highest prison population rate in the world, at 716 per 100,000 people. While the United States represents about 4.4 percent of the world's population, it houses around 22 percent of the world's prisoners.


:lol:


Actually communist Cuba has the highest incarceration rate in the world but even if that was true your point would still be reatarded because the US isn't a gulag society.

You can't even make a good point, everything you type is just wrong and stupid.
#15128052
Sivad wrote:the US isn't a gulag society

Define 'a gulag society'.

communist Cuba has the highest incarceration rate in the world

Michigan has a higher incarceration rate than Cuba and Michigan's prison population isn't a patch on Louisiana's whose rate stands at 1,341 people per 100,000.


:lol:
Last edited by ingliz on 17 Oct 2020 16:10, edited 1 time in total.
#15128053
ingliz wrote:Define 'a gulag society'.


A totalitarian police state with no regard for basic human rights.


The states...

Even Michigan has a higher incarceration rate than Cuba and Michigan's prison population isn't a patch on Louisiana's whose rate stands at 1,341 people per 100,000.


:lol:


I don't have a problem breaking it down by region, I'm sure if Cuba or China had honest statistics there are plenty of regions within both that have double Louisiana's rate.

It's always stupid talking with you, guy.
#15128054
Sivad wrote:A totalitarian police state

Don't you find it odd that your totalitarian police states lock up less people than the land of the free?

Maybe... perhaps... is it possible... America has less 'freedom' than these gulag societies.


:eh:
#15128055
ingliz wrote:Don't you find it odd that totalitarian police states lock up less people than the land of the free?


Not really, they just fucking lie about how many people they got locked up. What happens to China's incarceration rate if we include the Uyghurs? I bet just that group alone pushes China's rate significantly higher than the US rate.

Maybe... perhaps... is it possible... America has less 'freedom' than these gulag societies.


No, that's just impossibly stupid nonsense.
#15128056
One interesting fact about US incarceration is the US doesn't lock up more people, plenty of countries lock up more people annually, the US just gives longer sentences so it has the highest rate per 100,000 because its prison population grows faster over time. The US locks up far fewer people than a lot of countries but because of the lengthy sentences it has a larger prison population.
#15128062
The US however like Nazi Germany, like Soviet Russia and like Maoist China does torture and imprison people for life without due process. Khalid Sheik Mohammed and others. Liberals seem to get very upset with Trump , because he doesn't make the right virtue signalling noises, but Obama, Trump and corrupt Joe Biden all stand shoulder to shoulder when it comes to KSM's imprisonment.

I'm particularly interested in why Liberals across the western world oppose KSM's release and compensation. There argument seems to be that KSM is not a Muslim, and committed the most heinous crime someone can commit, which is to bring Islam into disrepute by pretending to be a Muslim. Therefore he doesn't deserve due process.
#15128063
You conveniently forget that most people criticized Obama, heavily, for not keeping his promise about shutting down Guantanamo. That said, the Republicans before him didn't care any less about it.

If they are in the US justice system, they deserve due process or the whole system is no less questionable than prisons in 3rd world countries where they have no due process.
#15128082
ingliz wrote:
Uber capitalist America has the highest prison population rate in the world, at 716 per 100,000 people. While the United States represents about 4.4 percent of the world's population, it houses around 22 percent of the world's prisoners.


:lol:



ingliz wrote:
the land of the free



Nationalist marketing.
#15128083
Sivad wrote:One interesting fact about US incarceration is the US doesn't lock up more people, plenty of countries lock up more people annually, the US just gives longer sentences so it has the highest rate per 100,000 because its prison population grows faster over time. The US locks up far fewer people than a lot of countries but because of the lengthy sentences it has a larger prison population.

So that's alright then. :)

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