Armenia and Azerbaijan mobilize for war - Page 5 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15126437
Crantag wrote:That seemed very one-sided (pro-Armenia partisan) and propagandistic.

On the factual front, the main question I had was how they portrayed the residence of Nargona Karabakh as welcoming Armenian invasion in the early 1990s war. I don't doubt that a contingency of Armenians living there would have welcomed an invasion, but I question the scope of these sentiments among the residents, as my understanding is that the majority of the current residents side with Azerbaijan. Again, this is my understanding, I am not certain. But anyone should be able to recognize the slanted nature of that video, which is the general way of Western media foreign conflict coverage. I have no doubt that ABC News was given the script by the Pentagon.


There was no "Armenian invasion of Nagorno Karabakh (NK)". The historical overview presents the Armenian view, but there is no doubt that NK has been Armenian for centuries. They are the natives of NK. If Azerbaijan were to conquer NK, the natives would be killed or expelled. You have the choice between ethnic cleansing and genocide. Considering that Turkey never recognized the genocide of more than 1 million Armenians a century ago, it is totally unacceptable that the Turks now promote a 2nd genocide. It's as if Germany were to bombard Israel to finish the holocaust.

The Soviet Administration treated NK as part of the autonomous region of Azerbaijan, but that is an internal Soviet matter that creates no precedent for international law. Immediately after the collapse of the SU, the citizens of NK fought for independence. Without the SU, the Armenians of NK wanted to be independent just like the Azerbaijanis wanted to be independent. Why accept independence for the latter but not for the former?

Due to its oil resources, Azerbaijan has a lot more firepower, but Armenia has the international opinion on its side because:

1) Armenians were the victims of a genocide still denied by Turkey.
2) The Armenian diaspora that grew up as a result of the genocide has a powerful voice.
3) Turkey sparked this round of fighting in its imperialistic neo-Ottoman project.
4) Turkey sent jet fighters and Islamist fighters to the conflict.
5) Azerbaijan is a dictatorships while Armenia is a democracy.
6) International media can only report from Armenia. Turkish media reports from Azerbaijan, but Turkey has no press freedom either.
7) This is one of the last remaining Christian enclaves in the region which still resists capture by Islamist fighters. One doesn't have to be Christian to disapprove of violent Islamist conquest.

I'm impartial in this conflict. I believe that Azerbaijan needs to accept the independence of NK in exchange for Azerbaijani territory occupied by Armenia. Both sides also need to accept corridors for the citizens of the other side to travel between the mainland and their respective enclaves surrounded by the other side.

Image
#15127619
By sending Syrian fighters to Azerbaijan, Turkey has linked the conflicts in the Caucasus and Syria where Russian and Turkish troops oppose each other. This may well be one of Erdogan's biggest foreign policy blunder. Sending the Syrian fighters won't decide the war but it is bound to draw Russia into the conflict.

While Russia is still maintaining neutrality in the Caucasus, it has hit Turkish proxy forces in Syria real hard:

Powerful Russian bombing of terrorist camps preparing for the Nagorno-Karabakh war

BulgarianMilitary.com continues to monitor what is happening in the Caucasus region and the fierce clashes between the Armenian and Azerbaijani military. According to the latest information from Russian news agencies, Russian bombers struck powerful training camps at Syrian mercenaries.

According to local sources who share photos of the Russian strikes, the explosions were so powerful that they were seen tens of kilometers away. Military observers in the Idlib area say the bombings were consistent and lasted a total of 15 minutes. Analysts say that after such actions by any air force, the dead would be within 150-200 soldiers.

Russia’s ANNA news agency confirmed the news by posting photos of a Russian attack on training terrorist camps.

Analyzing the data from September 27 so far, BulgarianMilitary.com came to the conclusion that the Russian Air Force has bombed a total of three similar camps on the territory of Syria, directly related to the events in Nagorno-Karabakh. However, military experts claim that this is the first time that Russia has carried out such large-scale and powerful air strikes.

A number of experts say Russia has so far managed to kill about 400 Syrian mercenaries and terrorists heading for the events in Nagorno-Karabakh, at a time when they were in training camps.

War in Syria

In February, Turkey lost at least 62 troops killed in Syria, nearly 100 soldiers were wounded, dozens of Turkish armored vehicles were destroyed and more than ten drones, including drone, were shot down. Washington has repeatedly accused Moscow of involvement in the deaths of Turkish soldiers, Russia rejects these allegations.

In early March, the presidents of Russia and Turkey, Vladimir Putin and Recep Tayyip Erdogan, concluded an agreement according to which a ceasefire came into force in the Idlib de-escalation zone.

Syrian President Bashar al-Assad later said that if the US and Turkish military did not leave the country, Damascus would be able to use force.


While the Russian-brokered truce has been violated by heavy shelling from both sides, Russia is increasing its involvement in the conflict as I predicted. Lavrov has offered to send Russian peace-keepers to the region.

Lavrov Calls for Deployment of Russian Peacekeepers in Nagorno-Karabakh as Tensions Escalate
#15128101
One cannot fool anybody better than fooling himself.

And deep-freezing problems never make them disappear in due course of time.

Armenians are the victim of nothing but their own stupidity.

They thought that Azerbaijanis would forget what happened in early 90s and would let it go. They would not. They could not. No other nation could.

What happened in early 90s?

Nearly half a million Azeris, 43,000 from Nagorno-Karabakh, ~450,000 from seven counties neighboring Nagorno-Karabakh, were uprooted from their homes to create a "lebensraum" for ~150k Armenians.

Image

However persistent some may be in repeating the right of self determination Karabakh Armenians, the ghost Azeri towns of Agdam, Fuzuli, Jabrayil, Soltanli and many more are still there to see for anybody using Google satellite maps.

Long story short: The day of judgement is upon Armenians. And refugees uprooted from their towns and villages by Armenian invaders shall return back to their homes.

Period.

My only hope is that the liberation of occupied territories is completed fast with minimum bloodshed and Nagorno-Karabakh once again becomes an autonomous republic within Azerbaijan where both Armenian and Azeri locals live side by side in peace.

P.S.
Both in media as well as here under this thread, the war between Armenia and Azerbaijan is somehow portrayed as a war between Turkey and Armenia, because Azeris are believed to be uncapable of fighting. Even funnier that Turkey is accused of bringing Syrian mercenaries to fight Armenians on behalf of Azeris.

Last time I looked, Azerbaijan was at least 3 times more populous than Armenia. Azerbaijan economy was at least 6 times bigger than that of Armenia. Azeri defense budget during past decade has been consistently on par with whole state budget of Armenia.

Azerbaijan has more than enough manpower, money and advanced weapons. Why would they need some sort of external "magic touch" to beat Armenia in the battlefield? :roll:
#15128129
@Vanasalus, it always takes two to tango. While it may be true that Armenia didn't make enough concessions in returning Azerbaijani districts, it is also true that Azerbaijan didn't make enough concessions in not agreeing to NK independence. You aren't even allowed to visit Azerbaijan if you have an Armenian visa in your passport. There is no way the Armenians in NK can live under the Baku dictatorship. It would be ethnic cleansing or another genocide of the Armenians. Turkey has shown that it doesn't mind ethnic cleansing in Afrin and other parts of Syria occupied by your terrorist proxy forces.

There is no doubt that Turkey triggered the current round of fighting. Erdogan doesn't even hide that fact. While all other parties urge for a ceasefire, only Turkey wants the fighting to continue. And yes, it is related to the Turkish genocide of the Armenian people. Even as we are speaking, Armenians in Turkey have to live in fear of aggression by Turkish nationalists with ultra-nationalists convoys driving through Armenian neighborhoods in Istanbul with flags and honking cars. Try that shit in Belfast and you got a civil war on your hand.

And before you spread AKP propaganda in this forum you should remind the forum that press freedom no longer exists in Turkey and in Azerbaijan. I remember you as a reasonable poster, it's scary how you have turned full jingoist.
#15128136
Vanasalus wrote:Long story short: The day of judgement is upon Armenians. And refugees uprooted from their towns and villages by Armenian invaders shall return back to their homes.

Period.

My only hope is that the liberation of occupied territories is completed fast with minimum bloodshed and Nagorno-Karabakh once again becomes an autonomous republic within Azerbaijan where both Armenian and Azeri locals live side by side in peace.


If that is the final truth, we are pretty much all dead. There have been many victims in history, far more than victors.

You start a conflict (or rather heat it up an existing one) in order to leverage this into geopolitical points. You could look to Syria to why that might not be a great idea for anyone involved.

If Armenians and Azeris are going to live side by side, there has to be a lot of forgiveness. That is not easy. Not in Northern Ireland or Yugoslavia or South Africa or even f-king Germany where there is still a massive divide between East and West.

:knife:
#15128144
Vanasalus wrote:One cannot fool anybody better than fooling himself.

And deep-freezing problems never make them disappear in due course of time.

Armenians are the victim of nothing but their own stupidity.

They thought that Azerbaijanis would forget what happened in early 90s and would let it go. They would not. They could not. No other nation could.

What happened in early 90s?

Nearly half a million Azeris, 43,000 from Nagorno-Karabakh, ~450,000 from seven counties neighboring Nagorno-Karabakh, were uprooted from their homes to create a "lebensraum" for ~150k Armenians.

Image

However persistent some may be in repeating the right of self determination Karabakh Armenians, the ghost Azeri towns of Agdam, Fuzuli, Jabrayil, Soltanli and many more are still there to see for anybody using Google satellite maps.

Long story short: The day of judgement is upon Armenians. And refugees uprooted from their towns and villages by Armenian invaders shall return back to their homes.

Period.

My only hope is that the liberation of occupied territories is completed fast with minimum bloodshed and Nagorno-Karabakh once again becomes an autonomous republic within Azerbaijan where both Armenian and Azeri locals live side by side in peace.

P.S.
Both in media as well as here under this thread, the war between Armenia and Azerbaijan is somehow portrayed as a war between Turkey and Armenia, because Azeris are believed to be uncapable of fighting. Even funnier that Turkey is accused of bringing Syrian mercenaries to fight Armenians on behalf of Azeris.

Last time I looked, Azerbaijan was at least 3 times more populous than Armenia. Azerbaijan economy was at least 6 times bigger than that of Armenia. Azeri defense budget during past decade has been consistently on par with whole state budget of Armenia.

Azerbaijan has more than enough manpower, money and advanced weapons. Why would they need some sort of external "magic touch" to beat Armenia in the battlefield? :roll:


It is a complicated topic, but long story short. Armenians are there and are not genociding the other side although the other side was genociding Armenians in the 90s. Now, Azerbaijan is not a democratic government and can't really be trusted with anything. If Azerbaijan becomes democratic, heck, even more trustworthy without becoming democratic then NK could have been returned. The reason why there were no progress is because Azerbaijani government is basically a dictatorial government who wouldn't blink an eye to Armenian genocide if it increased their popularity by 0.01%. The current "counter-offensive" action is an example of that.
#15128149
Vanasalus wrote:Azerbaijan has more than enough manpower, money and advanced weapons. Why would they need some sort of external "magic touch" to beat Armenia in the battlefield? :roll:

That's a good question indeed, thanks for asking. If you think about it, then you may draw a conclusion that the whole idea of this conflict may have come from Ankara actually, as Erdogan's been the busy bee for a while, and Azerbaijan's just a pawn here this time.
#15128209
Vanasalus wrote:Last time I looked, Azerbaijan was at least 3 times more populous than Armenia. Azerbaijan economy was at least 6 times bigger than that of Armenia. Azeri defense budget during past decade has been consistently on par with whole state budget of Armenia.

Azerbaijan has more than enough manpower, money and advanced weapons. Why would they need some sort of external "magic touch" to beat Armenia in the battlefield? :roll:


The Baku dictatorship isn't popular in Azerbaijan. Body bags coming back from the front in great numbers could topple the dictatorship. That's why it makes sense to use Syrian fighters as cannon fodder.

There is no doubt that Turkey triggered the current round of fighting. That Azerbaijan has oil reserves is just an added reason for Turkey to get involved.

Turkey's military adventures abroad doesn't make Turkey stronger. It won't resurrect the Ottoman empire. Quite on the contrary, it creates a backlash against Turkey in the countries that once were part of the Ottoman empire. Politics is dynamic. It doesn't follow the simplistic and static ideas of Turkish nationalists. You'll end up achieving the opposite of what you intended: the campaign to boycott Turkish products gains momentum

The popular campaign boycotting Turkish products in Saudi Arabia has gained further momentum over the past few days, attracting the support of commentators and businesses.

Turkish political mess-ups and interference in countries of the Middle East is the real reason behind this popular boycott of Turkish products,” said Dr. Hamdan Al-Shehri, a political analyst and international relations scholar.

Turkish President Erdogan changed his previous policy of minimizing Turkish problems and instead exported it to the outside. Turkey has been threatening the region just as Iran is, using terrorist militias, spreading them in the countries of the region and by their support for the Brotherhood, which is classified as a terrorist organization in many countries of the world. This constitutes a regional security threat to the Arab countries and the Gulf states directly, especially with Turkey’s exploitation of the Qatari crisis and the continuous auctions of the Palestinian cause.

Dr. Al-Shehri said that the popular boycott of Turkish products was a message from the Saudi people and others who were in solidarity with the campaign to reject Turkish interventions and Turkish hostility toward the countries of the region, such as their interference in the issue of the rotation of the Two Holy Mosques and interventions in Iraq, Syria and Libya. ...
#15128214
Baku's military operation to retake its invaded territory is consistent with the international community. Nagorno Karabakh is officially an Azerbaijani territory. Azerbaijan just want to get back its territories. Armenians should pull off peacefully.

Turkey's position is meaningful and right. We are all Turkish. We have the same ethnicity. We speak same language. It is "one nation, two states".
#15128238
Turkey's position is meaningful and right. We are all Turkish. We have the same ethnicity. We speak same language. It is "one nation, two states".


Nonsense. The same is true of the US and Canada. We were once at war too. That does not give us the right to invade Canada.
#15128251
Istanbuller wrote:Baku's military operation to retake its invaded territory is consistent with the international community. Nagorno Karabakh is officially an Azerbaijani territory. Azerbaijan just want to get back its territories. Armenians should pull off peacefully.

Turkey's position is meaningful and right. We are all Turkish. We have the same ethnicity. We speak same language. It is "one nation, two states".


Ethnic Armenians have been living in Artsakh for centuries before Azeris came into the area. As usual, Turanian and Islamic aggression; the drive to try to loot and conquer remains strong.
#15129642
Azerbaijan, Turkey and Israel need to be condemned by the international community for using (or assisting the use of) illegal cluster ammunitions to target residential areas. Targeting civilians with cluster ammunition is a low as it gets in modern warfare. There is no military aim. The aim is to terrorize the native population of Nagorno Karabakh for ethnically cleansing the region.

Azerbaijan: Cluster Munitions Used in Nagorno-Karabakh

Azerbaijan has repeatedly used widely banned cluster munitions in residential areas in Nagorno-Karabakh, Human Rights Watch said today. During an on-site investigation in Nagorno-Karabakh in October 2020, Human Rights Watch documented four incidents in which Azerbaijan used cluster munitions.

Fighting between Azerbaijan and Armenia and the de-facto authorities in Nagorno-Karabakh dramatically escalated on September 27, 2020. Two humanitarian ceasefires brokered by members of the Minsk Group of the Organization for Security and Co-Operation in Europe have failed to halt the fighting. According to authorities from all parties, scores of civilians have been killed or injured in attacks in Armenia, Nagorno-Karabakh, and Azerbaijan.

“The continued use of cluster munitions – particularly in populated areas – shows flagrant disregard for the safety of civilians,” said Stephen Goose, arms division director at Human Rights Watch and chair of the Cluster Munition Coalition. “Cluster munitions should never be used by anyone under any circumstances, much less in cities, due to the foreseeable and unacceptable harm to civilians.”

...
#15130005
Atlantis wrote:Azerbaijan, Turkey and Israel need to be condemned by the international community for using (or assisting the use of) illegal cluster ammunitions to target residential areas. Targeting civilians with cluster ammunition is a low as it gets in modern warfare. There is no military aim. The aim is to terrorize the native population of Nagorno Karabakh for ethnically cleansing the region.


I thought Israel would have been anti-Turkey here, because Turkey are not friendly to Arab states and will side with Iran if a regional conflict arises?
#15130025
Patrickov wrote:I thought Israel would have been anti-Turkey here, because Turkey are not friendly to Arab states and will side with Iran if a regional conflict arises?


Israel has a history of conflict with Turkey. Turkey supports Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood, but Israel will never let an opportunity for exporting weapons go unused. Israel sells weapons to Azerbaijan for the money rather than for geopolitical reasons.
#15130030
Atlantis wrote:Israel has a history of conflict with Turkey. Turkey supports Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood, but Israel will never let an opportunity for exporting weapons go unused. Israel sells weapons to Azerbaijan for the money rather than for geopolitical reasons.


Israel's position means its geopolitical interest is essential to their survival. What you have said is effectively that some influential Israelis have been acting in serious breach of their own interest. I don't think this will go down well even inside Israel.
#15131243
That Armenians in Turkey are being threatened goes largely unreported because Erdogan has a tight control of media reporting in Turkey. But now genocidal Turks go after Armenians in France and other places. This needs to be exposed.

Scores of people, reportedly Turkish and Azerbaijani nationals, took to the streets of Lyon on Wednesday night, allegedly “looking for Armenians”, according to videos shared on social media.

In one video shared by an independent Armenian outlet, people can be seen marching in Lyon with Turkish flags and chanting the phrase "allahu akbar", meaning “God is the greatest”.

In the same piece of footage, a man can be heard saying in French: “Where are you Armenians? Where are you? We are here… sons of b*****s”.

The Independent Union of Police Commissioners (SICP) also shared footage from an incident in Vienne, a town located 35 kilometres (22 miles) south of Lyon.

The SICP said: “That evening at Vienne, Turks lead a punitive expedition in search of Armenians in the city. They cross paths with and attack a crew of the National Police of Isère. Our colleagues once again showed composure and courage in the face of 150 overexcited individuals.”




#15131809
Looks like Azerbaijan is making territorial gains. If they cut off Nagorno Karabakh from Armenia, that would be a heavy blow for Armenians. Another objective may to to connect to the Azeri enclave Nakhchivan. That would deprive Armenia of its border with Iran.

Armenians should have seen this coming for years. With Azeri oil revenues and Turkish expansionism, it was just a matter of time. They should either have prepared for war or made concessions at the negotiation table. Losing territory in the fighting is the worst possible outcome.

There seems to be heavy fighting. This is a real war. The figures given by both sides can't be trusted, but Putin was talking about 5,000 people killed in the fighting.

Armenia proper should be safe because of Russian security guarantees, but they may lose Nagorno Karabakh.

Peace talks by Russia, the US and France have failed. Turkey is in no position to serve as mediator. I think the EU should offer both sides preferred market access in exchange for a peaceful settlement. Armenians should know by now that they can't win on the battle field and Azerbaijan needs to sell its oil to Europe. That could provide an opening for a negotiated settlement.

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Film: Parts of a Circle: History of the Karabakh Conflict:

https://www.c-r.org/news-and-insight/fi ... h-conflict
#15134732
Azerbaijan liberates Shusha from 28 years long Armenian occupation

Azerbaijani army liberates key city of Shusha in Nagorno-Karabakh after 28 years of Armenian occupation, President Ilham Aliyev announced on Sunday.

"The adhan voice will be heard in Shusha after 28 years," Aliyev said in his announcement.

Gaining control of Shusha is a major victory for Azerbaijani forces, who have been making gains against Armenian separatist fighters since new fighting erupted over Nagorno-Karabakh a month ago.

https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/dip ... occupation

Another milestone. The light is seen at the end of gate. :cheers:
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Of cause this bullshit should be illegal.