Undocumented Aliens and Crime - Page 25 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15128132
Pants-of-dog wrote:So the rationale for breaking up families and arresting peaceful and hardworking undocumented migrants is because you need to punish sanctuary cities for not enforcing arbitrary immigration laws that hinder relationships within the city.

How is this supposed to be the more moral position?

Anytime anyone is ever sent to jail they are "breaking up families". But illegal immigrants aren't typically kept in jail, they're deported back to the country where they have legal status to be there.

Your argument is that if someone breaks the law, and then because they live with their kids or family they shouldn't suffer the punishments that are the consequences of their willful actions, for which they had informed consent to before they committed the crime?

You simply don't like the law because it's not in your own self-interests. That isn't justice, it's selfishness beyond any reason or justice or democracy. It's tyranny and colonialism. Justice isn't what's simply better for you. Let 10 million white Americans move to Mexico and see how quickly Latin Americans change their turn. Americans disrespected the law and democracy of many Latin Americans and their countries for many decades and they didn't seem to like it, for good reason, because it was injustice and tyranny and imperialism.
#15128141
Unthinking Majority wrote:Anytime anyone is ever sent to jail they are "breaking up families". But illegal immigrants aren't typically kept in jail, they're deported back to the country where they have legal status to be there.

Your argument is that if someone breaks the law, and then because they live with their kids or family they shouldn't suffer the punishments that are the consequences of their willful actions, for which they had informed consent to before they committed the crime?


Undocumented migrants in the US have broken no crime.

You simply don't like the law because it's not in your own self-interests. That isn't justice, it's selfishness beyond any reason or justice or democracy. It's tyranny and colonialism. Justice isn't what's simply better for you. Let 10 million white Americans move to Mexico and see how quickly Latin Americans change their turn. Americans disrespected the law and democracy of many Latin Americans and their countries for many decades and they didn't seem to like it, for good reason, because it was injustice and tyranny and imperialism.


This seems like an emotional outburst. Please understand why I will ignore it.
#15128153
Pants-of-dog wrote:Undocumented migrants in the US have broken no crime.

I've already shown you the specifc law they've broken. It's the reason ICE agents are allowed to arrest, detain, and deport them. Sometimes people ignore facts when they're inconvenient to them. Therefore this is an argument in bad faith, and will be ignored.
#15128159
Pants-of-dog wrote:So the rationale for breaking up families and arresting peaceful and hardworking undocumented migrants is because you need to punish sanctuary cities for not enforcing arbitrary immigration laws that hinder relationships within the city.

How is this supposed to be the more moral position?

You didn't bother to read the article, did you? If you had, you might have noticed this:

Among those was a 39-year-old from El Salvador who was arrested in Montgomery County, Maryland, on charges of sexually abusing a minor, but was released late last month in defiance of an ICE detainer request.

Also nabbed was a 28-year-old Mexican man, caught by ICE in Charlottesville, Virginia, after being released by the regional jail. The man had been deported once before and had been arrested for forgery, identity theft and driving without a license, but the jail ignored an ICE detainer request.

Overall, Homeland Security, said 84% of the new arrests had criminal convictions or pending charges, and each had been released by local authorities in defiance of an ICE request to be notified beforehand. (emphasis added)

And then there was this:
Mr. Wolf said if sanctuaries are trying to protect illegal immigrants, it’s backfiring.

If communities cooperated, it would mean turning over illegal immigrants with criminal records from prisons and jails.

Without that, ICE must send teams of officers out into communities — and they can then arrest other illegal immigrants they encounter while going after their targets.

“If communities and jurisdictions would simply cooperate with us, you would likely not see ICE in your communities,” Mr. Wolf said.
#15128162
Doug64 wrote:And the latest action by ICE involving Sanctuary Cities:

ICE sweeps through D.C., other sanctuary cities; more than 170 arrests

Note that the Sanctuary Cities' refusal to cooperate with ICE actually increases the odds of noncriminal undocumented aliens being picked up, since ICE might pick them up in the sweeps when they wouldn't if the criminals were turned over to them from the jails.

Dude it's 2020, laws don't matter anymore if you have virtue. Open rebellion is cool dude!
#15128177
All of this is just diversionary bullshit. Here is the nearly 100% solution:

Take the ICE agents who are whining about sanctuary cities and put them to work checking immigration status in businesses. Start with the largest and work down. In every business where you find an illegal alien charge the management for the crime of hiring them. Let the judge sort out their lame excuses about fake documents and such. Suspend their EIN (federal employer identification number) for the second offense. Within six months illegals will be flooding back across the border.

The wealthier ones, like doctors, engineers, and the like will leave first. They can afford to and what country does not want trained doctors, engineers and researchers? (Well the poorer of Trump supporters don't. The farm workers will go next. I am sure that Midwestern farmers will have no problem finding college students who want to pick their crops. For enough money I might even do it but you don't want to know what that number is. Hotels will have to shut down in some places until middle class white people can be found, trained and paid to do the maid's work. Problem. We have an excess of housing so losing a large percentage of construction workers won't hurt at all. Besides. Houses are supposed to cost a lot. (Oh wait. There is not excess of housing.) Well even better. Raising prices will spur demand.

No. This is just bullshit. Nobody in leadership on either side of this issue wants to run the overwhelming number of illegals out of the country. There are a few who have an irrational fear of Mexicans because they have bought into the absolutely bogus notion that illegals commit more crimes than citizens. (They don't and by a very significant margin fall just behind Asian immigrants in obeying the law.)

This issue is not and never has been about crime. It is about three things. First is the manipulating of some very shallow voters. Second it is about racism and xenophobia. And finally, and overwhelmingly it is about money. Fat cat republicans down to bed and breakfast owning democrats all want one thing more than they fear all of the above.....cheap, motivated and reliable labor. You will never see significant workplace enforcement which is the only solution that gets illegals to leave. The only one.

So Doug, you will be happy to be able to turn away from this red herring you want us to chase. It is based on a false premise and even the banning of sanctuary cities would do nothing to stop the problem of illegal immigration. But you just like to post the racist shit in an attempt to demonize all illegals. So keep it up. You love these stories.
#15128179
Unthinking Majority wrote:I've already shown you the specifc law they've broken.


No, you think you did, but you really need to reread our convo.

I pointed out that the two websites that you cited do not mention this supposed law you think they are breaking.

I did so here:
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=177184&start=440#p15122770

You never replied to it.

I now invite you to do so.

———————

@Doug64

I read both of those excerpts from your biased and questionable source.

Since I can do basic math, I know that the actual dangerous people they apprehended are a tiny minority of those caught in the web.

And I know an ad hoc rationalisation for immoral behaviour when I see one. And blaming the uncooperative authorities for actually focusing on criminals instead is an obvious bad attempt at trying to claim the moral high ground. No one forced ICE to do any of this.

—————————

More interesting than this racist Gish Gallop of a thread, we should ask some more practical and important questions:

Is undocumented migration a bad thing?

Who really suffers when there are negative impacts?

What are the actual causes of undocumented migration?

@Doug64, I invite you to answer these.
#15128187
Pants-of-dog wrote:@Doug64

I read both of those excerpts from your biased and questionable source.

You mean the source your preferred website rated less biased and no more questionable than CNN? Where I took apart the reasons for the website's judging it questionable and you didn't rebut? That source?

Since I can do basic math, I know that the actual dangerous people they apprehended are a tiny minority of those caught in the web.

To repost:

84% of the new arrests had criminal convictions or pending charges, and each had been released by local authorities in defiance of an ICE request to be notified beforehand.

I wouldn't call 84% a "tiny minority."

And I know an ad hoc rationalisation for immoral behaviour when I see one. And blaming the uncooperative authorities for actually focusing on criminals instead is an obvious bad attempt at trying to claim the moral high ground. No one forced ICE to do any of this.

Again, you apparently didn't read not only the article but my re-posted excerpt of it--that 84% with criminal convictions or cases pending had been released by the state and local governments that caught them, so the uncooperative authorities were hardly "actually focusing on criminals", other than ensuring that they can continue to prey on everyone else.

Is undocumented migration a bad thing?

Ask all the low-wage workers whose jobs have been lost or wages suppressed by the availability of undocumented alien workers.

Who really suffers when there are negative impacts?

The poor and blue-collar class--the fore-mentioned low-wage workers--that live here legally.

What are the actual causes of undocumented migration?

For the most part, work that pays more than what's available in their home countries, and a better standard of living.
#15128190
Pants-of-dog wrote:No, you think you did, but you really need to reread our convo.

I pointed out that the two websites that you cited do not mention this supposed law you think they are breaking.

I did so here:
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=177184&start=440#p15122770

You never replied to it.

I now invite you to do so.

Many have committed a crime, and this can lead to penalties like fines and prison time: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325

Breaking immigration law by entering legally and ie: overstaying your visa is illegal and therefore carries penalties such as deportation and being barred from re-entry. That's not a "federal crime" by definition, but if you break the law you're a criminal.
#15128230
Breaking immigration law by entering legally and ie: overstaying your visa is illegal and therefore carries penalties such as deportation and being barred from re-entry. That's not a "federal crime" by definition, but if you break the law you're a criminal.


You know that at the end of the day, all of this talk about who is a criminal and who is not is just academic. Meaningless.

Of course the FAR more serious offense in this area is that of hiring illegal aliens or harboring them:

Hiring illegal immigrants can lead to many severe penalties, such as:

Criminal and civil fines
Loss of business licenses

Most fines are broken down to the following:

First offenders can be fined $250-$2,000 per illegal employee.
For a second offense, the fine is $2,000-$5,000 per illegal employee.
Three or more offenses can cost an employer $3000-$10,000 per illegal employee. A pattern of knowingly employing illegal immigrants can mean extra fines and up to six months in jail for an employer.

This does not include “harboring” illegal immigrants, or employing ten or more illegal immigrants in one year. Harboring an illegal immigrant can lead to ten years of prison time.

Additionally, employers should be aware of the Racketeer Influenced Corrupt Organizations (RICO) Act. Employers can be sued under the act for hiring illegal immigrants, and can face large settlement deals.


You fucking so-called conservatives are such wimps. Such special snowflakes. Come on. Get some balls. Send ICE after the Waltons. Shut down all of the meat packing plants. I can't wait to see a Hilton in handcuffs awaiting trial for employing over 10 illegal maids. You pussies won't even make e-verify mandatory nation wide.

Nope. You are all just racists looking to blame someone else for depressed wages. It is far easier to blame illegals than the republican legislatures which refuse to raise minimum wage to a living level. It is easier to whine about the second amendment and join a militia so you can swagger around with a firearm to try to intimidate "liberals" than it is to man up and take on your own political party hacks who have sold out to business interests.

Do you folks realize just what cowards you look like? You are all up in the air about illegal immigration and want to build a zillion mile wall across the desert but can't even muster the courage raid a Motel 6? The laws have been on the books forever. Let's go. Get those ICE agents out of the local jail and into the construction sites. You want to get rid of "these people"? OK. Go for it.

Pussies.
#15128256
Doug64 wrote:You mean the source your preferred website rated less biased and no more questionable than CNN? Where I took apart the reasons for the website's judging it questionable and you didn't rebut? That source?


Again, this whole MSM (D) conspiracy theory of yours is boring.

To repost:


I wouldn't call 84% a "tiny minority."


Again, I mentioned people who are actually dangerous.. Your possibly lying source only mentioned one or two of those.

Again, you apparently didn't read not only the article but my re-posted excerpt of it--that 84% with criminal convictions or cases pending had been released by the state and local governments that caught them, so the uncooperative authorities were hardly "actually focusing on criminals", other than ensuring that they can continue to prey on everyone else.


Yes, you are assuming that all or most illegal migrants are criminals. This is the racism that I am pointing out in this thread. Your racist assumption is not a fact.

Ask all the low-wage workers whose jobs have been lost or wages suppressed by the availability of undocumented alien workers.


How many is that? Also, why do those jobs belong to those people?

The poor and blue-collar class--the fore-mentioned low-wage workers--that live here legally.


Please provide evidence for this claim.

For the most part, work that pays more than what's available in their home countries, and a better standard of living.


So then the solution is to make the US a developing country. And since you guys are already doing that, this should not be a problem in a few decades.

————————

Unthinking Majority wrote:Many have committed a crime, and this can lead to penalties like fines and prison time: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325

Breaking immigration law by entering legally and ie: overstaying your visa is illegal and therefore carries penalties such as deportation and being barred from re-entry. That's not a "federal crime" by definition, but if you break the law you're a criminal.


So you can not point to this supposed law that makes them criminals.

And so my point that they have no committed a crime is valid.
#15128295
Pants-of-dog wrote:So you can not point to this supposed law that makes them criminals.

And so my point that they have no committed a crime is valid.

I just did. Your claim has been invalidated: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325

U.S. Code § 1325 - Improper entry by alien

(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts

Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

(b) Improper time or place; civil penalties: Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to enter) the United States at a time or place other than as designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty of—
(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or attempted entry); or
(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under this subsection.
Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be imposed.

(c) Marriage fraud

Any individual who knowingly enters into a marriage for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or fined not more than $250,000, or both.
#15128301
Drlee wrote:You know that at the end of the day, all of this talk about who is a criminal and who is not is just academic. Meaningless.

I agree that labels are meaningless. Breaking the law isn't meaningless.

You fucking so-called conservatives are such wimps. Such special snowflakes. Come on. Get some balls. Send ICE after the Waltons. Shut down all of the meat packing plants. I can't wait to see a Hilton in handcuffs awaiting trial for employing over 10 illegal maids. You pussies won't even make e-verify mandatory nation wide.

Nope. You are all just racists looking to blame someone else for depressed wages. It is far easier to blame illegals than the republican legislatures which refuse to raise minimum wage to a living level. It is easier to whine about the second amendment and join a militia so you can swagger around with a firearm to try to intimidate "liberals" than it is to man up and take on your own political party hacks who have sold out to business interests.

Do you folks realize just what cowards you look like? You are all up in the air about illegal immigration and want to build a zillion mile wall across the desert but can't even muster the courage raid a Motel 6? The laws have been on the books forever. Let's go. Get those ICE agents out of the local jail and into the construction sites. You want to get rid of "these people"? OK. Go for it.

Pussies.

All laws need to be unheld. Employers acting illegally are a huge part of the problem and the laws need to be enforced and they need to be punished as per the laws. I've said this before on PoFo. Both parties have ignored this problem because it benefits the corporations that fund their campaigns and parties. It's a giant illegal fraud ring. I'll totally agree that someone like Trump and many of his supporters only go after the workers but not the employers. And then on the other side the Democrats (and supporters) more towards the left let the migrants breaking laws off the hook, including Democrat mayors and city reps. At least Obama was actually removing the illegal migrants that didn't belong while giving very reasonable asylum to people like the Dreamers.
#15128319
I've said this before on PoFo. Both parties have ignored this problem because it benefits the corporations that fund their campaigns and parties. It's a giant illegal fraud ring. I'll totally agree that someone like Trump and many of his supporters only go after the workers but not the employers. And then on the other side the Democrats (and supporters) more towards the left let the migrants breaking laws off the hook, including Democrat mayors and city reps. At least Obama was actually removing the illegal migrants that didn't belong while giving very reasonable asylum to people like the Dreamers.


When do we start? Tomorrow? Before the election? There are ten thousand or so border patrol and ICE agents. Saddle up guys. Start on Tuesday? Close down the packing plants in Pennsylvania. I dare the republicans to do it before the election. 'Cause you know the criminal Mes'kins are workin' there and stealin' our jobs!

Come on folks. None of us really wants 12 million mostly employed workers to leave. Why not do what Reagan did and realize that deporting these people would almost immediately tank our economy. Even with the unemployment we have today, do we really see armies of white people storming the farmers in the Imperial Valley looking for jobs picking lettuce? And how much would that salad cost if you had to pay the pickers $25.00 an hour. And in the middle of the epidemic let's shut down the housekeeping department of the majority of hospitals. That's a good idea.

To the people who want to enforce the immigration laws against ALL of the "criminal" hotel maids, farm workers, construction workers, and yes, doctors, nurses and engineers, I say this....Fuck you you lying bastards. You do not believe what you say. You cannot accept the consequences if someone decided to do what you piously advocate for. Your position is shallow and bordering on monumentally stupid. People come here for jobs. Take away the jobs and they stop coming. Take away all of the jobs and they get in their financed Buick, walk away from their mortgage, leave the guests to change their own beds and go home.
#15128323
Unthinking Majority wrote:I just did. Your claim has been invalidated: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325

U.S. Code § 1325 - Improper entry by alien

(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts

Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.


Note that this does not say it is a crime to be in the US illegally.

It says it is a crime to enter or attempt to enter illegally (which is not the same as being in the country illegally) and a crime to avoid inspections (which is not the same as being in the country illegally).

(b) Improper time or place; civil penalties: Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to enter) the United States at a time or place other than as designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty of—
(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or attempted entry); or
(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under this subsection.
Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be imposed.


Note that this deals with civil and not criminal law.

(c) Marriage fraud

Any individual who knowingly enters into a marriage for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or fined not more than $250,000, or both.


....which is not the same as being in the country illegally.
#15128333
Unthinking Majority wrote:This has been proven incorrect and thus will be ignored.


As much as I've been disliking him lately, he's not wrong here. It is not a crime to overstay your visa.

You will, however, be deported and be barred from entering legally again.
#15128354
Pants-of-dog wrote:Yes, you are assuming that all or most illegal migrants are criminals. This is the racism that I am pointing out in this thread. Your racist assumption is not a fact.

And once again you demonstrate your lack of reading comprehension, since I have never said anything remotely like that.
#15128356
wat0n wrote:As much as I've been disliking him lately, he's not wrong here. It is not a crime to overstay your visa.

You will, however, be deported and be barred from entering legally again.


It's not a "crime", but it's a civil offense, and it's against immigration law.

Simply "being in the US unlawfully aka without legal status" also isn't breaking any "criminal law", it depends on how you came in and why you stayed, many reasons of which are unlawful.

What actually matters is people following the law, and the law being enforced so that there isn't incentive to do so.
#15128359
Unthinking Majority wrote:It's not a "crime", but it's a civil offense, and it's against immigration law.

Simply "being in the US unlawfully aka without legal status" also isn't breaking any "criminal law", it depends on how you came in and why you stayed, many reasons of which are unlawful.

What actually matters is people following the law, and the law being enforced so that there isn't incentive to do so.


Yeah, they are breaking American law but it's not a violation of criminal law. Of course if they ever try to return they will be committing a crime as you showed.
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