Greek court rules that political party "Golden Dawn" is "criminal organization" - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15128417
ThirdTerm wrote:The verdict is in and Nikos Michaloliakos got a 13-year jail term. Following the murder of Greek musician Pavlos Fyssas seven years ago, the entire leadership was charged with running an organised crime syndicate.

He may not have been directly involved in the murder. 13 years seems like it may possibly be excessive.

I suspect there was not really any particular solid evidence linking him to any murders, but there may have been very weak evidence that was combined with circumstantial evidence of a past pattern of behavior that involved indirect facilitation and encouragement of violence.

I would like to see what the actual evidence was, if you have any links.

Some of these charges seem a little bit like "guilt by association". They were being charged with crimes they personally did not actually commit, because they were in a group and seen as "orchestrating" the crimes, even though that is somewhat questionable.

I'm thinking they might have gotten a raw deal, simply due to everyone hating them and widespread bias. (combined with loose associations to violence)
#15128420
Puffer Fish wrote:He may not have been directly involved in the murder. 13 years seems like it may possibly be excessive.

I suspect there was not really any particular solid evidence linking him to any murders, but there may have been very weak evidence that was combined with circumstantial evidence of a past pattern of behavior that involved indirect facilitation and encouragement of violence.

I would like to see what the actual evidence was, if you have any links.

Some of these charges seem a little bit like "guilt by association". They were being charged with crimes they personally did not actually commit, because they were in a group and seen as "orchestrating" the crimes, even though that is somewhat questionable.

I'm thinking they might have gotten a raw deal, simply due to everyone hating them and widespread bias. (combined with loose associations to violence)

Mafia bosses could argue the same thing (and frequently have). The leaders of such organisations may not personally commit these crimes themselves, but that does not exonerate them. After all, Mafia bosses don't like to get their hand dirty either. And some historians (David Irving, for example) have argued that Hitler was not guilty of the Holocaust, based on similar reasoning. No, this had to be nipped in the bud.
#15128448
noemon wrote:Murder, violence and beatings are valid reasons to ban the party as a criminal organisation.


I haven't read what the others wrote on this but I assume they are shouting voter suppression or whatever. Well, they are wrong. This just shows that rule of law exists in Greece and nobody is beyond the law. You can contrast it to Ukraine where similar organisations are roaming freely and attacking other politicians and regular people to frighten, coerce and extort. Well mostly to just steal and extort money.

Long story short, good for Greece.
#15128613
noemon wrote:Murder, violence and beatings are valid reasons to ban the party as a criminal organisation.

I know, but this individual was not actually accused of committing murder, violence, or beatings himself.

There is an implied guilt connection to those crimes here, and I'd like to see exactly what that evidence is.

Because it seems like it may have been very circumstantial.


JohnRawls wrote:This just shows that rule of law exists in Greece and nobody is beyond the law.

The idea of "rule of law" can sometimes be an irrelevant one, when those laws are open to a very broad degree of interpretation in high questionable ways.

This might not be an "obvious" crime.

I mean, based on what the evidence is, it might not be entirely appropriate the classify this as a crime. I mean in the way that most people would believe (if all the political bias were removed) and that those who originally passed the law would have intended.

Of course it should be a crime to direct someone else to commit a murder or physical assault, but what about when the evidence for that is not solid, and the case is entirely circumstantial, based on a pattern of coincidental connections to other crimes?
#15128626
noemon wrote:Murder, violence and beatings are valid reasons to ban the party as a criminal organisation.

To be honest, I'm surprised this didn't happen earlier. There was a Journeyman Pictures documentary I watched on them a few years back, and I wondered why the government wasn't doing enough to stop them. I'm all for free speech, but that doesn't include the right to engage in the type of violence they were engaging in. In other words, the government finally did the right thing and banned them.
#15128646
Puffer Fish wrote:I know, but this individual was not actually accused of committing murder, violence, or beatings himself.

There is an implied guilt connection to those crimes here, and I'd like to see exactly what that evidence is.

Because it seems like it may have been very circumstantial.



The idea of "rule of law" can sometimes be an irrelevant one, when those laws are open to a very broad degree of interpretation in high questionable ways.

This might not be an "obvious" crime.

I mean, based on what the evidence is, it might not be entirely appropriate the classify this as a crime. I mean in the way that most people would believe (if all the political bias were removed) and that those who originally passed the law would have intended.

Of course it should be a crime to direct someone else to commit a murder or physical assault, but what about when the evidence for that is not solid, and the case is entirely circumstantial, based on a pattern of coincidental connections to other crimes?


The idea of rule of law is never irrelevant. The more properly it is enforced, the more beneficial it is not just as judicial concept but as a social acceptance and economic benefactor multiplier.
#15128757
JohnRawls wrote:The idea of rule of law is never irrelevant.

I should rephrase.
The ideal of "rule of law" does not necessarily rest on exactly what the law is.

Those who think it does are only thinking in terms of simple concepts.


I am talking about a situation that does not match specifically what people's concepts of a law should be.
We are talking about taking a law, and people deciding what exactly is illegal after the fact.

It's not like they're taking a law and applying it in a straightforward way.
#15128784
Puffer Fish wrote:I know, but this individual was not actually accused of committing murder, violence, or beatings himself.


The leader was sentenced for running a criminal organisation as his underlings confessed to murders & beatings of immigrants at his and/or the organisation's orders.

Puffer Fish wrote:It's not like they're taking a law and applying it in a straightforward way.


They are.
#15137029
noemon wrote:The leader was sentenced for running a criminal organisation as his underlings confessed to murders & beatings of immigrants at his and/or the organisation's orders.

I don't think it's so simple as that.

If it was that simple, they wouldn't have had to rely on the charge of "a criminal organisation" to convict him.

If you order someone to attack someone else, that is still a crime. If you pay someone else money to follow someone else's orders, knowing that those orders will likely be to attack someone else, that is still a crime.

The fact they could not charge and convict him of an "actual" crime says a lot. (meaning something else besides a "criminal organization")

It seems like "criminal organization" here may have just implied guilt by association.

Where is the evidence he played any part in causing any attacks? (besides any publicly expressed opinions that should be protected by freedom of speech)
#15137056
Puffer Fish wrote:Where is the evidence he played any part in causing any attacks? (besides any publicly expressed opinions that should be protected by freedom of speech)


The evidence and testimonies have been submitted in court. 57 Golden Dawn members, MP's & leadership have been convicted of murder, assault, weapons possession and either running or participating in the criminal outfit.

More than 200 witness testimonies of Golden Dawn's criminal activities.

I grew up very close to the Golden Dawn Headquarters which are also very close to the Communist Headquarters in Piraeus. My school in downtown Piraeus was in walking distance from both locations and the city itself littered with commie hippies & GD hooligans, it was not possible to be raised there and not be socially involved with people that belonged to either organisation. Every single person knew that it's a "criminal outfit", they even advertised it themselves on several occasions.

Golden Dawn run the so-called "battalions". These battalions were used to beat up migrants and to help old people cross the street, carry their shopping, even babysit. They also had a helpline that people would either request help for old/sick "pure" Greeks and to report concentrations of migrants. That was a system that GD had developed & GD leadership herself was as open as it could be (that's quite a lot as Greeks are at least twice more open than westerners in these aspects) about the whole thing. Sometimes they synchronised with the police as well, as several GD members were security officers that liaised between GD and local police. It is no coincidence that the murderer of the rapper whispered in the arresting officer's ears : "I am Golden Dawn, brother".

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